I was wrong...we are failing in Iraq...

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I'm certainly not lower class. Tooting my own horn for a minute, I'm intelligent, a computer science major, and before the infantry, I worked as a part time network administrator.

No one ever said that there were not intelligent people in the lower classes. I am in the lowest financial class of all (biological researchers), and I am at least as smart as the average Congressman. The point is that as Machiavelli pointed out, having ALL the military force in a society concentrated in a professional mercenary force is a certain recipe for tyranny. The Founding Fathers were extremely concerned about this.

As far as the upper classes go, they don't tend to join the infantry. They tend to find positions in the Fed, the IMF, corporations that receive large tax subsidies etc.
 
(RatFink) telomerase and mercedesrules are great poster children (for) what the extreme of that political leaning can bring, similar to the way that extreme Left = Communism and extreme Right = Fascism.
What? :confused:
 
I know that, my point was to illustrate that many would consider the infantry "below my station in life", especially my mother.

His comment was insulting, and I was trying to illustrate the flawed thought.


James
 
(HBK) He said you guys were great poster children (for) what the extreme of that political leaning can bring, similar to the way that extreme Left = Communism and extreme Right = Fascism.
:D Haha!
I really don't know what he meant, but I am a poster child for extreme individual liberty - nothing more.

MR
 
No, what I WANT to hear is that the US has gone to a Swiss-style militia system and is defended by citizen-soldiers rather than lower-class slave mercenaries who will kill anyone the President orders them to.

What I and many others want to hear is you retract the above statement.

You just might want to check your "facts"-because you are missing a lot.

The Reserve and National Guard comprise a lot of the total components which round out active military units. In some, such as the military's airlift formations, it is almost entirely reserve/ National Guard.

If you stand by your above statement, its pretty clear you never wore the uniform, and I'm not sure you possess the dignity to.
 
Marines don't wear unit patches on utility uniforms, but they do wear the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor on everything...which is suspiciously absent in that photo.

EGA would be on the left-breast pocket of the uniform blouse which is hidden under the flak jacket.

He must have his boonie cap on backwards eh?

No eagle globe and anchor.

EGA is not present on the desert tri-color boonie cover as there are stitch lines around it that make it difficult to cleanly iron transfer the EGA. Some Marines choose to have it embroidered on however. The MARPAT digital boonie cover has an embroidered EGA.
 
(mercedesrules) How can people resisting an invading/occupying army be terrorists?


Like the Al-Queda and Taliban terrorists resisting the US invasion of Afghanistan, that's how.

The presence of US forces in an area doesn't somehow magically transform terrorists into noble freedom fighters, except perhaps in the sick, warped mind of an anti-American leftist.
 
Like the Al-Queda and Taliban terrorists resisting the US invasion of Afghanistan, that's how.

The presence of US forces in an area doesn't somehow magically transform terrorists into noble freedom fighters, …
Proclamation 5034—Afghanistan Day, 1983
By the President of the United States of America, 21 March 1983


The tragedy of Afghanistan continues as the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters [The Taliban] persevere in standing up against the brutal power of the Soviet invasion and occupation. The Afghan people are struggling to reclaim their freedom, which was taken from them when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in December of 1979.

In this three-year period the Soviet Union has been unable to subjugate Afghanistan. The Soviet forces are pitted against an extraordinary people who, in their determination to preserve the character of their ancient land, have organized an effective and still spreading country-wide resistance. The resistance of the Afghan freedom fighters is an example to all the world of the invincibility of the ideals we in this country hold most dear, the ideals of freedom and independence.
…
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/278.html

Cool Hand Luke 22:36, you really should read some history instead of lashing out at everyone who disagrees with you, imho.
 
w4rma wrote:

Proclamation 5034—Afghanistan Day, 1983
By the President of the United States of America, 21 March 1983

The tragedy of Afghanistan continues as the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters [The Taliban] persevere in standing up against the brutal power of the Soviet invasion and occupation. …

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45/278.html

Cool Hand Luke 22:36, you really should read some history instead of lashing out at everyone who disagrees with you, imho.

w4rma:

The original proclamation did not mention the Taliban. That bit was added in later by one of your typical shrill, anti-American leftists. It's very sad to see anyone stoop so low as to post a doctored version of this proclamation when the original is easially available.

Perhaps if you did a little reading in serious history from time to time instead of just doing the type of shallow, uninformed cut and paste of the leftist propaganda sites you frequent, you would know that the Taliban did not come into existance untill the mid 1990's, and therefore the Reagan procalamation of 1983 could not possibly have mentioned them.

But then again, the truth would never support a strident, shrill, anti-American agenda now would it.

