Idea for a new pistol?

[RyanAnchors]

Does anything like this exist?

Basically, a pistol somewhere in between the sizes of a Seecamp and a Ruger LCP, but chambered in .22 WMR (.22 Mag)?

I really want something like this, I think it would sell because .22 Mag is pretty cool and you could double-stack it deep in an LCP sized magazine.

They've made regular sized pistols and small revolvers/derringers in .22 Mag.
Just no small pistols.
.22 Mag can be a nasty little round.


I would buy it for novelty if nothing else (could make a good last ditch back-up gun though lol).

 

[bigfatdave]

The grip would be rather huge front-to-back for such a small gun. And muzzle flash would be huge, and efficiency would be low ... Speer and Hornady just got short barrel .22mag ammo out on the market (for that matter, I still haven't seen the Hornady in person)

Maybe, if Kel-Tec ever catches up with PMR-30 demand, I wouldn't be surprised to see a PMR-15 or 20 come out as a "compact" version after the RMR-30. Hopefully they'll hold strong on not nerfing the gun down to 10-round capacity for the silly AWB states, but a PMR-10 would be pretty stubby in the grip!

 

[BleysAhrens]

I'm holding my breath for a new 7.62X25 hand gun. SERIOUSLY!

 

[RyanAnchors]

Most of those little picket .22LR have long grips front to back anyway (bobcat, Beretta 21A, etc). I'm okay with that.
I should email Kel-Tec, I already hit up Jimenez Arms (aka Bryco, Jennings, Saturday Night Special guns) and North American Arms (NAA).


And BleysAhrens, a modern Tok would be rad! haha.

 

[7even6ix2wo]

I'm holding my breath for a new 7.62X25 hand gun. SERIOUSLY!

That would be the day. It's such an effective round that hasn't really been given it's due credit.

 

[bigfatdave]

new 7.62X25 hand gun

or 9x18makarov

Not likely with current trends, though.

 

[RyanAnchors]

Jimenez Arms JA-22 is similar to what I'm thinking. Except with a double stack mag if possible and of course in .22 WMR instead of LR.

 

[harmon rabb]

pretty sure that doesn't exist. 22wmr sucks out of a pistol though, stop looking at 22wmr ballistics out of a rifle

 

[19-3Ben]

^^^ This.

Unless of course, one is talking about the new short barrel stuff.

 

[RyanAnchors]

One is talking about the new short barrel stuff from Hornady and Speer...
They seem to think it has the potential to be better out of the pistol than LR. So now I'm curious.

Are ANY .22LR chambers capable of handling/firing .22 WMR? (Rifle, handgun, etc)
Or are they dimensionally different enough to not work even in .22LRs with really strong actions.

 

[harmon rabb]

dude, look at a 22wmr next to a 22lr. the 22wmr case is twice the length. there is no way any 22lr anything is going to chamber a 22wmr.

also, iirc, 22wmr bullets are actually a tiny bit larger in diameter, and you couldn't shoot a 22wmr through a 22lr barrel without problems (but you could shoot a 22lr through a 22wmr barrel without issue, of course).

seriously though, with how freakin' small and light guns like the LCP are, why on earth do you want a rimfire carry pistol? if recoil is your issue, get a kel-tec p32. same size as the LCP, 32acp (which still destroys a 22wmr out of a tiny barrel), and very low recoil.

 

[VA27]

Look around for an old AMT AutoMag II. The small one with a 3.5" barrel is some bigger than a PPK. I'd be all for one, but I don't see anyone anytime soon devoting any time and money toward developing one.

For me, an LCP-sized Tok or 5.7X28 would be a must have.

 

[bigfatdave]

Are ANY .22LR chambers capable of handling/firing .22 WMR?

no
a read on the wikipedia articles for .22s/l/lr and .22wrf/wmr will be interesting, they are not related except for ignition method, the modern offerings are descended from competing rimfire smallbore rifle designs.

but you could shoot a 22lr through a 22wmr barrel without issue, of course

not really, the case base wouldn't be supported.
.22lr and .22wmr are NOT compatible, are NOT related the same way .38spl & .357mag are, and are NOT safe to exchange either way.

 

[RyanAnchors]

Interesting. I've never seen WMR in person, so that is why I was asking. That makes sense though.

As for .32 destroying .22 WMR out of a short barrel...do you have ballistic evidence to support that?

It isn't really recoil or that this would be a straight carry piece. I just thought it was a fun thought experiment. I'm probably going to get a Jimenez (aka Jennings/Suicide Special) in .22LR so satiate my desire for a tiny .22LR pop gun haha.

 

[Cemo]

They have difficulties with making a successful semi-auto rifle or target pistol in the .22 WMR. Don't think they would have much more success using a LCP size frame. The .22 has a lot more pressure than the .22 LR.

I saw test results on the reliable internet that the .22 WMR out of a 1-1/2" revolver it about like shooting a .22 LR out of a rifle. Which I guess it not all that bad, probably more power than a .25 ACP.

 

[Snowdog]

As for .32 destroying .22 WMR out of a short barrel...do you have ballistic evidence to support that?

