ID Commission Bans Modern Muzzleloaders in muzzleloader season

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http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_breakingnews_pf.asp?ID=8461

Idaho commission muzzles some hunting rifles

Rich Landers
Staff writer
January 19, 2007

Aaron Ketza, left, of Black Sheep Sporting Goods talked about the Thompson Center in-line muzzleloader at the store in Coeur d'Alene on Thursday, January 18, 2007. KATHY PLONKA The Spokesman-Review (Kathy Plonka/The Spokesman-Review)

It's gun today, gone tomorrow for some Idaho muzzleloader hunters under new rules adopted Jan. 11 by the Idaho Fish and Game Commission.

David Vig of Careywood, for example, was thrilled with the $1,000 muzzleloader hunting rifle his wife gave him for Christmas. But before he had a chance to try it out, the commission outlawed his and other muzzleloaders with in-line ignition systems for use in Idaho's special muzzleloader hunting seasons.

Though they shoot black powder and are loaded with a ramrod, guns like Vig's just aren't primitive enough, the commission decided.

"My wife just bought me a brand new gun that would have been legal to use last season, but now it's not good for anything but hanging on the wall," said Vig, 70, a lifelong North Idaho resident who's been hunting since he was old enough to buy a license.

Sporting goods stores stocked with certain modern-design muzzleloaders suddenly have inventory they're not likely to sell in Idaho, or even in Washington and Oregon where those guns already had been banned from use in muzzleloader seasons.

Much like archers, muzzleloaders have been given special seasons at choice periods because the traditional primitive weapons are much less dependable than modern firearms. With a maximum range of about 100 yards and ignition systems prone to getting wet and not firing, muzzleloader hunters have been much less likely to bag a deer or elk than hunters with modern rifles.

However, advances in modern muzzleloader design have increased the range, accuracy and efficiency too much, the Idaho commission said.

"It came down to drawing the line on how efficient a muzzleloader could be or the commission would be looking at changing the special seasons," explained Jim Hayden, Idaho Fish and Game Department regional wildlife manager in Coeur d'Alene.

About 48 percent of hunters polled on the agency Web site and at meetings in towns such as St. Maries, Silver Valley and Coeur d'Alene said they preferred to restrict special muzzleloader seasons to traditional weapons while about 41 percent opposed such restrictions, he said.

Muzzleloader hunters have had little advantage in Idaho elk hunts, but their success rates in some areas for deer have been getting significantly higher than archers and modern firearms hunters, state survey statistics show.

"We sold most of our guns and don't have a lot left over, so the new rules won't hurt us too much," said Rob Smith, manager of the Black Sheep in Coeur d'Alene.

"But this was a surprise to us. It would have been nice if they had let us have six months or a year to get out of our inventory. (Smaller stores) don't have the option a big-box store has to ship their guns to another state where they are legal."

The rules adopted by the commission require, among other things, that muzzleloaders use all-lead bullets, open sights and loose black or synthetic black powder. The weapon must have an exposed, pivoting hammer and an exposed ignition using only flint or percussion-type caps.

Southern Idaho already has had some muzzleloader seasons designated for traditional black-powder guns, but the rule is new to the Panhandle.

Vig said he owns a traditional muzzleloader, but he's steamed that he can't use his new Knight .52-cal. rifle.

"I think (the commission) overstepped by making something illegal when it's been legal for years," he said. "If they're concerned that they're killing too many animals, they should go like Washington and make hunters choose whether their going to hunt with archery, muzzleloader or rifle rather than letting them buy a tag for all three hunts."

Several sporting goods store owners said they might have trouble finding a variety of traditional muzzleloaders to put on their shelves for the 2007 seasons.

"Part of it is demand," Smith said, "but manufacturers are going to build what sells the most. In-line muzzleloaders are legal in the East, and one county in Pennsylvania has more muzzleloader hunters than all of Idaho and Oregon."

But Western states seem to favor sticking by their traditional guns for special hunts that Eastern states don't have, Hayden said, noting that Colorado drew the line on muzzleloader advances about 10 years ago.

"If you look at the Internet, you realize there's no end to where technology would go with muzzleloaders," he said. "One muzzleloader Web site (for Ultimate Firearms, Inc.) opens with a headline, ¡¥Put ¡¥Em in a Pile at a Quarter Mile.'ƒ|"
 
How do they legally define a "traditional" muzzleloader?

In any competitive situation where you start trying to restrict performance through technical rules, a certain subset of participants will immediately see just how far they can push the limits of the rules.

For example, I can easily envision someone building a scoped stainless steel and synthetic muzzleloader with an enclosed flintlock action and specially formulated priming powder automatically dispensed from a built in reservoir.

