If gun control isn't truly a "liberal" thing, that what is it?

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Eleven Mike said:
Michael Savage is not a conservative.

He just proved my point, on his show, by stating that Mitt Romney had won the poll on his website, making him the candidate of the "extreme right wing." :confused:

Michael Savage is a nut and a loose cannon, and no identifiable political ideology can claim him.
 
Why? And is that an identifiable ideology? Really, he doesn't line up with the religious right, the libertarians, right or left, the neo-cons (whoever they are), or anyone else I can think of.
 
For every moron that calls themself a liberal, or a Democrat, there is a conservative Republican somewhere who is equally stupid.

I'd avoid the political labels. They often aren't representative of everyone included in the given group, I've foun.
 
Why? And is that an identifiable ideology? Really, he doesn't line up with the religious right, the libertarians, right or left, the neo-cons (whoever they are), or anyone else I can think of.

Not exactly. But thats the best I can come up with.

The labels are getting annoying.
 
To the original question - it depends on who's the one pushing for it.

To be sure, there is a particular flavor of anti for which the disarmament thing is part and parcel of a generally socialist utopian ideology, basically "well if no one had weapons, no one would kill anybody" - you know, the crunchy granola or "New Man/New Society" types.

I think most of those actively pushing the disarmament agenda on the left are like that, with the comparatively rare exception of the big ones - Kennedy, Schumer, Feinstein - those few I think are at best elitist "power for me and not for thee" wannabe nobles, and at worst are of the "we have to disarm them before we can do more they wont like" thought pattern. But that's a definate small minority.

With the exception of (comparatively rare I think) true believers, many seem to just line up depending on what the platform is - "I'm an elephant, so I'll vote (sorta) RKBA. I'm a donkey, I won't" It's just not a big issue to most folk.

As to us just folks, what seems the most common "anti" all over the political spectrum is just folk who haven't really thought about it at all - that can range from "ooh, a gun in the house means you're more likely to die, those are icky" to "well yeah I have a .38 and a hunting rifle, but who really needs an assault weapon. Those are criminal guns, I saw it on TV." And those are if not as likely to vote R as D, at least present in both parties. They're also the most reachable, as they don't have the vested interest the others do. And pragmatic arguments trump Constitutional ones most all the time.

And finally yeah.. there's exceptions to every generalization.
 
To be sure, there is a particular flavor of anti for which the disarmament thing is part and parcel of a generally socialist utopian ideology, basically "well if no one had weapons, no one would kill anybody" - you know, the crunchy granola or "New Man/New Society" types.

I agree completely. But surely there are some on the left that are pro-RKBA? Sure you have your Howard Deans every now and then but what about groups? We know that the ACLU would love guns to be regulated out of existence.
 
Sarah Brady has identified herself as a Republican at some point, I believe, and I'm sure she believes herself to be a conservative of some stripe, but then both could be said of Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney. I think it's safe to say that gun control isn't so much a "liberal" idea as it is an "authoritarian" idea, and I think we'd do well to keep in mind that famous quote from Giuliani that "Freedom is about authority" the next time some star-struck Party apparatchik champions him as the shining hope for conservatives in 2008.
 
Kaylee, you mean like the guy who just posted on Bullshido yesterday that he didn't like Rick Perry calling for CCW to be legalized in churches because "I don't want to live in a country where ownership of semi-automatic rifles is common"?

(He's from Buffalo, NY) :rolleyes:
 
I agree completely. But surely there are some on the left that are pro-RKBA?
Oh absolutely. Just not in any major positions of power in the party that I can think of.

I think it's safe to say that gun control isn't so much a "liberal" idea as it is an "authoritarian" idea..

well said.


And um... don't know the guy or all of what he said, but it sure sounds like it, yes.
 
To Enact "Gun Control",...

...one must first disregard the Constitution. In order to do that, one must make an "interpretation" of some part of the Constitution to "find" the power to do it(The Commerce Clause at the Union level) and then "profess" that such power is not prohibited by the Second Amendment because the Second Amendment "refers to something other than a right of the people". This is from the original definition of "Liberalism" vis-a-vis the Constitution, meaning to take a liberal view to "establish" what the Constitution might or could mean as you want it to, rather than what it plainly and succinctly states.

