Idea: reproduction of this integrally-suppressed M1 Carbine?

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Just yesterday, I saw an incredibly cool rifle posted on another forum, from a member's trip to the Springfield Armory Museum:

sa_museum-silenced_m1_carbine.jpg

"This is simply awesome," I thought to myself.

The very next day, this is front-page news across the military:

Sweeping new GI Bill plan gets final approval

It turns out that all the money I saved up on deployment for food/housing for my upcoming last year of college is now disposable income. Don't worry, I have no debt, and am going to invest most of it, but I'm thinking to spend a bit of the windfall on a splurge. While I'm splurging, why not an integrally-suppressed M1 Carbine?

I emailed Special Interest Arms (makers of the reproduction De Lisle), and the owner quoted me a very rough ballpark guesstimate of $1200-1500 built on my provided rifle. Also asked John's Guns (Coleman, TX), but they're booked solid. Are there any other SOTs I should check with?

SIA stated that it seems doable overall, with some issues about how much to port (if I want standard ammo to drop to subsonic), where the porting can be done in order to still cycle semiautomatically, and similar concerns.

I know another serviceman in a similar situation who is very interested, and SIA stated that multiple orders would decrease the unit price. Accordingly:

1) Does anyone have any input on how awesome an idea this is?

2) Any other shops I should contact for a quote?

3) Does it seem feasible to port sufficiently to drop sub-sonic but still retain semi-auto functioning?

4) If we can drop the unit price a bit with multiple orders, anyone else interested in getting in? Any other board where I should check for further interest?

Thanks for any info. The last time I got such a windfall, I ended up making a special trip that turned out quite well: [urlhttp://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=240810&highlight=coleman] Hill-Country roadtrip to buy a suppressor[/url] I'm thinking this could be a pretty cool splurge, and not a terrible price for such a novel rifle.
 
3) Does it seem feasible to port sufficiently to drop sub-sonic but still retain semi-auto functioning?

I think it's feasible but at the cost of making the carbine much more sensitive to changes in powder type, powder charge, and bullet weight (not that there is a particularly broad spectrum of .30 carbine loads).
 
With a 110gr bullet, I'd just leave it supersonic and deal with the sonic crack. It would still be QUITE the interesting gun to have.
 
Another forum suggested I contact SRT for a quote.

They only charge $730 to integrally-suppress a Ruger 77/44 or a Marlin Camp 9, so their rates might be very competitive:

campcarb.jpg

Doesn't seem like too different of a project, except that the Camp 9 is a blowback, while the M1 Carbine has a piston, and I don't know how huge of a difference that makes.


EDIT: heard back from SRT already:

It would never be a true integral because of the gas piston.

At best, it would a be basically a muzzle can that wraps back over
the barrel to where the stock ends.

Okay, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the terminology. Does anyone have any rough guess what type of suppression system actually is inside the above-pictured can, and how it should be described other than "integral"?

I'm just not quite getting why you can't just put the baffles forward of the piston system. In my "integral" Ruger, the baffles don't start until the actual rifled barrel ends, so about half the heavy shrouded "barrel" is rifled barrel, and the rest is baffles. Again, not quite sure what's actually going on under the hood in the pic.
 
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I haven't the foggiest about half the terminology, but as I love my M1 Carbine already, I'd say to go for it, so long as you have a "normal" carbine as a "just in case" type thing.
 
I don't know anything about your project rifle but I did stop at SIA on a road trip once. The quality of work on his Special K conversions was pretty darn good.
 
So much to learn, so little time...

1. Your going to pay for a suppressor stamp ($200) and you want to dedicate it to one receiver...THAT receiver?

2. What does one gain or sacrifice by buying a suppressor in one caliber (say .30) that can be mounted legally on...say a 100 different rifles all that shoot a .30 caliber round (30.06, .308, 30-30, etc...) or having it welded on ONE receiver? What are the other good reasons to avoid dedicated receiver/suppressor rifles?