********************************************************
Here's the original version of the proclimation:

Proclamations, March 21, 1983
Proclamation 5034 -- Afghanistan Day, 1983
March 21, 1983

By the President of the United States

of America

A Proclamation

The tragedy of Afghanistan continues as the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters persevere in standing up against the brutal power of the Soviet invasion and occupation. The Afghan people are struggling to reclaim their freedom, which was taken from them when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in December of 1979.

In this three-year period the Soviet Union has been unable to subjugate Afghanistan. The Soviet forces are pitted against an extraordinary people who, in their determination to preserve the character of their ancient land, have organized an effective and still spreading country-wide resistance. The resistance of the Afghan freedom fighters is an example to all the world of the invincibility of the ideals we in this country hold most dear, the ideals of freedom and independence.

We must also recognize that the sacrifices required to maintain this resistance are very high. Millions have gone into exile as refugees. We will probably never know the numbers of people killed and maimed, poisoned and gased, of the homes that have been destroyed, and of the lives that have been shattered and stricken with grief.

It is, therefore, incumbent upon us as Americans to reflect on the events in Afghanistan, to think about the agony which these brave people bear, and to maintain our condemnation of the continuing Soviet occupation. Our observance again this year of Afghanistan Day on March 21, the Afghan New Year, will recall for all the world America's unflagging sympathy for a determined people, its support for their refugees and commitment to achieving a political settlement for Afghanistan which will free that country from tyranny's yoke.

The Congress, by Senate Joint Resolution 65, has designated March 21, 1983 as ``Afghanistan Day'' and has requested the President to issue a proclamation in observance of that day.

Now, Therefore, I, Ronald Reagan, President of the United States of America, do hereby designate March 21, 1983 as Afghanistan Day.

In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-first day of March, in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-three, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and seventh.

Ronald Reagan

[Filed with the Office of the Federal Register, 3:10 p.m., March 24, 1983]

Note: The proclamation was not issued in the form of a White House press release.

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/resource/speeches/1983/32183d.htm
 
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w4rma:

Here's a little background reading on the Taliban to start you off. Again, the Reagan proclimation of 1983 couldn't mention the Taliban, since the Taliban wasn't formed untill the mid 1990's. The Reagan proclamation was referring to the group of genuine freedom fighters led by people like Ahmed Shah Masood, murdered by Al-Queda operatives on Sept. 15, 2001.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afghanistan Atlas Project

Where did the Taliban come from?

The first devotees came from the poverty-stricken refugee camps that sprung up along the Pakistani border during the Afghan-Soviet war. The young men of these camps learned a fierce and fundamental strain of Islam through the madrassas, Islamic schools that dotted the Afghan-Pakistani border. In September 1994, Mohammad Omar, then a mullah and today the leader of the Taliban, created the militia in the southern Afghan province of Kandahar. From the start, its goal was to unite a divided and war-plagued Afghanistan under a strict and unyielding version of Sharia -- Islamic law as written in the Koran, the life of Mohammed and his followers, and Muslim scholars through the ages.
Initial victories

The Taliban's growing power in Kandahar attracted the attention of the Pakistani government, which hired the Taliban in November 1994 to protect convoys traveling between Pakistan and Central Asia. Taliban successes against local warlords attracted more followers and emboldened the Taliban to take control of Jalalabad, the eastern city bordering Pakistan on Sept. 11, 1996. Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan, was occupied by the Taliban on Sept. 27, 1996.
Support

Following the Soviet withdrawal in 1989, the mujahedeen -- Islamic warriors -- once united against the Soviets, divided along ethnic and regional lines.

During this civil war, the Taliban promised an end to the corruption and chaos plaguing much of the country. That young men followed, to the word, the teachings of mullahs was neither unusual nor radical within the context of Afghanistan's history. Since the Anglo-Afghanistan wars of the 19th century, religious leaders have played a major role in galvanizing opposition.

The Taliban gained the support of both disaffected mujahedeen as well more recent graduates from the madrassas. Ethnic allegiance also secured Taliban membership. Most of its members are Pashtun, the majority ethnic group that ruled Afghanistan for 2 1/2 centuries but lost power following the Soviet occupation. The Taliban's popularity and predominant military might gave it a tentative legitimacy to rule the country, and by June 1997 the militia controlled two-thirds of the country.


Building an Islamic State

After seizing control, the Taliban instituted strict enforcement of Sharia, Islamic religious law. Modern conveniences such as computers, televisions, movies and radios were banned under the pretext that they diverted minds from the tenets of Islam. Any depiction of living things, including photography, paintings and sculpture was banned. Men were required to wear beards at least a fist-length below the chin. Women and girls were banned from schools and the workplace and ordered to wear burqas, a one-piece gown with a built-in mesh screen from which to see and breathe. Enforcement for breaking Taliban law is meted out by the Department for Promoting Virtue and Preventing Vice. Infractions such as improper beard lengths may merit a public beating. More serious crimes such as theft or blasphemy could result in an amputation or execution.


