Ask a liberal, reformed gun grabber thread!

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oh...and let's not forget the thinly veiled threats to pull the FCC license of Disney for showing an unflattering portrayal of Bill Clinton in the Path to 9/11. Yeah...liberals always work within the confines of the law and the constitution.

They seem to have to problem dishing out that nasties against GW Bush day after day for that last 4 years..but GOD FORBID we intimate something nasty about them....
 
Customs become outdated. Being a reform Jew, I realise that certain customs and traditions of my religion are somewhat outdated. I don't see the need to keep kosher, for instance. In the olden days, when food bourne disease was far more prevlant than it is today, keeping kosher could help keep you alive. Nowadays it's a tradition, but it doesn't hold the same necessity as it once did.
I'm confused. In reformed Judaism the Law is now looked on as quaint customs and tradition?

Pilgrim
 
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I got a serious question. I'm not trying to be a wiseass, but if the 2nd amendment was meant such that the state/individual has the right to protect themselves from the government by arming themselves or creating a militia, wouldn't you need more than just guns? It says the right of people to bear arms, not guns. Arms can be grenades, rocket launchers, tanks, jets and etc. If the people want to protect their liberties against a domineering force (say your own government, which is what this amendment is really pointing towards) wouldn't you need more than just guns? How do you stop a tank with a rifle...or shoot down a bomber jet with a bullet. Yes, I know not everyone is paranoid about "the man", but the 2nd amendment clearly suggests the use of arms to prevent government suppression of liberties and it should be entirely within the bounds of the amendment to possess explosives and nuclear weapons :) to be a formidable match against the arms of the government. Wouldn't it be hypocritical to support guns, but not tanks?
 
Sure, it is absolutely fine if Pete volunteers to help, however, there is NO reason why Paul should be FORCED to help. It is completely illogical.

Because we all have a responsibility to ensure that our society functions. Buy insuring that everyone pays when they can (e.g. pay taxes), when Pete gets back on his feet and Paul gets kicked to the curb, Paul has a chance to get back up on his feet as well.

This is along the same lines as the gripe of having to pay taxes for school when the payer does not have any children. That tax payer benefits directly from the fact that most children can read, write, do basic math, and have the skills to be productive in society.

Same thing goes for infrastructure, health care, etc....

:evil: Not to mention, if you don’t pay your fair share but can, I don’t want you abusing the society that I help pay for by using its facilities.
 
I got a serious question. I'm not trying to be a wiseass, but if the 2nd amendment was meant such that the state/individual has the right to protect themselves from the government by arming themselves or creating a militia, wouldn't you need more than just guns? It says the right of people to bear arms, not guns. Arms can be grenades, rocket launchers, tanks, jets and etc. If the people want to protect their liberties against a domineering force (say your own government, which is what this amendment is really pointing towards) wouldn't you need more than just guns? How do you stop a tank with a rifle...or shoot down a bomber jet with a bullet. Yes, I know not everyone is paranoid about "the man", but the 2nd amendment clearly suggests the use of arms to prevent government suppression of liberties and it should be entirely within the bounds of the amendment to possess explosives and nuclear weapons to be a formidable match against the arms of the government. Wouldn't it be hypocritical to support guns, but not tanks?

Any fight against the government would be mostly fought with IEDs and car bombs, not groups of civilians armed with M4s
 
Besides, if you have the money, there are military surplus fighters out there. I doubt as if you could buy an F-16, but there are people flying a lot of other pretty neat pieces of hardware out there.

Now as far as affording the fuel, the upkeep and the parts required...well, good luck with that. Hope you are exceptionally wealthy. :rolleyes:
 
Because we all have a responsibility to ensure that our society functions.

Right.

Which means getting a job...

We have NO responsibility to provide for ANYONE outside of our own families. PERIOD. End of story.

Using this reasoning, people would be justified walking into ANY house they desire for food, as it is our responsibility to ensure our society functions. Regardless if MY family can no longer eat, I have a responsibility to ensure ALL in my community are fed.

No logic...
None, whatsoever.

If you DON'T work to make money to buy food, than you should either:
A) STARVE or...
B) Mooch off of those who are sympathetic to your lazy arse.

