I was in an 'interview' last night.

[ShooterMcGavin]

I am posting this just to share my experience. I'm sure I did not handle this perfectly, and I am open to critique or ideas from you.

I went out dancing last night and met a couple friends there. Because I dance with girls who did not know me, I do not carry when I am there. After dancing, 3 of us went out for a bite to eat. My male friend is 41, I am 30, and we were with a younger girl. As we walked out of the building, a scrappy looking guy (black, prob mid-30s) started asking questions about the building from 30 feet away. I answered "I don't know" and turned to walk with my friends. I immediately took my wallet out of my back pocket and put it into my front pocket. As we walked away, he followed, gaining on us (off to the side) and talking to us the whole time. My friend continued talking to me, in order to give the guy the impression that we were not interested in his conversation. I was in the middle of my friends and the guy approached us, closest to my male friend. When he was about 15 feet away and still talking, he finally yelled "hey, I'm talking to you - don't ignore me". I responded "we are not talking to you - leave". He walked over to us (a wall behind us) and started getting aggitated. I put my OC in my left hand and pulled my male friend away from the guy (my girl friend was standing a couple steps behind me). He started yelling at me because I wouldn't talk to him and he made some racial comments like "you don't need to listen to me because I'm just a dumb n*****, right?". He displayed his fake front teeth by letting the "dentures" drop to his bottom jaw. I put my knife in my right hand, still folded with my thumb on the 'stud', and he asked "are you a cop?". I told him "you need to back away from us now!". He went on to say "I'm walking to my bus stop" and I said "then go". We walked for a couple steps, kinda sideways to watch him, as he followed (beside us, not behind), and then he went ahead of us. I put my knife away and kept my OC in my hand for the whole walk.

I think this guy was looking for some easy prey. I also think that he started to consider that, since I had an unknown object in each hand, I might be a little more prepared than the regular person/people he encounters on that street. We also had numbers on our side, but I don't know where his friends were hiding. In hindsight, I think I should have opened my knife quietly and kept it hidden behind my leg. I hate the thought of using a knife, but not nearly as much as the possible alternatives.

Afterwards, I talked to the girl who was with us, and she told me that she was not very concerned. I told her that a "lucky"/well-placed punch can be traumatic, had he made an attack... or, what if he used brass knuckles, or a knife?

I suspect I will hear advice along the lines of "you should have kept him at a distance". That is good advice in an ideal world, however, I don't understand that strategy very well. How?? When there are friends with me (especially a girl), I can't expect everyone to take off running with me. If I tell him "don't come closer", then how do you back that up? Even IF I had my gun on me, you can't draw on someone because "he would not stop when I ordered him to stay X feet away".

I will be avoiding that area from now on, unfortunately, my girl friend lives there. Thoughts are welcome. Take care, everyone.

 

[walking arsenal]

A knife is a lot better than OC i think.

I also think you handled it pretty well. Hopefully there never is a next time but if there is I would recommend not filling both of your hands. You might need one for grappling and you'd have to drop one of your weapons to do that, giving the BG access to one of your weapons.

 

[35Rem]

I would think OC a better tool than a knife, especially not knowing what the perp was going to do.
Distance is your friend, which you can't have when using a knife.

 

[308win]

Depending on the circumstances one may not have a lot of distance with OC either. And, if the threat is rapidly closing the distance he will be on you before the OC takes affect assuming you get in in his face.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

I also think you handled it pretty well. Hopefully there never is a next time but if there is I would recommend not filling both of your hands. You might need one for grappling and you'd have to drop one of your weapons to do that, giving the BG access to one of your weapons.

Thanks. I agree and also thought about the issue with having both hands full. I was ready to spray and drop the OC; the knife stays with me. That's a likely option, since I had a friend with another set of free hands. He knows I carry OC and he did not have anything defensive readily available. If I were alone, things would have been different, but then I would also have the RUN-option.

I would think OC a better tool than a knife, especially not knowing what the perp was going to do.
Distance is your friend, which you can't have when using a knife.

I do agree that distance is my friend in any encounter. That was a luxury which had passed and, after reading much about OC, I do not want to rely too heavily upon it. I simply consider that OC will give me a good advantage, under ideal circumstances. I think OC is unlikely to end any determined attacks without some serious help.

Re: "not knowing what the perp was going to do"...
You are right. I never saw any weapons, but there's no telling what he can carry in his large jacket pockets.