2. Why do you suppose that serious suppressed rifles do not use semi auto receivers without some single shot capability modifications? Why are those modifications VERY difficlut on THAT receiver?

3. What are the serious implications of dropping a supersonic round down to sub sonic in regard to accuracy and or bullet impact (let alone range.)

4. Why was this very example abandoned as a production failure? Hint...how do clean powder out of the primary stage of this can? How often? Washer end caps...what are they? Why do the new suppresor laws make them impossible to use today without huge expense?

5. What did this rifle sound like when fired? You just might want to hear it.....first.

6. Why was this rifle not selected by Mitch Werbell when he first experimented down at the Springs?

Seriously, what is it you like about it? It's looks?
 
So much to learn, so little time...

Good thing you showed up! I was starting to get all jittery and nervous with confusion.

1. Your going to pay for a suppressor stamp ($200) and you want to dedicate it to one receiver...THAT receiver?

Evidently. Or at least considering the possibilty.


2. What does one gain or sacrifice by buying a suppressor in one caliber (say .30) that can be mounted legally on...say a 100 different rifles all that shoot a .30 caliber round (30.06, .308, 30-30, etc...) or having it welded on ONE receiver? What are the other good reasons to avoid dedicated receiver/suppressor rifles?

It stays on that one receiver, not unlike the suppressor on my Ruger MkII. One sacrifices in that it can't be moved to another rifle (which I'm not interested in doing, so moot point). One gains in handling quality.

2. Why do you suppose that serious suppressed rifles do not use semi auto receivers without some single shot capability modifications?

Wow, food for thought. Should a rip occur in the fabric of the space-time continuum and I find myself involved in house-to-house fighting in Inchon in September 1950, I would assuredly find a single-shot capability modification to be essential.

Why are those modifications VERY difficlut on THAT receiver?

Do you ever wonder why people ask rhetorical questions when they could provide information with the same effort?

...oh, Socratic method, I gotcha.


3. What are the serious implications of dropping a supersonic round down to sub sonic in regard to accuracy and or bullet impact (let alone range.)

I would imagine that it might go slower than a supersonic bullet.

This might also result in a "less flat" (technical term) trajectory.

4. Why was this very example abandoned as a production failure? Hint...how do clean powder out of the primary stage of this can? How often? Washer end caps...what are they? Why do the new suppresor laws make them impossible to use today without huge expense?

"New suppressor laws"? As in 1934? Or are you referring to later guidance from the BATF regrarding baffle maintenance issues, possession of spare components, etc?

In either case, the suppressor I use most (abovementioned MkII) is a user-serviceable can with aluminum baffles, so not a huge hassle to take apart and scrub out, with good internal parts longevity. Plus, with jacketed .30 Carbine ammo the issues of lead-splatter, gunky external lube, etc. would be much less than with .22LR.


5. What did this rifle sound like when fired? You just might want to hear it.....first.

An excellent suggestion. Might you be able to direct me to someone who owns one?

6. Why was this rifle not selected by Mitch Werbell when he first experimented down at the Springs?

Now that you've impressed with your offhand references, I eagerly await your answers to the posed rhetorical question. Why did Mitch Werbell not select this rifle when he first experimented down at the Springs?

Seriously, what is it you like about it? It's looks?

Well, I could note that the M1 Carbine is a fun and handy platform, that there is a definite novelty appeal in owning a reproduction of an historical experimental design, and that I greatly enjoy shooting my suppressed Ruger MkII and imagine that a larger caliber suppressed firearm with a shoulder stock would be an interesting contrast. But instead I'll just be contrary and say "sure, looks."
 
'tis tres kewl...

I'd rather have a "thumper" than a "puncher" round - Slow (already subsonic) and fat and all of that. If you're determined to blow the bucks, ask 'em if they can do a .45 (or even a .40 or 9mm) barrel and bolt... For that sorta thing, and AR platform might be easier, but the M1 carbine just -feels- right.
 