I prefer "A" personally, as I hate seeing people get taken advantage of by losers, and starvation would free up more oxygen for the rest of us...
 
Here's what really bothers me concerning left wing liberals:
I don't have a question for the liberal, but I do have a rant, so here goes::D

1) They want to mold all of our lives to their utopian outlook, make love not war, self defense is not a right, you don't need a gun, just dial 911.
2) The liberal Democrats would rather sit down and shake hands with a terrorist, than bomb the crap out of them, bombs are the only thing these people understand. The radical muslims are indoctrinated from early youth to hate America, the terrorist's have no problem recruiting people. There is no negotiation with terrorist's, they will shake your hand one day, and shoot you the next.
3) Right now, I believe the whole left wing democratic agenda is based on America's failure in the war on terror. The dem's want us to fail. Nut jobs like John Murtha are throwing our Marines under the bus in Iraq, so they can make a political statement. According to Murtha, our Marine's are the criminals, not terrorist's. U.S forces have to abide by strict rules of engagement, the terrorist's don't, but as soon as a Marine kills an Iraqi that was deemed a threat, the media says "oh my god, you shot an innocent civilian". This kind of crap gets on my nerves.
4) Our mass media is not helping things either, all they report is suicide bombs, IED's, riots in the street, ect. They're have been some good things accomplished in Iraq that never gets reported. I will admit right now that Iraq is a bad situation and mistakes were made along the way.
5) When it comes to guns and the second ammendment, liberals argue strictly on emotion, if they have present facts, they are often manipulated or distorted to achieve their goals. Liberals cannot understand the concept that criminals do not obey laws, only citizens do, therefore gun control is a joke. Most of these elitist, follow me, I know whats best for you people have never held a gun, fired a gun, gone to a shooting range, been on a hunting trip, ect. They get on national T.V and all of a sudden they are the experts. Micheal Bloomberg is a classic example, you cannot have a gun, but he gets to walk around with armed body guards. He's one of the wealthy, rich, latte' drinking, intellectual idiots. Right now, gun ownership is at an all time high, but violent crime is at an all time low. You certainly cannot give credit to the revolving door of justice, this decline comes from loosening of state by state gun laws.
 
Liberals, much like children, use emotion rather than logic to reason. This is generally why the courses of action they opt to follow is usually wrong.
No way. A truly liberal person is open minded and not subject to same dogma as a Conservative when it comes to arguments. I consider myself pretty liberal and consider that good. It's how I was able to come to a pro-gun conclusion for myself without any upbringing around guns and growing up near a major city where guns were not typically a part of life.

See? Premises. We believe gun control is wrong. Period. If gun control could eliminate murder, we'd still oppose it. Would you support gun control to save 10,000 people a year? We wouldn't. 100,000? Nope. 1 million? Nope.
Seems silly to me. Are you talking gun control as in complete ban, or gun control as in background checks and registration? If something can be shown to be causing harm, it should be controlled if that control would actually work. I didn't say completely banned. Driving drunk is way more fun than driving sober, but it has been shown to cause accidents. Yes, I know driving isn't listed in the 2A, but should we allow people to drive drunk?

Spying on Americans? What a hypocritical statement, oh so very typical of you see-no-evil-except-Republican-evil neolibs.
More bunk. A liberal person calls it like it is. I've never understood these types of arguments. Since someone of the other side of the aisle got to do it, should we never worry about preventing it from happening? In the case of warrentless wiretaps, I also will never understand how someone that identifies themselves as a conservative thinks that the government usurping the 4A is a good thing.

I identify myself as a liberal person. Not "a Liberal" or a Democrat or whatever. I can't wait until the other side gets back in power (no, I can wait) so I can bash the government with the rest of the gun crowd. The difference is that I'll be bashing becuase it's true, some of you will be bashing because of aisle separation.

If you DON'T work to make money to buy food, than you should either:
A) STARVE or...
B) Mooch off of those who are sympathetic to your lazy arse.

I prefer "A" personally, as I hate seeing people get taken advantage of by losers, and starvation would free up more oxygen for the rest of us...
What do you propose for the large portion of the working class that works full-time at "big box" stores and still requires financial assistance from the government just to get by?
 