 

[BullfrogKen]

ShooterMcGavin said: If I tell him "don't come closer", then how do you back that up? Even IF I had my gun on me, you can't draw on someone because "he would not stop when I ordered him to stay X feet away".

Quite the dilemna, isn't it?


I usually refrain from offering, "this is what I do" advice because what works for one person may or may not work for someone else. Each individual must develop his or her own personalized responses to deal with a situation, and that's driven by our own style, presence, and interpersonal skills.

Obviously we can't stab, shoot, or spray someone just because he's acting like an ___hole with no manners. What I hear you asking is what can we do in that grey area when someone is acting rudely and aggresively, but hasn't yet given us the justification to respond with force.


Well, you need to get more information about that person. Using verbal commands like, "Stop! Back up! Stay away from me!" don't accomplish that well. I'm not suggesting they don't have their place, but they don't give you more information.

Let's analyze what he did. He asked you a question designed to put you on the defensive, and give him an upper hand. "You don't need to listen to me because I'm just a dumb n*****, right?" I like to ask questions back, designed to do the same thing. Again, it's not appropriate when you have enough information to know the guy has announced himself as a threat. A question like, "You must not have heard me. I can't help you. You weren't planning to rob us, were you?" spoken in a firm, direct tone can give you that information. It communicates you recognize he's acting rudely, you have interpreted his behavior as hostile, and you're putting him on notice.

Now watch for clues. Does he deny it? Does he shift something in his pockets or waistband? He may think you saw his hidden weapon and is readjusting it. Does he glance someplace else? He might be checking to see if his buddies are in place for the attack yet. Does his behavior get more aggressive when confronted with that question?

The clues he will display gives you information. Maybe he is just a jerk, and will move to clear up the misunderstanding. If he doesn't, you know he's comfortable letting you think that about him. Maybe he is about to jack you up, maybe he's not; but you do know he's comfortable letting you think he might.


Trying to leave . . . If he moves to occlude your path, you have more information. That behavior is rude, and he's relying upon you being polite and not addressing it. If you get by him and he pursues you, again it's rude and interpretted as hostile in a civil society. Confront him with it. "I can't help you, and I need to be someplace. Why do you insist on trying to stop me?" Again, don't just listen to his response. Watch for clues.


If you've exhausted your attempts to leave, and told him how you've interpretted his behavior, and he still insists on acting like a jerk, then its time for an ultimatum. By this point, if you haven't gotten enough information to know what he's up to, it's time to tell him what you're prepared to do. Again, this all assumes he is still engaging you in rude behavior, but hasn't yet played his hand as to his intentions, or initiated an attack.

Communicate to him how his behavior is being interpretted, and that you are prepared to respond to it. I'll leave that up to you. Those messages really are personal, and what I say and do might not work for you. If it comes across like a bluff, or you can't communicate it convincingly, it's not going to work in your favor. I will comment that the most convincing messages are delivered with self-control, without a raised voice, and with the appearance that the defender is entirely comfortable if the encounter has to get resolved with force.

He may decide he wants to continue, and isn't dissuaded by you. You have to be prepared for that. Try again to leave. A shoulder push or some kinds of non-violent, hands-on control to move an aggressor insistent on blocking your path can be quite effective in this last attempt to leave. Again, I'm discussing an encounter that hasn't gone past an interview yet. If he's going to move the encounter into a criminal act, this will be when it happens. If he lets you leave, then LEAVE quickly. Don't hang around, ignore the taunts, but do watch to see if he moves into Expressive Violence. He's lost the advantage he had for Instrumental Violence, because you escaped from the trap he may have been trying to set up. But if he's become angered, or has friends there he needs to impress, he may initiate violence. If that happens he was probably going to do that anyway, but at least you're not in the hole.


No technique is fool proof. There are no secrets, or right answers. You got away unharmed. Good for you. I've simply suggested some things that might help you bridge that gap between rudeness, which doesn't justify force, to the point where force becomes justified.

 

[azredhawk44]

BullFrogKen: That was one of the most lucid and constructive posts I've read in a long time. Thank you.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

BullFrogKen: That was one of the most lucid and constructive posts I've read in a long time. Thank you.

Absolutely! Thank you BullFrog!

You raised some very good questions, as well as possible motives for a "jerk's" behavior and how to assess them.

Communicate to him how his behavior is being interpretted, and that you are prepared to respond to it.

That is a very good point - much better than "go/stay away".