Global recognition

Despite armed resistance from warlords in the countryside, the Taliban has managed to gain control of 90 percent of the country. The assassination of Ahmed Shah Masood on Sept. 15, 2001, may help the Taliban take control of the far north, Afghanistan's last anti-Taliban stronghold. Nevertheless, the Taliban's dominance has earned it little outside recognition. U.N. sanctions were imposed in 1999 and increased in 2001 in hopes of forcing the Taliban to hand over bin Laden. Only two countries -- Pakistan and Saudi Arabia -- officially recognize the Taliban. The United Arab Emirates withdrew its recognition some two weeks after the attacks.
Challenges

War and its aftermath have laid waste to Afghanistan. Cities lack potable water and sanitation facilities. According to the United Nations, there are between 9 million and 10 million land mines in the countryside. Meanwhile, drought has pushed parts of the nation into famine. So far, the Taliban has been unable to demonstrate feasible administrative, technological and governmental solutions to the problems.

The current situation threatens not only specific military action by U.S. led forces, but also the end of outside financial support.

The policy has boomeranged. The editor of the international Arabic paper Al-Hayat met Osama bin Laden six months ago and said that the aides and bodyguards who surrounded him, almost 200 people, were all Saudis. In an article in the current Spectator of London, Stephen Schwartz points out that every major terrorist attack against the West in recent years has been conducted by people who have embraced Wahhabism. "Bin Laden is a Wahhabi. So are the suicide bombers in Israel. So are his Egyptian allies, who exulted as they stabbed foreign tourists to death at Luxor... So are the Algerian terrorists... So are the Taliban-style guerrillas in Kashmir." It is clear that Saudi Arabia now exports two products around the globe-oil and religious fanaticism.
Egypt's problem is more familiar. It has turned into something resembling a police state, repressing political dissent with a brutality that Hafez Assad of Syria would have admired. It censors all information that enters the country. It jails intellectuals for even the slightest criticism of the regime. The result is a society that is utterly dysfunctional, a regime deeply unpopular and furtive opposition movements that are increasingly extreme.


We think of our allies in the Middle East as "moderates." And certainly compared with the barbarians of Al Qaeda , they are cautious, conservative rulers. But for decades now the governments in Riyadh and Cairo have resisted economic and political modernization with disastrous results. (And Saudi Arabia is the richest Arab country and Egypt the most populous, so they are watched closely in the Middle East.) There is another path. Those governments that have chosen to walk ever so slowly on it-being modern and tolerant and easing up on the police apparatus-are actually in better shape politically. There have been few terrorists from Jordan, Morocco, Oman and Qatar. None of these regimes are democracies-elections in the Middle East would simply bring more Talibans into power-but they have opened up a little political and civil space and tried to show that Islam is compatible with modernity.


It has been said that Africa is the basket case of today's global market, but in many ways the Arab world is in worse shape, with 65 percent of its population under 18, stagnant economies and a fetid political culture. By the thousands young men are increasingly taking comfort in radical religious and political doctrines that promise salvation through a struggle with the West. But the focus of their hatred is their own regimes. In fact, the Qaeda network began in the early 1990s as a series of disparate groups in Algeria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia that were seeking to topple their respective governments. When those efforts failed, they decided to attack what they saw as the power behind the thrones, the upholder of order in the Middle East: the United States of America. We are now searching for the roots of this conflict in Islam and in theories about the clash of civilizations. But the roots may lie much closer, in our association with dysfunctional Arab regimes that have spawned violent opposition.

http://www.unomaha.edu/afghanistan_atlas/talhist.html
 
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Guerrilla warfare is messy.
Cheap thrill. Tell us something we don't know.
The Iraqis are trying to fight off a superior invading force.
You mean that at worst case estimates, that 20-30,000 of the 27,000,000 Iraqis are trying.
They're using the only methods available to them.
Awwwwww....
Can't you be objective about this?
Implying that you are? Hah!
I am a poster child for extreme individual liberty - nothing more.
Next time you see a slave/mercenary, you might think to take the time to thank him/her for your opportunity to enjoy that liberty. It never hurts to thank and be respectful of our betters.
 
(mercedesrules)
Haha!
I really don't know what he meant, but I am a poster child for extreme individual liberty - nothing more.