Edit:
D'oh, missed this part,
The rules adopted by the commission require, among other things, that muzzleloaders use all-lead bullets, open sights and loose black or synthetic black powder. The weapon must have an exposed, pivoting hammer and an exposed ignition using only flint or percussion-type caps.

Still, I can imagine quite a bit of wiggle room there for the creatively minded.
 
The owners of the "modern" muzzleloaders can still use them to hunt during regular rifle season. They are only restricted during the "special" season set aside for "traditional" muzzleloaders. What is the problem?
 
I live in a shotgun only state. For ML season, the only restriction is that it can't be a break open style, that means that I've actually got a rifle with better range during the "primitive" season than I do in regular season. Many people here use a ML year round for that reason. They are just as "good" as a rifle and the modern ML's only drawback is that it costs you the chance to make up for a miss.

FWIW, I only use a sidelock muzzleloader, but have no problem with those that use inlines.

I wonder what would happen if you showed up with a genuine antique inline?
 
The inline muzzleloader is to a flintlock like a compound bow is to a stickbow.

I'm not exactly sure what the problem is with allowing inline muzzleloaders- it certainly gets more people out hunting. BTW, I hunt with a flinter during ML season.
 
"Vig said he owns a traditional muzzleloader, but he's steamed that he can't use his new Knight .52-cal. rifle''. Is that with or without the patch?:rolleyes: I don't quite understand the fact that the new rule was adopted in a matter of seconds after it was proposed- something smells kinda fishy in this story. OK Dept of Wildlife has hearings and meetings across the state at least 8 months before any proposed rule/season change are adopted. Waterfowl season is a little different- when you get the pamplet in (about) november:banghead: - you know what the season dates are. :mad:
 
The opposition to in-line muzzle loaders is not coming from game officials, but from the "my way is the only way" folks who hunt with "traditional" muzzle loaders. It has nothing to do with game limits, efficiency of the gun, or any factor other than pure aesthetics.

The "traditional" folks like to dress up like Daniel Boone and pretend they are in the 18th century, and a modern-looking firearm, even though it is a muzzle loader, offends them. So as long as they have the influence with state game commissions and legislatures, the game will be played their way or not at all.

Jim
 
A hammer that used the percussion cap to drive an anvil into the primer on a inline ignition barrel is comming. The hammer and percussion cap would be the 1st stage ignition,but the inline would be the primary, all lead ( do they mean labratory pure:neener: )bullet? I bet that doesn't matter after some yahoo figures out how to make a soft core/hard shell hollow point ( foster style possibly?)bullet. Did the new rules specify a rate of twist for the muzzle? what about sights? an electronic automatic adjusting ladder sight ( with rangefinder - RE: Elcan automatic scope:rolleyes: ) pretty much gets a hit, yeah~ quote from JesseL "Still, I can imagine quite a bit of wiggle room there for the creatively minded."
 
The key to having any special season at all is exemplified by,

"Much like archers, muzzleloaders have been given special seasons at choice periods because the traditional primitive weapons are much less dependable than modern firearms. With a maximum range of about 100 yards and ignition systems prone to getting wet and not firing, muzzleloader hunters have been much less likely to bag a deer or elk than hunters with modern rifles."

Today's R&D has--for many--reduced the original self-imposed handicap for the traditional flintlock or cap/ball muzzleloaders.

In states with excess whitetail, it's of little importance to either view as to "What is a muzzleloader?". In states where the hunter kill could possibly affect the overall herd numbers, it does make a difference.

Art
 
This was inevitable. Inline shooters, not Fish and Game, are ultimately to blame.

People with no interest in muzzleloading drove the demand for modern guns that loaded through the muzzle. The sole purpose of these guns is to allow people to use special deer seasons designed for primitive firearms, with rifles that are in no way primitive, and that perform much like a modern single shot.

There's no concern about weather, delayed ignition, limited velocity, or limited range with these rifles. There's none of the fun or challenge that come with hunting the way Daniel Boone did. That's all well and good, but it doesn't warrant a special season, unless they have yet a fourth season, restricted to single shots like Encores, Rugers, NEF's, Sharps, etc., as well as front-stuffing modern rifles. Anyone hear a cry for a single-shot season? I haven't.

The culmination of this is this rifle: http://www.savagearms.com/muzzleloader_home.htm

To quote from Savage: "This 50 caliber rifle with 209 primer ignition can deliver 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards and produces velocities exceeding 2,300 fps. With more than 3,000 foot pounds of knock down energy, the 10ML-II is muzzleloading perfection that caters to every taste."

That outperforms more than half of the centerfire cartridges in common use today, at least out to 250 yards. It's not a .338 Win Mag, but it's up there with a standard centerfire with a heavy bullet.

Like Art said, in places that have an overabundance of whitetail (or any game), this doesn't matter.