Wow, what a response.
I'm going to be leaving for training at Frontsight tomorrow, so after these responses, anyone else who wants to respond, feel free, or i'll pick up on Monday.

Why do liberals feel it's okay to mandate moral philosophy rather than allowing free choice in the matter from the people who have proven themselves by their actions and results in life to be contributors to our society?
[snip]
Here's another one. How can liberals honestly believe that government, which has no motivation whatsoever to contain costs and increase performance, can actually run things better than businesses who MUST do so every single day in order to survive in a competitive environment?
[snip]
And yet another. How can liberals honestly believe that government, which has a long history of indecisiveness and beauracratic overhead, be more responsive and responsible than an individual that makes their own choices in life?

BTW I edited it for brevity and ease of reading, not to imply anything about your arguments.

To me, it's more of "Which is more important, getting help to the most people possible, or getting the best help possible. If we could do both, that'd be wonderful, but, if we could make sure the most people got the most help in a way that didn't involve government, i'd be all for it.

As far as government vs. businesses, here's the difference: Businesses are answerable to their stockholders, while a government is answerable to the people as a whole. With all the inefficiencies involved in a government, I personally prefer that an entity answerable to us as a whole be involved, instead of a business answerable only to people that care about teh bottom line. Not that wasting money is good, it's not, but, to me, it's a secondary thing.

Yes, I said it: as a taxpayer, I'll pay more for services that are answerable to the people as a whole, instead of a business answerable only to people that hold the purse strings.
Also, financial incentives arent' always compatable with the public good. If a car company can save $10 million dollars by eliminating a safety device, but not let the consumer know, that's not in our best interest. This happens every day.

As far as morals, I'm not going to argue who has more morals. I'm not going to judge someone because they believe things differently than I do: I put my beliefs out there, and hope that people agree.

What about the general march towards the extremest ends by liberal parties. For example the kicking out of Lieberman who had been previously the Democrat vice presidential candidate, Howard Dean as the chairman of the Party, move on Dot Org.

I think this is a bit of a misnomer. One of what I see as a problem in the democratic party, is, that they are moving farther to the right in order to gander more votes. This only enforces the "there's no difference between parties" stuff. Take the debates between Gore and Bush. How many times did they both say they agree on a specific issue?

That raises the question -- If gun control could work, would you support it?
This is a sticky wicket for me. in some ways, I'm one of the "shall not be infringed!!!" crowd. However, I see some value in SOME MINOR gun control, mainly, laws to keep guns out of the hands of violent felons.
In my opinion, we have too many gun laws on the books today. We don't need the laws banning newly manufactured machineguns. The AWB was a joke. The laws making it difficult to transfer guns between the states is annoying and unnecessary.
I am, though, in favor of the current system of instant background checks. You have to flash an ID to buy cigs or beer, and I think a simple check like you have to go through today is all thats necessary. It helps, and it's the only hurdle you should have to deal with. It won't keep guns out of the hands of everyone, but I think it's a small price to pay for making an attempt.
I'm also against regestration, etc, etc.

I'm confused. In reformed Judaism the Law is now looked on as quaint customs and tradition?

I should clarify, I belong to a reform temple, but honestly am a bit more conservative than most, but not as conservative as most in the "conservative" movement. I'd probably belong to a conservative temple if I could find one that I liked in Dallas that wasn't messianic.

Check this url for more information:

http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm#US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Judaism

My major differences with the reform movement, is that I do believe that The Torah came from divinity.

There is also the Talmud:
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Talmud
Basically, the talmud is thousands of years of philosophical notes on the Torah

As far as the comment about the law, a great Rabbi, Solomon Schechter wrote, "...however great the literary value of a code may be, it does not invest it with infallibility, nor does it exempt it from the student or the Rabbi who makes use of it from the duty of examining each paragraph on its own merits, and subjecting it to the same rules of interpretation that were always applied to Tradition"

This to me is a basic difference between Judaism, as me and my family observe it, than what I take away from a lot of Christianity. This is a bit of a sticky subject, and I honestly don't want to offend anyone, so please don't take this to mean that I feel my beliefs are better. They are better FOR ME, though.
Most Jews these days accept that as society changes, the law must change.
 
oh...and let's not forget the thinly veiled threats to pull the FCC license of Disney for showing an unflattering portrayal of Bill Clinton in the Path to 9/11. Yeah...liberals always work within the confines of the law and the constitution.