"Conservatism" is the strict obedience to that which the Constitution plainly and succinctly states.

Now what is happening these days is the misnomering of the two words as they are used to describe behavior and attempting to apply them to the way people abide or disregard the Constitution. A person can be a real stuffed-shirt, stick-in-the-mud, holier-than-thou social conservative yet be as liberal with the Constitution as fits their agenda to foster their beliefs upon the "unwashed masses."

Learn the difference between the two meanings of each word and know where and how to apply them. As an example, when it comes to behavior, I lean toward the liberal side - believing in freedom of choice but accepting the consequences of one's behavior as a result of one's choices be they rewards or blame - and conservative when it comes to the Constitution and all the government created or allowed by it.

Also learn the difference between the law and the Constitution. The Constitution grants limited power - or prohibits power - to government. Law restricts powers of the people and law is not required to grant power to people.

Woody
 
This is from the original definition of "Liberalism" vis-a-vis the Constitution, meaning to take a liberal view to "establish" what the Constitution might or could mean as you want it to, rather than what it plainly and succinctly states.

"Conservatism" is the strict obedience to that which the Constitution plainly and succinctly states.

No, none of that is correct. And I don't think "misnomering" is a word. Sure is fun to say, though. "Misnomering." I like it. :)
 
"Um, aren't James and Sarah Brady both Conservatives?

Just checked, and yes they are."


Yep, they're in it for the money. As head of the Brady Bunch, Sarah pulls in about $250K/annum.
To be fair, the higher ups at the NRA do quite well, financially, too.
 
Eleven Mike said:
woodcdi said:
Quote:
This is from the original definition of "Liberalism" vis-a-vis the Constitution, meaning to take a liberal view to "establish" what the Constitution might or could mean as you want it to, rather than what it plainly and succinctly states.

"Conservatism" is the strict obedience to that which the Constitution plainly and succinctly states.

No, none of that is correct. And I don't think "misnomering" is a word. Sure is fun to say, though. "Misnomering." I like it.

"Misnomering" is the the conversion of a noun - "misnomer" - into a transitive verb. As for "Conservative" and "Liberal", do you have definitions of those two words you prefer vis-a-vis the Constitution? Obviously, you must. Otherwise, you wouldn't think the definitions I have are wrong.

Woody
 
I've come to prefer "Statist" to describe those who think the central government should have a lot of power. That the central government should attempt to solve all social problems.

This mindset, seeing crime as the social problem that it is, thus calls for strong measures to "solve the problem". Bring in Kaylee's point about Utopia = no guns (or gun control) and we see the push for gun control laws. Since the very idea of Utopia is emotional and antithetical to basic human nature, human behavior, facts don't matter all that much.

(The only way government can assist capitalism to be successful is to leave it alone. Regulation inhibits business activity. As long as regulations are goal oriented {"Don't pollute." and not process-oriented {"This is how you don't pollute."} the negative impacts are minimized.)

Anyhow, I think the term "Statist" is more explanatory than "Liberal". E.g., Dubya Bush is a Statist; witness his "Free Pills for Old Pharts" effort as well as "No Child Left Behind".

Art
 
if gun owners are going to be able to keep up the 'good fight,' we're going to have to stop the 'liberal/conservative' INFIGHTING!


Of course, allowing ourselves get bogged down with political philosophy labels is truly missing the forest for the trees on this critical issue.

The rock-bottom question in my view:

How are we ever going to stamp out once and for all the baneful notion that gun control is progressive and positive?
 
And The Answer Is:

There is only one answer. That answer is to abide the Constitution, strictly, per its original intent. Want to change something? Or, add or delete something? Amend the Constitution.

I never hear about anyone having a problem when the Constitution is adhered to, nor have I read about a whole lot of it in the past - except for slavery, but the Constitution had the answer for that, too.

Every usurpation, if its history is investigated and searched to discover who benefited by it, can be traced to money and the gratuitous advantages that were handed to whom ever did benefit in the end.