Here are a few concepts of how this could be done:

A: barrel ported to slow round to subsonic. Not desirable as probably wouldn't push enough gas to operate piston, rendering it a bolt-pull.

B: Standard length barrel, shround with some baffles around whole system. Should function just fine, but has some added length and not a lot of bafflespace.

C: Shortened barrel with lots of baffles. Not sure how much barrel you need past the gas-tap to get semi-auto functioning, but that's they key factor. Some added lenght, but plenty of room for baffles.

D: Shortened barrel, some baffles. Primary advantage would be little/no added length vice stock carbine. Downsides are limited bafflespace and the above-mentioned concerns about functioning with shortened barrel.


Are any of these designs remotely close to something that would work? I'm just thinking of a rimfire can and extrapolating. Would all the shrouded space rearward of the baffles provide some utility as an "expansion chamber", or is it just wasted space?
 

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Are any of these designs remotely close to something that would work? I'm just thinking of a rimfire can and extrapolating. Would all the shrouded space rearward of the baffles provide some utility as an "expansion chamber", or is it just wasted space?

I think A will result in a firearm that will not cycle. You will likely have to tweak the gas-port hole on the others, except B.

I'd go with B or C.

You can try B first and see how loud it is. If it is not to your satisfaction, trim the barrel back, recrown and add more baffles.

I think this is a neat idea. Talk with Doug at SRT, he did my 77/44 and knows integrals very well.

-T
 

I disagree with this. I found Paulson's books pretty much useless if you're looking to make your own silencer. His books are more organized as a review of present silencers and offered no deep insight into performance, baffle design or construction.

While Paulson is respected in the field of silencer testing, his books are superficial in their explanation of the underlying designs.

I learned more reading silencertests.com and silencerresearch.com than through his books.

There was another book called firearm silencer patents or some such that may be more useful.

-T
 
'cause the Col. had a clue about the proceeding questions..

Start here..

http://www.amazon.com/Silencer-Perfo.../dp/0873649095

Then go here..

http://www.booktrail.com/guns_militm...erhistory2.asp

Then you can save alot of money, get a suppressed rifle that actually works and, best of all, know why this unit is a dog.....

These books actually have coverage on this particular design? That would make for some interesting reading once I get back to the US.


In all seriousness, I am interested in hearing your ideas on this subject. If you'd be willing to share your perspective here, that could help a lot. That said, simply saying "it's a terrible idea and if you were smart you'd actually understand that" doesn't really help me in the decision-making process.

I'm certainly not asking you to spend time compiling data or doing homework for me, but if you have any info along the lines of "in my experience, you cannot cut an M1 Carbine barrel even an inch without impairing piston function, and SA nixed the suppressed-barrel version since XYZ factor of the M1 Carbine platform made it prone to baffle-strikes, etc." That would be awesome information that I'd be glad to hear from you. We can play "I know something you don't know," but there's not much point since I freely admit that I know very little about suppressors.

By all means, share your knowledge with us, and I'll be most happy to hear it.
 
Sure, sure...no problem.

First, let me explain why I wrote the response the way I did. I've been reading THR for quite a while now, but only recently actually started to reply or start a thread. There is a problem here, IMO, just IMO...but non the less. Way too much advice being given by some people that simply do not have enough experience or interest in doing the background work for a well founded position. It happens all the time, on all the sites, but THR seems to be plagued by alot of really poorly formed advice and opinion. As most questions being asked here are by people who want a disciplined, reasonably accurate response..many of the answers are a real problem having more to do with a preference for choo-choos (any gun with more rails than the Northern Pacific) than anything having to do with purposefullness or accuracy.

