I Witnessed 2 1911s go Full Auto today.

[Deer Hunter]

Was at my local USPSA match this month and saw two 1911 guns go F/A. The shooters were pretty surprised. The guy who owned the range came out to check things out.

The range is pretty far from anything, but still, a 9mm round out of one of those can go pretty far if the shooter let one fly over the berm.

Both were STI guns that these guys had worked one. One of them I know for sure was a very frequent shooter. Something like three or four matches a month, counting 3-gun and USPSA. He did his own gunsmithing and was headed to nationals in a week. His gun went FA twice. The second time the hammer wouldn't even stay back, so he was cocking the gun after every shot. That's when it decided to go FA again (this was on the second course of fire). He gave up after that and got his backup gun.

Which he promptly dropped, while loaded, when trying to holster it. Instant DQ.

The other guy had shot with us before. He managed to fix his, though.

So to the point of this post...

What is involved in an 1911 doing this? I'm guessing just the disconnect?

 

[Don357]

I don't know, but I had a Llama OMNI .45ACP do the same thing and I fully believe that it was either a sear, hammer or trigger problem. As you said a disconnect problem.

 

[rcmodel]

Too shallow hammer hooks, or wrong sear angle, or both, or sear spring bent too light, or, etc. etc.

It would have to also involve the hammer intercept notch not working if the shooter ever let go of the trigger even a little bit.

Some folks cut them down to clear the sear because they cut the hooks off too much.

Sounds like those "gunsmiths" probably ought to stop doing trigger jobs until they learn how to do them.

They might also want to brush up on thier "1911 safety checks" before they even take one to the range.

Full auto conditions would be found on the bench if they bothered to check.

Sounds like a real DA!

rcmodel

 

[XavierBreath]

Kitchen table gunsmithing.

If you do not know what you are doing, leave the action of your gun alone, or pay for the trigger job. Any one of the reasons listed could contribute, but the root cause is a failed disconnect. The question is why the disconnect failed.

 

[NonConformist]

A bad trigger job can do it if they mod it wrong, something to do w/ the reset being set so low its wont re-engage the sear IIRC

 

[MarshallDodge]

Depending on the quality of the parts, he may have filed or stoned an area and removed the hardening. It doesn't take long after that to see problems.

 

[DeadHorrorFan]

I've had a Taurus 1911 do this to me. Luckily I was "test driving" one at a local indoor range before purchasing it. The employee came running into the range yelling "what did you do!"...told him "nothing, your gun malfunctioned. Or are you trying to sell me unregistered class 3 weapons?" Talk about the color draining from someone's face. Poor kid couldn't take a joke....

 

[SureThing]

I have read that some suggest heavier firing pin springs in 1911's. I have heard it could spark the primer with the slide going forward. Maybe this was the issue.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I know for a fact the guy who had it happen twice as a kitchen table smith. He is an experienced shooter, but that doesn't excuse him from this.

He was bragging about the light triggers on 1911s in general (lots of people were shooting XDs, Glocks, S&W, and of course me with my CZ). His especially, you see, because he had himself a 1 pound trigger.

I mostly ignore a lot that is said at some of these competitions. Kind of like listening to fish stories.

But here's the deal. The second time it happened, after he supposably fixed the problem, the gun would function fine. Except for the hammer following the slide down. He was having to cock it after every shot. During one of these his mag emptied in about a second or two.

So what causes hammer following?

 

[XavierBreath]

If the hammer sear engagement is not sufficient, as in the hammer hooks being less than .020, the hammer will follow the slide. Maybe not at first, but most gunsmiths agree that .020 is the limit.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Generally (not always), hammer following is caused by not having enough tension on the center leg of the sear spring. Most of the weight in a 1911 trigger comes from the sear spring, so trying to set a 1911 up with a 1# trigger will require very light tension indeed.

- Chris

 

[ZeSpectre]

It never fails to amaze me when people jigger up these "breath of air" triggers and then act surprised when they trigger at the slightest vibration.

 

[10-Ring]

I've seen several go full auto -- a couple in my own hands. Primarily from parts wearing out, poor part quality or a bad trigger job.

