"I was trying to blow his brains out is what I was trying to do"

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When .380 or 9mm IS ENOUGH

MICHAEL T says: no one would use such a sorry caliber as a 380,or a 9mm in self defense.

TheFederalistWeasel says: it's all about shot placement.


TheFederalistWeasel is correct. With the right shot placement you can dispatch someone with a .22 cal. just as easily as with a .45cal. or .357mag.

My very good friend and fellow Vietnam veteran, who served with me as a medic with the 5th Special Forces Group, and just happens to be my son's father-in-law, was shot in the head by a sniper with a AK47. The bullet entered just behind his ear and exited through his mouth! Plenty of "caliber", the shot placement just wasn't "right" and I think it just wasn't his time. He recovered and did a second tour.

TheFederalistWeasel says: This Hollywood philosophy that a gun can actually knock down the target is absurd.

Have you ever actually seen someone get shot? Unlike Hollywood, they don't clutch their chest and fall gently to the ground. If you think it's not so bad, get some body armor and let someone shoot you in the chest with a .45 or .357 and see if it knocks you off your feet. You'll think you've been kicked by a horse!
Only speaking from experience. I was shot twice, I know exactly how it feels.

Riverrat66
 
Out of all my training and experience you’re the first person to describe it as being kicked by a horse.

Being in Law Enforcement I’ve watched so many tapes of deadly force incidents, I’ve lost count, they all seem to mirror the accepted principals, and most don’t even know they’ve been shot until it’s over unless something very vital is hit.

I had the chance to personally talk to an FBI agent who was shot 6 times with a .38 and he did not feel a thing until his leg gave away. The last round broke his pelvis and he fell from it.

He told me that he was sure he was going to die. He was bleeding badly from four rounds to the chest, one to the gut and one to the pelvis.

He said he felt no pain and through out the gunfight he never felt a single round hit him, even the one that broke his pelvis, he only felt the pain when he hit the ground after his leg gave out.

Two shooting incidents involving cops with vests, none felt them actual bullet impact, one guy was shot point blank with a .40 caliber.

A convenience store robbery gunman is shot by storeowner with 30-30 rifle guy runs outside, crosses four lanes of traffic is hit by a car and lives, said he thought the guy missed him.

Bullet missed his heart by mere inches,
 
When .380 or 9mm IS ENOUGH

and most don’t even know they’ve been shot until it’s over unless something very vital is hit.
And I'll bet "most" were high on something.

agent who was shot 6 times with a .38 and he did not feel a thing
I've known men who lost limbs and felt no pain.

He said he felt no pain and through out the gunfight he never felt a single round hit him,
Adrenaline is a key factor, especially in a stressful situation as a gunfight or firefight.

Two shooting incidents involving cops with vests, none felt them actual bullet impact, one guy was shot point blank with a .40 caliber.
Well, if you say so.....

robbery gunman is shot by storeowner with 30-30 rifle guy runs outside, crosses four lanes of traffic is hit by a car and lives, said he thought the guy missed him. Bullet missed his heart by mere inches,
And what was he high on? In the Korean War, the Chinese were known to wrap themselves tightly in bandages so if they were shot, the bullet would pass threw them and they could continue to fight, as long as it didn't hit any vital areas.

You take a 350lb. man and he's going to react differently than a 175lb. man whose been shot by the same gun in the same area. That bullet may knock the 175 pounder on his backside while it doesn't even phase the 350 pounder. You take a 150 lb. Vietnamese man whose loaded on opium and shoot him three times and it takes him 20 minutes to realize that he's dead. Unless you put one in his head and one in his heart.

You're more of an expert then I am. I only know what I've actually experienced and that was many many years ago. And memories fade with time. My recollections may be fading with time also. It's funny how we try desperately to forget about the horrors of war but need to remember them at the same time.

Riverrat66
 
Again, your goal is to stop, not kill. Any death is incidental. Utter the words "kill," "death," or "lethal" to anyone after a defense-related shooting and the attorneys will eat you alive.
Click to expand...

So, Mr. Labe, you did not intend to kill my client's husband? Why then, Sir, did you fire your handgun into his head at point-blank range?

Did you not realize this would kill him? Or did you not mean to fire your weapon? Was it a mistake? An accidental discharge? No?

Then, were you attempting to merely wound my client's husband? Because you were not truly in fear of your life?

Or were you lying to the Police when you stated that you didn't "shoot to kill"?
 
I love it when violent unlawful weapon wielding bad guys get shot and killed by lawful gun toting citizens. :)
 
If that account of the crime up there is accurate, I can't really sympathize with the store owners.

Shooting in self-defense is one thing; killing a criminal once the apparent threat has subsided is another. I'm not going to pass complete judgment yet, but I'm not gonna jump to congratulate the owners either--"I was trying to blow his brains out"? :uhoh:
 
Again - duplicate threads merged.