Having said that, lets go. Owning a suppressed rifle, a good one, is one of the greatest and most useful rifles one can own. You know that in part from your experience with your suppressed pistol. But a rifle, say in .22 is in fact as close to silenced (a good one) as one can get and that is a most pleasant and suppremely accurate thing to have. I have a .22 rifle that I can hear the trigger mechanism when fired (it is and must be a bolt action)...it is effectively silenced. Many superb suppressed rifles shoot much better than their non-suppressed counterparts. There are many factors involved as to why that happens (caliber and barrel/suppressor design being paramount) and it takes more than a spoonful of preparedness to get the most out of your money. Many supressors sold today deserve their names...cans. A great supressor is apparent when fired next to a common one. Whereas building a supressor (those that can and should be doing so legally) is easy, building one that is quiet, can take the heat and volume of fire, stand up over time, be servicable...and is accurate is not easy, especially the accuracy part. One must shoot and listen to alot of supressors from behind the gun and, with enourmous caution and safety, listen to the bullets down range to really get to know which supressors are good.

IMO, the best way to approach a suppressor is to break them all down into three classes of firearms. First are the pistols, semi automatic (you can't effectively suppress a revolver, though two designs came as close as possible) and, aside for quiet target work, these pistols were meant for sub rosa action at close range. The second class is the sub machine gun class, short to medium range, high volumes of suppressed fire, again clandestine operational use. The second class is only truly quiet (close to silenced) in single shot, locked-out closed bolt operation. In full auto they are quieter, but more meant to hopefully be quiet enough not to carry, but mostly to confuse the enemy as to direction of fire. In CQB, they can provide the ability to allow an operative to hear his surroundings, while protecting one's hearing as well. Accurate? In single lock-out yes, in full auto many are as loud as a .22 and that, is not all the quiet.

The third class is supressed longer range shooting, some would call sniper work, but not always. In the last class, suppressed rifles are all about sound and signature suppression. Accuracy is equally important, but one needs to remember that these rifles shoot extremely well un-supressed to begin with.
So if they are to be supressed, it is to completely hide the position of the shooter.

So where does your rifle fit it? It is, obviously, not a pistol. It is not a sub machine gun. It is not a long range rifle. It is, by nature somewhere in between, it is a light rifle...some would say a very light rifle. Is that bad? Yes and no. No, it is not bad when used for what it was designed for...perhaps (opinion) yes if one was going to choose it as a platform for a supressed rifle. Early designers quickly realized that suppressed light rifles (as opposed to machine guns) made little sense as the sub guns could pack more power, be smaller, as accurate and more useful. You will find the history fascinating, especially the adaption of the Destroyer a Spanish bolt-action, five shot carbine. Its design is similar to the 95 Mauser, but uses two rear locking lugs like the Lee-Enfield. Llight and handy, like your choice, but quiet as it was not a semi auto. The standard chambering was 9mm Largo, though it has been modified to fire 9mm para, .38 Super, 7.62 mm Tokarev, and .45 ACP. Mitch WerBell of the original MAC company built several for the army during the Viet-Nam war. When he realized the limitations....Sionics was born...the M3A was supressed, the M1 left behind, etc. etc. etc. its a great read.

Your choice is closest to a subgun so I spend a little time there...

Machine guns of the right mechanism work very well as supressed weapons. The best are designed to be super reliable, high volume fire weapons that make less noise. They are not silenced, they are suppressed and make enough noise that if you were outside a hotel room door and one was fired full auto inside the room, you would know immediately there was gun fire. Having said that, a suppressed machine gun in lock -out mode will be very quiet, a .45 acp with a good supressor will make about as much noise as a hammer hitting wet mud, or about the same noise as if you were to make a fist and strike your other palm hard...a thump...in lock-out. In the early, wild days at Sionics, designers would order room service in a public hotel, when the service knocked at the door, they would fire a single suppressed round into a stack of phone books behind the closed door. When they opened the door, they would read the face of the waiter, if any alarm was present on the waiter's face, they had failed in their design. The MAC in (.380 and .45, not 9mm) with mounted Sionic Supressor with a fresh (new) second gen final end cap washer worked every time...for four shots...all in lock-out. In full auto, all the receiver noise kicks in again. Sub sonic rounds are best, guns designed for close to subsonic rounds are best... the most stable and accurate rounds as well out of a subgun. People don't realize that the sonic crack of the bullet can be heard down the line of fire with a supressed weapon. Its loud...but the supressor makes it hard to tell where the round came from.