 

[Old Fuff]

Both were STI guns that these guys had worked one.

The Old Fuff is not surprised. Too many people like to tinker that have too little knowledge. Be glad no one was hurt. I think maybe the range safety officer should start checking trigger pulls before the match.

 

[RogersPrecision]

I strongly agree with Old Fuff. This is a serious safety issue.
The potential for serious injury or death is very high.
The shooter/smith is reckless and incompetent.
I would not welcome him back.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I think maybe the range safety officer should start checking trigger pulls before the match.

+1!
Sad that a match has to be "babysat" like that but the alternative is pretty unhappy too.

 

[Deer Hunter]

When it happened, everyone stayed calm. The gun was made safe, holstered, hammer down, no rounds, etc. He exited to his vehicle to ascertain the problem.

Since we have a bunch of people, we usually split up into two groups. One group goes to one side of the range and does the courses there, and the other does the courses on the other side.

One of the regulars walks over to our side and says, "Damnit Jim, what was that?"

Our RO for this course replies,

"Well Tom, I told you I'd been workin' on my double taps. Am I gettin' any better?"

No body was hurt. The shame we layed on the fellow with the malfunctioning gun would be enough for him to have it fixed. I don't believe it'll be an issue again. It never has been in the past.

 

[Steve C]

This is the main reason there's a 4lb minimum trigger pull rule for NRA Bullseye for .45 caliber handguns, 3.5lb minimum for other center fire calibers.

 

[Boxing Buffalo]

Ugh. This makes me think of that You Tube video of that guy shooting himself in the hand with his Glock at the range.

 

[Wildfire]

Wow!

Hey There;
I had this happen some years back. Colt 1911. I polished the top of the disconnect a little tooooo much. She went baaaaaaang.
Anyway, hammer follow is hammer follow. A bad disconnect is a bad disconect. Hammer follow usually does not make em go full auto, But a bad disconnect will. This may draw some arguements but this has been my findings. I shot IPSC for years and have had times when My gun would start some hammer follow. New sear and hammer always fixed it. But the only time I ever saw full auto happen it was the disconnect.

 

[rrflyer]

so..................How'd he score on the target it went FA on?

 

[CWL]

Not always kitchen gunsmithing (although most likely), sometimes this may be due to sloppy QC at the shop.

I've had a brand new Kimber Ultra CDP go full auto on me. It was NIB, ordered from Kimber. I've posted about this before.

 

[loop]

I had a 1911 go FA on me once. It was a very popular brand.

When I took it down to figure out the problem the hammer pin was bent back in the middle. The hammer moved far enough to the rear to not fully engage the sear.

I replaced all the pins with hardened pins and the problem was solved. But, I sold the gun at the first opportunity.

I now tend to use drill rod for all my pins. They may break, but they won't bend.

I also don't buy 1911s from countries that have poor metallurgy technology anymore. Hungary is the worst offender, but the gun I had an issue with was from South America.

There are a lot of reasons a 1911 could have such issues, but gunsmithing is only one of them.

 

[71Commander]

Both were STI guns that these guys had worked one. One of them I know for sure was a very frequent shooter. Something like three or four matches a month, counting 3-gun and USPSA. He did his own gunsmithing and was headed to nationals in a week. His gun went FA twice. The second time the hammer wouldn't even stay back, so he was cocking the gun after every shot. That's when it decided to go FA again (this was on the second course of fire). He gave up after that and got his backup gun.

Why wasn't he DQ'd after the 1st time?

 

[Old Fuff]

Both pistols were apparently made by STI - who is a high-quality maker with a great reputation. I highly doubt that this happened because of low quality parts or inferior workmanship.

He was bragging about the light triggers on 1911s in general (lots of people were shooting XDs, Glocks, S&W, and of course me with my CZ). His especially, you see, because he had himself a 1 pound trigger.

There is the source of the problem. The man is an absolute idiot!

They need to get some oversight and supervision into these (so called) combat matches before someone is seriously hurt or killed. If the people within the game(s) don't police themselves, liability lawyers and .gov may do it for them.