Welfare is a good example. Despite the lack of advancement of poor people - though promised - those who passed welfare secured the vote of everyone who benefited and those of the "do-good-with-everyone-else's-money" crowd. The politicians who passed that legislature, and the bureaucrats who received a nice cushy job were the true beneficiaries of welfare.

Woody

"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, 'till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole of the People, is sacredly obligatory upon all."

George Washington, Farewell Address, September 19, 1796.
 
Yes, the anti-gunners want to take your guns. But is that what they really want? What are they really afraid of? An innocent person getting hurt or killed with a gun? Nope.

When it comes down to it, the anti-gunners don't want your guns. What they really want is for you to think like them. Let me repeat: what they want is for you to think like them. They know that owning a gun works against this goal, in that it fosters an attitude of individuality and self-reliance. It is this attitude they hate, not the guns.

More than anything else, anti-gunners and fascists want your mind, not your guns. Give them your mind, and they will gladly let you keep your guns.
 
lamazza said:
I think our oligarchy is afraid of their ramparts being stormed before they fill their coffers.

We can only hope! It's time for them to relent, level their ramparts, and cough up the dough they took!

Woody

You all need to remember where the real middle is. It is the Constitution. The Constitution is the biggest compromise - the best compromise - ever written. It is where distribution of power and security of the common good meets with the protection of rights, freedom, and personal sovereignty. B.E.Wood
 
"Um, aren't James and Sarah Brady both Conservatives?

Just checked, and yes they are."

Yep, they're in it for the money. As head of the Brady Bunch, Sarah pulls in about $250K/annum.
To be fair, the higher ups at the NRA do quite well, financially, too.

Man, if the 'Goldwater Republicans' can stage a coup in the party (Ron Paul) Id hope she and her ilk would be the first to be kicked out. She's a Nixon republican and she needs to go.
 
What they really want is for you to think like them.
They know that owning a gun works against this goal, in that it fosters an attitude of individuality and self-reliance.

Indeed, they lack respect for the liberty of the individual that is at the heart of the American constitution.

That is precisely why we must be utterly determined and ruthless in our efforts to eradicate these pernicious gun control interest groups.
 
Good 'food for thought.' :cool:

I agree that the 'old labels' are out-living their usefulness. If forced to pick, I'd say I'm a 'conservative.' But, not to go into details, I also hold some ideals that don't "fit in" with that.

On the other hand, if one defines Conservatism as "maintaining the status Quo," then I am NOT conservative when it comes to gun-control. I want the status quo of "gun-free" (aka self-defense free and criminal empowerment) zones repealed, among other things! ;)
 
Then again, seeing debate on a lot of things besides guns...if being tolerant of ALL views makes a liberal, could it be that a lot of people that say they are liberal actually are not?

He offered up some 'alternatives' to label gun-control agendas, like communist, socialist, or fascist. His main point was directed at someone that had blasted the recent article on how a gun confiscation could work as "liberal." - the other poster was pointing out (rightly, I'd imagine) that if gun owners are going to be able to keep up the 'good fight,' we're going to have to stop the 'liberal/conservative' INFIGHTING!

We're leaving out the term "reactionary" in this discussion.

Many of the "liberals" who want to ban guns are actually extreme reactionaries on the issue. I say this because centuries ago in Europe the only classes allowed to own and use weapons were the nobility. The same applied in Japan as well. The so-called "liberals" in America today who wish to ban guns typically see even the knowledge of how to use a weapon as distinctly belonging to specific segments of society like police, soldiers, or security guards. As far as guns are concerned, they wish to return society to the format used in Europe and Japan going back for centuries. Reactionary is the best way to describe the Toledo Blade columnist who wanted to make America a giant gun-free zone with harsh penalties for violators.

Then there are the "conservatives" who are pro-gun. I would say that they range from genuinely liberal, i.e., anyone who wants a gun should have one, of whatever type they wish, to mildly conservative, i.e, people should be allowed to have guns provided they meet certain criteria, such as no felony convictions or not insane.

So what I'm really saying is that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" in current use do not reflect the actual relations of either group to the issue of widespread ownership of weapons, particularly firearms, by the public.
 
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