.22WMR loads designed & intended for a short barrel:

Hornady Critical Defense

And

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection

For comparison, here's a .32acp JHP that, just as the two .22WMR options above, was designed for a pistol with a very short barrel (similar to the P32):

Corbon 60gr JHP

Hornady .22WMR Critical Defense 45gr JHP:
Velocity: 1000 FPS Energy: 100 ft/lbs

Speer .22WMR Short Barrel Gold Dot 40gr JHP:
Velocity: 1050 FPS Energy: 99 ft/lbs

Corbon .32acp 60gr JHP:
Velocity: 1050 FPS Energy: 147 ft/lbs


You might have a slight capacity advantage with the .22WMR, but it's challenging to escape the fact that the .22WMR was designed from the ground up for use from a rifle whereas the .32acp was created as a pistol round; the .22WMR from a handgun is somewhat out of its element.

 

[BleysAhrens]

Hey Bigfatdave,
You can get a .22 revolver with interchangeable cylinders where you can fire both LR and WMR, using the same frame and barrel..

 

[gordy]

No one has ever been able to get a 22 mag to work well in a auto pistol.
Kel-tec has one out now. I have shot one and it worked better then my auto mag that I had back in the early 90's.
You would be better off finding a revolver to do what you want.
SA or DA revolvers are out there. In 22lr convertion or just 22 mag.

 

[moonpie]

dude, look at a 22wmr next to a 22lr. the 22wmr case is twice the length. there is no way any 22lr anything is going to chamber a 22wmr.

also, iirc, 22wmr bullets are actually a tiny bit larger in diameter, and you couldn't shoot a 22wmr through a 22lr barrel without problems (but you could shoot a 22lr through a 22wmr barrel without issue, of course)..

the bullets are the same diameter . the 22lr uses a heel base bullet where the head of the slug and the exterior of the case are the same diameter and the rear portion is thinner to match the ID of the brass. you can actually press fit fired lr brass into fired magnum brass with thumb pressure. a 22lr will fit loosely in a magnum chamber but the unsupported brass will rupture and could take out an eye or worse.

 

[RyanAnchors]

.22WMR loads designed & intended for a short barrel:

Hornady Critical Defense

And

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection

For comparison, here's a .32acp JHP that, just as the two .22WMR options above, was designed for a pistol with a very short barrel (similar to the P32):

Corbon 60gr JHP

Hornady .22WMR Critical Defense 45gr JHP:
Velocity: 1000 FPS Energy: 100 ft/lbs

Speer .22WMR Short Barrel Gold Dot 40gr JHP:
Velocity: 1050 FPS Energy: 99 ft/lbs

Corbon .32acp 60gr JHP:
Velocity: 1050 FPS Energy: 147 ft/lbs


You might have a slight capacity advantage with the .22WMR, but it's challenging to escape the fact that the .22WMR was designed from the ground up for use from a rifle whereas the .32acp was created as a pistol round; the .22WMR from a handgun is somewhat out of its element.

Nice, thank you. I wasn't aware that .32 preformed that well.
Where does .25 ACP fit into all these? (same conditions, of course).

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

That long cartridge (and rimmed, to boot), in a gun that size, has feeding problems written all over it, I'm afraid.

 

[bigfatdave]

Hey Bigfatdave,
You can get a .22 revolver with interchangeable cylinders where you can fire both LR and WMR, using the same frame and barrel..

Not only am I aware of that, I have such a revolver.
Which doesn't mean you can stuff a .22lr into a .22wmr chamber safely, or the reverse.

the bullets are the same diameter

not quite, but they're "close enough" if you overcome the chamber dimension issues

 

[BleysAhrens]

Quote:
but you could shoot a 22lr through a 22wmr barrel without issue, of course

not really, the case base wouldn't be supported.
.22lr and .22wmr are NOT compatible, are NOT related the same way .38spl & .357mag are, and are NOT safe to exchange either way.

I was responding to this part...

I must say that a lot of cartridge differences are still a little confusing for me, like 7.63 Mauser, and 7.62 Tok. Eye ball it!

 

[bigfatdave]

Eye ball it!

not if you want to have eyeballs tomorrow

 

[MachIVshooter]

somewhere in between the sizes of a Seecamp and a Ruger LCP

................

Jimenez Arms JA-22 is similar to what I'm thinking.

That Jimenez is larger and heavier than a P3AT/LCP.

Aside from that, as has been touched on, getting the .22 WMR to function properly in an autoloading pistol has been difficult and seldom attempted. I have a PMR-30, and it works extremely well. But I doubt it would if you tried to half it's dimensions.

I must say that a lot of cartridge differences are still a little confusing for me, like 7.63 Mauser, and 7.62 Tok. Eye ball it!

Like Dave said, not good enough. A Cartridge's designation is just that, and is not necessarily an accurate representation of anything else. Very few have their true nominal bullet diameter reflected in the nomenclature, and even the metric designations that include case length tell you nothing of the other dimensions or operating pressure.

It simply takes years of being immersed in this stuff to soak it all in and remember which cartridges use what diameter bullet, primer size, what the parent cartridge is (if any), etc.