As opposed to neocons simply threatening and paying off behind the scenes to get The Reagans successfully pulled from the networks. :rolleyes:

A LOT was downright made up for that new series, and they tried to get Scholastic to distribute study guides to kids...as if it were factual.

The Ministry of Truth is best left in "1984" where it belongs, thanks.
 
Here's my long $0.02


Modern Liberalism is not the liberalism of our founding fathers. All the morons on Democratic Underground can pound sand and turn blue in the face proclaiming a lineage to that political philosophy, but they are wrong and that is final. To argue over this would be futile as it's all there in writing and it would be like trying to argue that 2 is actually 5.


Modern Liberalism is tied to progressive philosophy which is leftwing and very authoritarian. This didn't come into existence till Karl Marx's era.


The Second Amendment, is simply not compatible with the entire belief structure of leftwing ideology. From their economics to their social policy, it all boils down to collectivism and the government being the vehicle for the progress of society. When that is the case, the "power" must rest with the government. That's fine, the founders wanted the government to have enough power to maintain a stable society - however, not the kind of power that creeps its way into every aspect of one's life. Liberals claim that their beliefs do not conclude to tyranny, but this is false - and we're seeing this right now.


You CANNOT believe in income taxation and the Second Amendment at the same time.

You CANNOT believe in welfare and the Second Amendment at the same time.

You CANNOT believe in conscription and the Second Amendment at the same time.


This list goes on and on...


Libertarian views, which are nothing more than the views of the founding fathers, are the only views truly compatible with a government that serves the people - not the other way around.


Consequently, socialism as an economic platform is incompatible with our constitution and the bill or rights. It is incompatible with liberty - unless your definition of liberty is to be taken care of at the expense of society. To progressives, who are leftists, liberty is freedom from economic oppression..aka poverty. You're free if you're not poor is the gist of their beliefs.

The only economic system compatitble with liberty is free-market capitalism. That is all based on the principle of private property. Our new-world tradition is based on private property unlike many eastern cultures. Without private property - there is no liberty. If you cannot protect your private property, they can take it away, when they take it away - it isn't yours anymore. What it isn't yours - you have no private property. When you have no private property - you have no liberty.

Sure, there are "pro-gun progressives" many of whom are popular members of THR and whatnot. I respect them, but I don't argue with them because this is a pro-gun forum and they're on the right side of that issue. Regardless of their belief in the 2nd Amendment, being a pro-gun progressive is the ultimate oxy-moronic term. To rationalize the incompatibility of beliefs, these folks compartmentalize issues. Unfortunately, this doesn't work.


Every single progressive issue and program would be impossible to implement without the backing of force. Their policies are the policies of private property theft. To steal property, you must have power. To have power, the government must have a huge advantage in the ability to project force. Having that advantage insures that those who are being robbed of their private property cannot resist. Therefore, the government, which is doing the will of the thieves, must monopolize the effective means of force projection.


That's called gun control.


How do liberals rationalize the 2nd Amendment with their anti-liberty economic and social beliefs? They put a STRONG emphasis on personal-protection and hunting.



Many on THR are guilty of this too. News flash guys - Concealed Carry is NOT what the Second Amendment is about. The Second Amendment is about preserving effective means by which to check government tyranny. That means full-autos and all the good stuff. Further more, licensed concealed carry is actually anti-Second Amendment, and we're all guilty of supporting that, but most of us (like myself) view it as a stepping stone to Vermont style carry, which is nothiing more than Second Amendment purity.


Many will argue that it would be insane for a population to own surface to air missles like Stingers, mortars, machine guns, RPG's etc...


I don't. Not at all. Why? Because a society that develops with the right to own and keep such things is a society that is inherently a society based on liberty. It would be a highly libertarian, highly individualist society where any collectivism would be impossible. Such a society would leave little to no room for governemnt tyranny or government growth. With little to no government grows, the corruption and decay of society is greatly reduced. Government creates most crime. Government creates most poverty. Government programs, tyranny and policies create the dysfunctional societal conditions by which people become CRAZY and go shoot up schools, and blow up buildings.