This is the fifth time today that I've had to merge threads on this single subject!!! :cuss: :fire: :banghead:

PLEASE, folks, check to see whether a story has been posted elsewhere before starting a new thread about it!!! Between Roundtable, General Gun Discussions, Legal & Political, and Strategies & Tactics, you'll normally be able to find it. If it's not in any of those forums, OK, go ahead and post.
 
Geez Preacherman, with your outrageous salary you should enjoy merging threads. :D

We need to keep tract of this and see if a wrongful death suit is filed.
 
Funny that an officer wouldn't feel getting shot.

I spoke to an officer on a vice squad here in Las Vegas. He had taken one to the left-front side of his rib cage. The vest stopped the bullet, but the broken ribs put him out of action for a few weeks.

He said he noticed the sharp impact first and thought somone had hit him with a blunt instrument. He mentioned that just after that, other officers were dropping and taking cover. Thats when he realized he'd been shot.
Didn't know about the broken ribs till the parameds took a look and told him.

I'd guess the "getting kicked by a horse" comment would be about accurate. I personally, have never been kicked by a horse or shot...I'd like to keep it that way.
 
If only all BG's had a malfunction like this at a time like that we could save a lot of tax money...
Rehabilitation through reincarnation works. :)
Ken
 
From carpettbaggerr
So, Mr. Labe, you did not intend to kill my client's husband? Why then, Sir, did you fire your handgun into his head at point-blank range?

Did you not realize this would kill him? Or did you not mean to fire your weapon? Was it a mistake? An accidental discharge? No?

Then, were you attempting to merely wound my client's husband? Because you were not truly in fear of your life?

Or were you lying to the Police when you stated that you didn't "shoot to kill"?
Click to expand...
As I stated before, your deceased client entered my place of business and threatened me with a handgun. I was in fear of my life and I shot the suspect with the intent of stopping his actions. Why do I have to keep explaining my actions over to you? State law states I can defend myself if a reasonable person would consider me in fear of my life. Your client threatened me with a handgun and so I shot him. What else do you want to know?

Oh, but the lawyer would have to ask one more time right? "Were you trying to kill my client or not?" My response, "I repeat myself, I was in fear of my life and I shot Mr. Badguy in order to stop his actions."

I would like to see a judge force me to answer that question or my lawyer not rip the other lawyer a new one for being so stupid.

There is a reason why people who might have to shoot people are trained to state, "I was in fear of my life and so I shot suspect so and so, aiming for center mass, with the intent of stopping their actions." It is because that statement wins in court. If you want to debate the kill vs. stop thing, go for it. You are obviously a better lawyer than the thousands of lawyers who advise their clients successfully in lawful shooting cases all across the country. :rolleyes:
 
Rural Ga

My sister lives about 15 miles away from where this happened. I talked to her tonight and she says thats all ANYBODY talked about in the area ALL day.

She also said this is REAL hard core rural GA - where 90% of the inhabitants have a gun in reach at all times (on them/in the house/in the truck etc).

She can't believe the BG's where so stupid to try a job in this locale - it was like standing in the middle of the street, taking a leak on the 'Stars and Bars' and begging openly to get shot.

She thinks they would have been better off trying to do a convenience store in Atlanta. :D She's also of the opinion a successful civil suit has the same chance as the Dem's taking Georgia in '08 :evil:
 
Taken from a similar thread at AR15.com, I thought a bit funny:


Just think how that 911 call went.

"Hello, 911 emergency."

"Yes two men BANG! are trying to rob BANG! our store and are shooting at us."

"Where are you?"

"Im behind BANG! the register. Hang on, I gotta reload. Just get here as Bang! quick as you can ok? I think my husband got hit."

"Is he bleeding?"

"I think hes BANG! ok, it was a small pot BANG! roast. Just get here please?"

:D
 
A word to the wise: Though it may be heartfelt, never utter the words "kill," "death," or "lethal" to anyone after you have justifiably defended yourself. As an example, do not tell the detectives, "They were threatening my life, and in an act of self defense I killed them." Never use the word "kill," as it can be used against you in court. And especially don’t say you were trying to blow his brains out! If you feel you must say something to the detectives, tell them, "They were threatening my life, and in an act of self defense I stopped them." Again, your goal is to stop, not kill. Any death is incidental. Utter the words "kill," "death," or "lethal" to anyone after a defense-related shooting and the attorneys will eat you alive.
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I don't know about Ohio, but in the state of Georgia you have the lawful right to self-defense. If someone brandishes a deadly weapon and threatens you, you have the RIGHT to use lethal force no questions asked. I realize that you are trying to give helpful advice about someone saying something that might get them in trouble, but considering the circumstances these individuals encountered, one would be making a mistake to not try and outright kill their aggressors.