But if game is at all limited, and a special season and the number of tags are designed using formulas that assume certain limitations on the hunter's weapon, the season either has to be eliminated, restricted drastically, or limited to weapons that meet the requirements for which the season was designed.

In California, crossbows are general-season-only weapons, except for some physically handicapped hunters. Limiting modern-performance rifles to the general season makes sense, as well, IF game is limited and the season must be managed.

I know that some of you live in places where they hand out deer tags in bunches, but here it's not like that. There aren't enough deer, and its in none of our interests to have them all wiped out in a season or two.
 
I can see limiting performance during a primitive season. In fact, I'm all for it. But not through banning a particular type of gun. They could have restricted the use of sabots and pellets and achieved the same thing. Yet the inline owners could have loaded with a lead conical and loose powder and still used their gun. The fast twist rates of the inlines do a very good job stabilizing a heavy conical. This would have put inlines and traditional guns on even footing and kept most everyone happy.

I was afraid something like this would happen though. The traditional crowd wanted the inlines out. I kept suggesting we try to find some common sense limitations that would work for both sides, but the inliners didn't want to hear it either. Folks in other states take note. If you don't start trying to find some common ground, this could happen to you too.
 
Honestly, I'm for this one to.

Partly for the reasons Art mentioned, and partly 'cause well darn it.. you want to hunt with a rifle that's for all intents and purposes modern, then do it in the regular rifle season.

-K
 
Right on.

No one's stopping you from using a modern gun in Idaho, they're just not letting you get a special tag in a special season.
 
Yup, I'm gonna have some hunting buddies cryin' the blues over this and I'm just gonna grin and sip my brew.
These new muzzle loaders they're totin' have nothing to do with the spirit of sport.

Biker:)
 
Jim Keenan is correct. This is politics pure and simple. No one has mentioned the bullet performance issue at all. Modern jacketed Black Powder bullets provide cleaner kills and a much lower incidence of wounded game running off to die a lingering painful death. It is apparent that the state of Idaho wants the $ for our licenses and tags but has no intention of allowing us to actually harvest game. How about safety, traditional flintlocks are truly dangerous weapons, what about hangfires, flashbacks and other assorted problems related to safety? I notice the F&G commission conducted a survey on their website, well we all know how easy it is to influence an online poll. Why not conduct a survey with all hunters when they purchase their tags. Either yer fer it, or agin it , or have no opinion that way you get a much broader cross section of participants. I don't hunt deer with a front stuffer but I do hunt Elk and in Idaho we are restricted to 2 zones next to the Montana border with very little access due to heavy mountain snows and are allowed to shoot spike elk only. Besides the Elk are down low in winter so the numbers of animals up high in these zones are very limited. I've been in these zones hunting when the Daniel Boone types show up with their flintlocks strapped to their modern packs full of MRE's, and GPS's mounted to their snowmobiles. Some primitive hunt eh? If the state of Idaho was really worried about having good herds with healthy deer and Elk populations they wouldn't have dealt with this item first. Note to F&G commissioners: It's the Wolves stupid! Next limit the number of tags available to non resident hunters during the general season, well this ain't gonna happen cause out of staters pay way more for a tag than we do. Want to limit harvest a little more, then stop archery hunters from carring handguns during archery season. I can't tell you how many of these guys have confided in me that they actually shot their deer/elk with their trusty 375 whizbang during bow season. Shame on Idaho fish and game for caving in to the Daniel Boone elitists on this issue. :cuss:
 
I hunt with flintlocks, this new law is crap!!

I have shot an inline that was made in the 1870's that gun belonged to Ken Bresien noted barrel and rifle maker of the black powder persuasion.

Inlines load from the muzzle 1 shot at a time same as any other ML. IMHO any advantage is sales hype. they are still no better than a TC Hawken with a Green Mountain fast twist barrel on it.

Jealous hunters of the modern persuasion are the reason for laws like this. Note the law does not affect me one bit, it is just an emotional law same as any gun law.
 
This is politics pure and simple. No one has mentioned the bullet performance issue at all. Modern jacketed Black Powder bullets provide cleaner kills and a much lower incidence of wounded game running off to die a lingering painful death.

I would have to disagree with this. Soft lead round balls are notorious game stoppers if correct bullet placement is maintained. The purpose of muzzle loading season was to give hunters more time in the field but the game was to have all the advantage. If you don't like it bone up on your shooting skills or stay home.
 
Well, I guess the only way to be fair to all would be to do away with the "special" seasons all together and just extend the regular season to make up the kill ratio.:rolleyes:
 
Wait and see if the overall count of permits sold for the primitive methods season goes down. If they see a 50% or better decline in sales, the law will change back. I don't have a dog in this fight, cause when I want to use my in-line, it is during the regular firearms deer season, although I have many friends here in MO that do use them in the primitive season.

Jim
 
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