MR



AHHH I see, you have completely broken the bonds of Libertarianism which while it espouses the greatness of personal liberty, also acknowledges Duty to the country and the greater good, it just doesn't like it forced on it. You have chosen pure piggish, self-centered Egoism, if it's not good for you RIGHT NOW then screw it.
 
w4rma;

This is from the homepage of the site where you obtained the fraudulent and doctored version of the Reagan proclamation. It's a good example of leftists supporting their anti-American agenda with propaganda and outright falsehood.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Policies of World History Archives
(...or "How I learned to love Rigoberta Menchu and stop worrying about the Capital Gains Tax") :D

Haines Brown, 9 April 2004

The nature of the World History Archives site
The purpose of the World History Archives site is to support those who would teach or learn about world history. It offers 9000 documents on all aspects of world history.

The coherence of the site derives from its implementing a (arguably inevitable) social perspective. (Translation: hard-left, anti-American propaganda to follow, "We will never think of resting untill every truth conforms to the workers' need for tools with which to build a new socialist future") :D This perspective is non-Eurocentric and is that of the working class. However, the site does not apply these constraints rigidly, and it offers documents on a variety of subjects that might be of interest or use.

By non-Eurocentric I mean a shift in emphasis away from Europe and the United States. This means that the West is neither privileged in terms of the number of documents nor the values used in their selection. This is not always easy to do in practice.

The phrase working-class perspective must also be understood loosely. There is some emphasis here on labor and what the union movement is doing, but weight is given to concerns that affect the great majority of people (the working class), such as the social, economic and cultural dimensions of life. For philosophical reasons, I avoid a loss of contact with private life, people’s real needs and aspirations. This goal is not always within my reach.

[more]

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/10/040.html


:D = Editorial Comment Added - CHL22:36
 
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You mean that at worst case estimates, that 20-30,000 of the 27,000,000 Iraqis are trying.

I am not sure I agree. If we had support of the 27 million Iraqi's, it would seem to me that it would be a lot easier for us to track down the 20-30,000 who are engaged in fighting us.

Instead, that 27 million appears to be letting the fighters hide amongst them
 
Could it be they're afraid of being shot?

The same thing goes on here with folks being afraid to point out the street corner drug dealers.

John
 
I think there is a lot to that

JohnBT wrote in part:

"Could it be they're afraid of being shot?"

[RealGun]

The Achilles heel of these anarchists would be discredit by their own religion, undermining/dishonoring what the impressionable have been taught by extremists to motivate them. The problem with doing that is a religious leader who spoke up would consequently be assassinated. I think we need to protect these truly religious people, if not doing so already.
 
(RatFink) AHHH I see, you have completely broken the bonds of Libertarianism which while it espouses the greatness of personal liberty, also acknowledges Duty to the country and the greater good, it just doesn't like it forced on it. You have chosen pure piggish, self-centered Egoism, if it's not good for you RIGHT NOW then screw it.
Yes, I have discovered the flaws of big-L Libertarianism. "Duty to country" and "greater good" are two of them. Taxation and welfare/warfare are the worst. There can't be liberty while there is any of these things.
Individual liberty is my "greater good".

To all of those that keep calling me a "leftist", please point out any collectivist ideas I've promoted. I am the arch-enemy of collectivism.

MR
 
I am the archenemy of collectivism.

And apparently an archenemy to the realities of the world. If we had not followed "Duty to country" we would not be a country. Maybe a British colony or Soviet Republic but not an independent country.

You would most certainly have experienced a new definition of individual liberty under Soviet rule.

I'm sorry that reality will not succumb to your "Individual liberty" ideals. With liberty comes responsibility.
 
(TaurusCIA) If we had not followed "Duty to country" we would not be a country.
Boo Hoo! The invention of the "country" was a bad idea. They are always fighting each other.

Without "duty to country" we just might be a number of peaceful people living in north america. Do you contend that every little baby that is born in the current USA is saddled with an obligation to serve a group of strangers in Washington, D.C.?

MR
 
Easy to spot the cream sippers. Give me my absolute rights to do anything I want but not be responsible for helping in any way. The I have no obligation to the country that I live in crowd are wonderful parasites. Guzzle from the well of freedom but shirk any responsibility. Bet they don't vote in any elections either. Always find fault with everyone else.
 
Sorry MR, but your Personal Liberty wonderland would be over the minute a roving band of sheep led by a few bad wolves decided they want your stuff, and nobody would help you because they would all be too busy worrying about their own stuff.
 
Without "duty to country" we just might be a number of peaceful people living in north america. Do you contend that every little baby that is born in the current USA is saddled with an obligation to serve a group of strangers in Washington, D.C.?

Citizenship ain't free skippy. If you don't like it then pack it up and go find something better somewhere else. Free yourself from this oppressive country. Hurry, before they confiscate your vast personal reserve of hot air.

Good luck sport. :D

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Link...
 
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