How can a government convict lawfull citizens who were getting threatened and shot at for the sake of some armed robbers lives, and at the same time take a citizens right to self-defense seriously? They can't and any state that commits such crimes of justice isn't worthy to govern. My point is simply that they did what was right and saying so doesn't make them guilty of anything other than bieng honest. If a police officer even so much as has a gun pointed in their direction they WILL shoot to kill or be a fool for not doing so IMHO. Just had to say it, Kudos to those honorable shop keepers!
 
If a bad guy walks in your place of business armed that alone should be justification for you to use lethal force IMHO.
 
If a police officer even so much as has a gun pointed in their direction they WILL shoot to kill or be a fool for not doing so IMHO.
Click to expand...
You aren't quite getting it Domino. If you shoot to "kill", that could potentially show that you had some sort of intention of killing the subject. If you want to kill someone, that could be called murder or manslaughter. Think of this as a semantics issue.

Now instead of shooting someone to kill them, you shoot them only to stop their actions. Of course you shoot for center mass as you have been trained to do. Everyone here knows that when you shoot someone center mass, there is a good chance you might kill them. However, this is different semantically than wanting to kill someone. You see, semantics matter in a court of law. If you state you shot the suspect because you were in fear of your life and you only wanted to stop their actions, it isn't your fault if they die. You didn't want them to die, you just wanted them to stop their actions.

If you state you wanted to kill the SOB or blow his head off, it can be implied that you were acting for reasons other than self-defense. A tricky DA or smooth civil lawyer can use those words against you. Sure you probably won't face criminal charges, but get ready to pay for a possible civil case.

What people seem to fail to understand is that if you shoot someone, your livlihood could be in jeopardy. Why even risk it by making a foolish statement? Stick to the common line that lawyers tell police and correctional officers to use when they shoot someone in the line of duty. "I was afraid for my life and so in order to stop the person's actions, I shot at him/her, aiming for center mass. I have no further comments until I speak to my lawyer."

I know it sounds stupid because we all know it will probably kill them, but again, when you are in the court room and you have a lawyer handy to defend you, you are much better off with the stop statement rather than a "I wanted to blow his head off" statement. Sure in rurual Georgia you might have a hard time finding a civil jury who is going to rule against you, unless they are able to change the venue to Atlanta in order to get a fair trial (I don't know if they can do that in a civil trial, but again, better safe than sorry).

One more time just to make this as clear as I can. Anyone who gets in a shootout will probably shoot for center mass. We all understand that shooting someone center mass as many times as it takes to get them to stop their life threatening actions will very likely kill that person. No one is saying to shoot to wound. What we are saying is after you are done shooting the person and they have stopped their actions, don't tell the media or the cops anything other than you wanted to stop that person's actions. If you tell them anything else, you might be placing yourself in a situation to be charged with criminal charges (probably unlikely) or taken to civil court (very likely). The act of defending yourself should not only be considered in a physical sense, but in a legal sense as well. Key word considered and preferabley before hand. When the crap hits the fan, survive! Once its done, think legal survival, best achieved by keeping your mouth shut.
 
Hopefully they won't face any retaliation from other criminals, or worse yet, lawyers.
Click to expand...
There's a reason so many layers say they practice "Criminal Law".
"I was trying to blow his brains out is what I was trying to do."
Click to expand...
The Warrior Spirit WILL prevail.

Yeah, yeah, maybe she shouldn't have said it outloud but good for her that she was thinking it. It's about time that muggers, burgulars and rapists realize that there is a dang good possibility that they're going to run into somebody with this exact mindset.

Personally, it looks to me like he didn't have many brains to blow out.


"If you put you brain on the edge of a razorblade it'd look like a BB rolling down a four lane highway. Ohhh I say the (guy's) not too sharp." John Nitzinger, Texas Jellyroll Blues
 
I would love to know the criminals last thought "CRAP these old farts have guns".
Click to expand...

LOmofoL!!! :p

Yeah, I DO like thinking about the death throes of this kind of scumbag would-be murderer. I LIKE thinking that they're panicked and terrified and all confused and discombobulated when their victims, whom they thought would go down easy, end up killing THEM! I hope the last instant of each of their lives was painful and full of terror and worry and fear.

Hey, so much for the philosophy of your friend vindi c, who would have claimed that this older couple could have "easily disarmed" the two perps who had guns. Surely this couple didn't have to "waste human life!"

LOL! I love it when people like him can't see a difference between the value of a good, honest human life and a predatory, malevolent, violent criminal human life, and try to make us believe that they have equal worth.

Clearly, they do not.

-Jeffrey
 
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