Your 30 cal. M1 Carbine round had very little knock down power. It fired a short, round-nosed bullet at about 1900 fps. It had neither the broad frontal area of the 45 pistol ctg. nor the speed and power of the 30/06 round. However, it would kill, but probably speedy kills would only happen with a heart or central nervous-system hit. Most states won't let people hunt with it except for small game and pests, so that should tell you something. By comparison, the 7.92 kurtz (German MP44, same period) shot a more streamlined bullet at about the same weight, faster (2300fps) The streamlining let it be effective to about 300-400 meters or so. Neither was exactly a powerhouse, but the German round was indeed more effective. Many G.I.s liked the carbine because of it's "cuteness", light weight and low recoil. Had they put it out in the M2 configuration (full auto capability) with a more powerful round, we would have had the first "assult rifle". We didn't and the M1 faded away.

And then there is the issue of the amount of noise inherent with the M1 receiver. Too loud for suppressed full auto, nearly impossible to lock out quickly and efficienty...

And we go on from here..it is really too much to cover...I haven't even really begun on the design constraints when one uses that cartridge in a supressor. Get the books and have a great time, I promise you that you will move quickly beyond this idea and end up knowing exactly why you did and should have.
 
And we go on from here..it is really too much to cover...I haven't even really begun on the design constraints when one uses that cartridge in a supressor. Get the books and have a great time, I promise you that you will move quickly beyond this idea and end up knowing exactly why you did and should have.

Your above historical arguments definitely make sense as to why the M1 Carbine did not further evolve, etc. However, since I'm primarily interested in this piece as a "fun gun", the lack of punch, etc. is not so much a concern.

You mention design constraints with the cartridge, can you elaborate a little bit on that? Is your concern about achieving meaningful levels of suppression while still maintaining semi-auto functioning, properly stabilizing the round, difficult (or impossibility) of achieving sub-sonic ballistics with standard ammo, etc?

At this point, two makers have expressed possible interest in the project (SRT and SIA), and both of them seem to have a fair bit of experience in related matters, so I'm still going to feel out the idea for the time being.
 
You might go to this web site: http://www.shootersdepot.com/ and contact George and ask him about his new style suppressor. I am not sure that it will work on an M1 but he will know which route to go. I have found him to be very knowledgable and easy to talk to.

You keep mentioning "Fun Gun" and I wonder what you mean? Do you mean fun to shoot, to look at or to function? I think .30 carbines are fun to shoot loudly and if they have the M2 bolt and switch, even more fun. The gun in the picture you posted looks about 6" longer than a non suppressed .30 carbine and as such would approach being uncomfortable to handle. I believe it would be very difficult to integrally suppress a gas operated semi auto because of the difficulty of sealing the suppressor to the barrel behind the gas piston and around the operating rod. Most of the semi auto rifles that I have seen with integral suppressors have been recoil or blow back operated .22 rimfire rifles. (mostly Ruger 10/22's).

I cannot imagine a "fun gun" where the investment is more than the gun is worth and it doesn't work well even then.

I am not questioning your sanity or trying to rain on your parade, I just don't think it will work very well but I have in the past been and will be again, wrong.
 
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You keep mentioning "Fun Gun" and I wonder what you mean? Do you mean fun to shoot, to look at or to function? I think .30 carbines are fun to shoot loudly and if they have the M2 bolt and switch, even more fun.

Looking for something fun to shoot. The suppressed .22 pistol is most cool, but I'm not excited about the idea of a .22 suppressed rifle. So far as centerfire rifles, I did consider a bolt-action suppressed 9mm or .44, but not so excited by bolts. The Ruger 96/44 is a pretty cool idea, but again not totally sold on it.