In your outline, you seem to have a theme of "keep talking". Maybe more to the point is "keep HIM talking"? That seems appropriate, since you are trying to gain information; I have read that one's reaction time is slower if they are talking. If the conversation stops, you stop learning about the situation, and he has time to think or plan his next move. Is that one of the desired components (whether directly or indirectly)?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Thanks azredhawk44.

ShooterMcGavin said: In your outline, you seem to have a theme of "keep talking". . . Is that one of the desired components (whether directly or indirectly)?

No. The point is communication.

"STOP! Gimme twenty feet! Back off!", isn't communication. It's yapping. I guess that sort of behavior does communicate to the aggressor; it gives him clues about you. One thing it will communicate is you aren't comfortable with him being that close to you. That might prove useful infomation to a Violent Criminal Actor.

The goal of the interview is to size you up.


What does a shark do before it bites? It bumps. VCA's looking to commit Instrumental Violence bump first. What can we do during the interview process to gain more information about suspected intentions that we haven't confirmed yet? Do what he does. Bump first. What can we do during the interview to let him know we are onto him, and clearly communicate we aren't going to be easy prey for him? Bump back.

Again, you have to know when this is appropriate and when it's not. You've got to develop the right presence and social skills to effectively carry it out. It might work to dissuade the VCA from continuing. It might not. That's the honest answer. Anyone who tries to sell you something that sounds like magic is giving you smoke and mirrors.


It certainly does serve to break his "tape loop". VCA's expect certain kinds of behavior from their victims. "When I do this, he's going to do this, and back up into here. Now you do that and I'll pull XXXXX and we'll rob him." When you don't do what they expect, they have to adjust and re-orient to you. It might or might not dissuade them, but it will give you clues if they press on. And if you sieze the small window of opportunity while they re-adjust their plan, you can gain the initiative and work things to take away their advantage. It doesn't mean you'll win. It means you'll give yourself more options to win.

 

[sacp81170a]

BullfrogKen:

Great points!

Does he glance someplace else?

Could be checking for friends, could be checking his escape route. Is he giving you the "targeting glance"? IOW, is he checking to see what you have in your hands? You allude to it, but don't really say. Did he lock eyes with you at some point to see if you would look away? This is often a check for submissiveness. The way to react to that is the "scan". Don't look away suddenly, just make eye contact long enough to let him know you did, then "slide" your glance around a little, look him up and down, check his body and hand position, etc. This communicates readiness and a lack of fear. The eyes tell you a whole bunch about these guys...

When he dropped his front teeth down, was he watching to see if you were shocked? This guy was probing big time. Good show for not backing down an staying with him. Interviews can take several minutes and if the BG senses he can wear you down he may eventually attack. Don't retreat, but don't get overly aggressive; understand that this is very much a chess match.

 

[Bezoar]

The act of checking and restoring your wallet in front of someone you consider to be a likely attacker is STUPID. Merely reinforcing his notion that he picked good targets.

You seem to infer that you can legally carry a handgun with you, but choose to leave it at home when you go dancing with strange women? If you are concerned about your own safety enough to go about the hassle of getting the permits to carry a handgun, why would you leave it at home when you go to a nightclub? Didnt anyone tell you bars and nightclubs have a higher percentage of muggings and violent crime?

That doesnt hold for all nightclubs, but just watching my local news here in michigan, theres always a shooting or mugging at the local nightclubs. Typically afterhours when everyone is drunk and easier pickings for stronghand tactics.

 

[Linda]

Afterwards, I talked to the girl who was with us, and she told me that she was not very concerned.

Everyone has covered your side of it very well, especially Bullfrog. But this comment concerns me greatly. She is a sheep, waiting to become a victim of a wolf AKA this guy. If she had been alone, how would she have handled the situation? If she is a friend, you need to educate her and turn her into a sheepdog, or someday you may be reading about her in the headline news, in a bad way.

Love your signature line ShooterMcGavin and totally agree with it. Now, go use it on your female friend!

 

[ilbob]

I am not a big fan of knives for SD. Short blades make them convenient to carry, but you have to get real close to use them. Plus a heavy leather coat can be enough to be almost knife proof. Not a guarantee, but it makes it really tough on the knifer. I think OC is usually going to be a much better SD choice then a small knife, as you have the advantage of at least some distance. A knife is useless unless you are within touching distance and that is way too close.

I agree with the "get the hell out of there as fast as possible" approach. It may not be very satisfying, but it is a whole lot safer.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Quote:
Does he glance someplace else?