So far as semis, I'm not enamored of the blowback 9mm/40/45 firearms (Marlin, Ruger, Beretta). I saw the pic of the suppressed M1 and thought "if it functions on semi-auto and suppresses well, that'd be dang cool!"

The gun in the picture you posted looks about 6" longer than a non suppressed .30 carbine and as such would approach being uncomfortable to handle. I believe it would be very difficult to integrally suppress a gas operated semi auto because of the difficulty of sealing the suppressor to the barrel behind the gas piston and around the operating rod.

Right, there are definitely some technical issues to be solved, but I have a couple reputable builders who seem to think it's doable. I'm thinking to run the idea by a few more more folks on SilencerTalk and see where to go from there.


I am not questioning your sanity or trying to rain on your parade, I just don't think it will work very well but I have in the past been and will be again, wrong.

No worries, part of the whole intent of this post was to see whether folks think it's doable or no, and to check that against what folks say on the Class III forums. I'm not totally married to the idea; if it turns out to be impractical I'll just figure out some other cool project. The 96/44 does actually sound rather interesting, and I've seen a Ruger 77/44 that was extremely quiet (but thwacked with authority on the target). So similar idea with faster follow-up is appealing, though it doesn't have the historical cachet of the M1 carbine option.

It's not a cheap project, but not ludicrously expensive either. The quotes I'm getting for a complete project run around $1200. $200 for the tax, $350 for a baseline Plainfield post-war commercial carbine (seen several online and in-person at that price recently), and we're looking at barely double than I'd spend for a decent AR-15 (which I already have one of). There are plenty of folks on this board with several AR-15s, so I don't feel prodigal if I end up with one AR and one suppressed carbine instead of three ARs.
 
Here's one backup option if the M1 carbine is unfeasible. From SRT:

9644.jpg

That is pretty wicked-cool. Note that the box mag (vice tube) allows for an integral rather than attached suppressor. I realize that detached are more flexible, but I really dig the integrals.

There's also the Marlin Levermatic design, which came in centerfire variants too, including the .30 carbine and .256. But I've heard that design is a bit fragile/finnicky, and it also went out of production before I was born, so I'm a bit loathe to mess with a semi-collectible rifle.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/malloy/m1.jpg

85_1_b.jpg
 
From the looks of it, it would seem to be an easy task to integrally suppress an old Rugar .44 Mag Carbine. It is about the same size as an M1, ammo is about the same price and the guns cost about the same. The 44 can be loaded sub sonic in some cases by just increasing the bullet weight to 300 grain if memory serves.....It would look like a Ruger 44 Mag carbine with a bull barrel when you were finished.
 
That is pretty awesome but I would probably go with a silenced boltgun for the above resons... or a welrod... or a for big buck a silenced Tommy gun, semi auto of course:)

and, best of all, know why this unit is a dog.....

I think thats the appeal

It's your money and it would be awesome
 
RonE said:
From the looks of it, it would seem to be an easy task to integrally suppress an old Rugar .44 Mag Carbine.

At first I thought you meant a 96/44, which I already mentioned, but then I realized you meant the Ruger 99/44, in other variants called a .44 Carbine or Deerfield. That's quite an interesting idea. Did a little reading up, but still leaning more to the 96/44, since it doesn't have a gas system to complicate things, doesn't have leading issues with the gas system, and isn't touchy about bullet weights for functioning. Plus, to a lot of people in my generation, leverguns are rather exotic.

SRT does the 96/44 suppressed for $730 on the customer's gun. Add $400-500 for a used 96/44, $200 for tax stamp, $100 for ship/SOT, and it's not terribly unreasonable. Will have to do some pondering on this.


Evidently, as least one person has a Ruger 77/44 converted to .50AE, which is pretty ridiculous (-ly cool):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpw8HDqClqE
 
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