Could be checking for friends, could be checking his escape route. Is he giving you the "targeting glance"? IOW, is he checking to see what you have in your hands? You allude to it, but don't really say. Did he lock eyes with you at some point to see if you would look away? This is often a check for submissiveness. The way to react to that is the "scan". Don't look away suddenly, just make eye contact long enough to let him know you did, then "slide" your glance around a little, look him up and down, check his body and hand position, etc. This communicates readiness and a lack of fear. The eyes tell you a whole bunch about these guys...

When he dropped his front teeth down, was he watching to see if you were shocked? This guy was probing big time. Good show for not backing down an staying with him. Interviews can take several minutes and if the BG senses he can wear you down he may eventually attack. Don't retreat, but don't get overly aggressive; understand that this is very much a chess match.

I did not see him looking in any other directions besides at us. His eyes stayed on us the whole time (either my friend or myself). There was no question that he knew I was preparing myself, and that I had 'things' in my hands. Before he was within 15 feet, I had reached my hand inside my coat pocket for the OC. Inside of 10 feet, I also had my knife in the other hand. I'd guess that he didn't quite know what was in my hands.

We did 'lock' eyes for a while (it seemed like "a while"). My eyes never left his eyes, even when he glanced between my friend and I. One good suggestion you brought up is scanning him up and down. I did not do that, and it could have better prepared me for his next move. It certainly would have made me a better witness if I had to later give a description.

When he dropped his front teeth down, he might have been looking for a reaction. However, he got nothing from me. I stayed fixed on his eyes without any expression on my face.

His demeanor did change during the encounter. As he was getting closer to us, he was very aggressive and loud. When he realized that I had something in each of my hands, he asked if I was a cop. I did not confirm or deny that. At that point, he got much quieter and gave us more space. After I told him to keep walking to his bus stop, he replied "I'm walking with you". I responded, "no, you are not walking with us". I think he was kinda playing it off like he was just a jerk. He left us at that point.

The act of checking and restoring your wallet in front of someone you consider to be a likely attacker is STUPID.

Please don't 'sugar-coat' your feelings (sarcasm)
It was dark where we were walking and he was under a street light. When I moved my wallet, he was still more than 30 feet away from us. It is very unlikely that he knew what the object was and he probably didn't even recognize the small movement I made.

You seem to infer that you can legally carry a handgun with you, but choose to leave it at home when you go dancing with strange women? If you are concerned about your own safety enough to go about the hassle of getting the permits to carry a handgun, why would you leave it at home when you go to a nightclub? Didnt anyone tell you bars and nightclubs have a higher percentage of muggings and violent crime?

I was not at a nightclub - I was attending a dancing class. That is one reason that I would be dancing with "strange women", and also why I did not feel the need for defense as much as I would in a bar or nightclub (guns are not legal within bars in my state either). I am in a liberal area, and I am sensitive to the reaction of others regarding guns. Sometimes (not all the time), when girls who are not very familiar with me will be touching my waist, I avoid carrying briefly.
I had also come directly from work that evening, another place that prohibits guns even within one's car (while on their property).

...this comment concerns me greatly. She is a sheep, waiting to become a victim of a wolf AKA this guy. If she had been alone, how would she have handled the situation? If she is a friend, you need to educate her and turn her into a sheepdog, or someday you may be reading about her in the headline news, in a bad way.

Love your signature line ShooterMcGavin and totally agree with it. Now, go use it on your female friend!

Thanks Linda!! I completely agree with you. I have talked to her (and will continue to talk to her) about self defense and preparation. I took her to the range last weekend, taught her how to handle a couple guns, and she did great!! We had a blast ...I am working on educating her. I have offered to help her get a house-gun, but I don't want to force the issue that she "must" carry a gun with her.
"If she had been alone, how would she have handled the situation?" That is the crux of the issue. Even though we talked about it, I will bring that point up again.

I am not a big fan of knives for SD.

I agree with your comments.

Thanks, all!

 

[jlbraun]

when girls who are not very familiar with me will be touching my waist, I avoid carrying briefly.

www.smartcarry.com

Go to YouTube and search "smartcarry"

 

[atk]

jklbraun,

while smartcarry works in certain situations (and I have two of their holsters), it doesn't work for everything. I do ballroom dancing, and pretty much every part of my body is in contact with my partner, at some point or another.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Well, for everyone telling us how we need to have a gun on us to solve problems . . . . the way I read this McGavin was able to solve the problem without it. The gun is just a tool. Our minds solve the problem.

I think you did a good job, McGavin. Good show.


ilbob,

Yes, knives do put us at a disadvantage because we have to get close to use them. But fights often get real close. People who intend to do bad things to us have to get within touching distance to do it. We don't get held up from across the street. A knife can be a terribly destructive weapon, even moreso than a handgun.

Some of the knife training I took never focused on strikes to the torso. Defensive blows were delivered to major muscle groups, with the legs being the primary target. OC has it's place. So do knives. Neither is better or worse than the other. Different options, different applications, different missions.

 

[sm]

ShooterMcGavin,
Excellent thread, thank you for posting.
I think you handled it well

BullfrogKen,
I sincerely appreciate your excellent posted replies.

 

[strambo]

I think you handled it pretty well. Open ended questions or leading questions ("I answered your question, are you going to attack us or leave us alone?" -said in calm, confident voice) can help put a stop to the verbal game they are trying to play and get to the point.

I think this guy was looking for some easy prey. I also think that he started to consider that, since I had an unknown object in each hand, I might be a little more prepared than the regular person/people he encounters on that street.

This could be true, but be careful how much of you "logic" you attribute to the "other guy".

You put a knife in your hand. If this is a semi-logical mugger acting semi-reasonably in his best interest, then if he thinks you are prepared he will move on. If he attacks, then it is because he thinks he still has the advantage (gun, knife, backup you don't see, or he didn't notice your knife). In any case, if he attacks (being the somewhat logical criminal), then your deadly force is justified and necessary.

But...what if he is just a crazy? Or on drugs, or both? These people don't think in ways logical people can relate to. If he is worked up and crazy, you have no way of knowing his true motivation (does he even?) so, your being prepared for an attack is useless in deterring him. He may still inexorably come closer even if you have a gun pointed at him. Tough situation, but you could just end up stabbing a crazy homeless guy who only wanted to blow off some stream and ask for change.

The point is; don't get too myopic with always attributing criminal motivations to these encounters and expecting somewhat logical criminal reactions. What would you do if he just kept walking towards you talking crazy, but not reaching for a weapon/demanding money? Very, very, tough judgment call...

I've dealt with lots 'o crazies...so I'm used to it. I try to be always alert and ready for a sudden attack, always aware they may not react logically and aware their motivation may not be logical, discernable or even of this world. If you can walk away, do...if not, it will be some interesting "conversation" trying to de-escalate without setting them off.

 

[jlbraun]

atk, I have done ballroom, swing, tango, and contra wearing a CZ P-01 in a Smartcarry. No one noticed.

 

[the naked prophet]

This thread is chock full of information. One more thing if I could add to it is this: no weapon or deterrent in your hands - whether OC or a knife or wahtever - is going to be of any use if your hands are down in your pockets or by your sides if you get sucker punched. Keep your hands up near your chest, where they can be quickly deployed to block a punch to your face or chest/abdomen. After that, you can deploy OC or a knife. If you've got OC and a knife in your hands, and you get punched in the nose, you won't be able to effectively use either of them.

 

[Ruprex]

If you're asking for true advice...carry a gun. regardless of your situation, you should be carrying. Period. I say you're lucky that jerky didn't laugh at your knife and pull a pop-gun of his own. my opinion.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Handled very well. The fact is, some state laws do not allow you to carry everywhere. In Ohio, I could not carry into an Applebee's legally, as they have a Class D liquor license for consumption on-property. What if I were to get into this situation on the way to the car? Some would argue that I should carry despite the foolish laws against it. Getting caught carrying in spite of the restriction is jail-time.

The largest thing this illustrates is what was said earlier. The most important defensive weapon is your brain. Everything else is a tool to be used. If you don't or can't have one tool, use the next best thing. Carry a firearm when you can, a knife and OC when you can't, and above all, keep your wits.

Bullfrog, that was good info. Keep it coming. With all of the experience this site's members have, we can continue to learn and teach.

 

[strambo]

I could not carry into an Applebee's legally

I've been to a couple in different states lately...their food has gone downhill, no loss! The "places that serve alcohol" restrictions are pretty silly, especially when it places entire restaurants off limits. Glad our state doesn't...no extra troubles with CCW holders even though we can go into bars and schools (oh my ).

 

[jlbraun]

My point was that the OP shouldn't feel he has to disarm when dancing, NOT "you moron, you should have carried a gun!".