That being said, at one time people could buy dynamite in America with no problems. Did they terror bomb? No. People could buy a machine guns - did they go massacre each other? No. You could buy a rifle at sears and ammo at a convenience store. Did anyone shoot up schools? No.


Will such a society be pure of crime or violence? No, but it will be drastically less. People, when left to their own means, are, contrary to the statists and control-mongers, inherently GOOD. In school, as a young children, we are bombarded by pro-government, pro-control theory. We constantly read stories and ideas that people are complete and total savages unless they are controlled by police. Lord of the Flies. Everyone goes nutz without authority.


The miss one crucial fact. When you take a society that is NOT an individualist, liberty-minded society and you strip control away - chaos ensues. That society is a society built on dependence.


These tyrants, who perpetuate such thinking, are employing the politics of control by proclaiming that man is inherently evil. This is contrary to the truth. If you believe in God, then you must believe that man is created perfectly good, and then is corrupted. If you believe in science and nature, you must believe that lifeform will act for its own benefit, and that there's no incentive for raping, murdering, terrorizing etc during the process of living life. People will cooperate with each other for their own good. This is called cooperation, not collectivism.

People aren't animals meant to be herded or controlled. Animals, in the wild do fine for themselves. They don't need fences to live well. Likewise, people, do fine without a government to dictate what they have to learn, what school the must go to, what they can or cannot earn, what the can or cannot own, what they can or cannot drink or eat, what the can or cannot do in their bedrooms, what they can or cannot smoke.


MOLON LABE.
 
Taking your example with Prohibition: why do Liberals recognize that outlawing liquor, in an attempt to eliminate ALL drinking, failed miserably, but support gun control in the belief that it will eliminate ALL crime?

They do not seem to accept the fact that gun ownership by the law-abiding reduces crime, as a simple reduction in crime is not good enough. Liberals want ALL crime to cease and are willing to sacrifice anything for that end.

Once one realizes that a perfect nation will never exist then they are willing to consider merely a "more perfect union". Liberals seem to want to enforce their viewpoint of a perfect utopia, by force. They do not seem to embrace Freedom as their highest core value, and disregard the Constitution whenever it is inconveinient.

So, my question is, where do they get their core-values? Why do Liberals have inconsistant core values? How do they justify them and do they ever self-analyze their core values?
 
I applaud the OP for the sackular fortitude to touch THR's Third Rail... Being a liberal, and proclaiming it proudly, while supporting gun rights. You'll learn better... I sure did. :rolleyes:

There's some folks around here who find that position incomprehensible. Since they can't understand it, it can't exist. That's why they're conservatives. :evil:

Seriously, though, there is a very vocal group who simply won't believe that you exist, or that you cannot hold these beliefs. Don't let them shut you up. Not all of them are trying, but they raise the S/N ratio of these threads so high that the people who you will be able to have intelligent converse with won't be seen, and many will stay away. That's been the pattern here, and that's sad.

If you can't contribute anything to the discussion beyond "this discussion is nonsense," please go find something else to talk about and let us who think this conversation is not only possible, but important, have it in peace.

We all should guard against only talking to those we agree with. People of other political persuasions often enough have interesting things to say. We should listen to them. If we disagree with them, it should be because of what they've said about that issue, not because of what they may have said about something else. Granted, some perspectives are so different from mine that I'll give ideas from that "side" more scrutiny, and often more skepticism. Even that is a failing on my part, but I do try never to reject them out of hand. It's about the best I can do.

James Dobson or Pat Robertson may hold some position I can agree with. It hasn't happened yet, that I know of, but it's possible. In fact, since idea space is practically infinite, the odds are just as good now as they were before either one of them became public people.

It's politics, folks, not physics. There's often more than one right answer, and just as often, there's none. Two people can disagree radically on a political question... when they're both right, or both wrong. It's important to remember that.

--Shannon
 
My $.05

I appreciate the fact that Don't Tread On Me started talking about "Modern Liberalism". Things change, the parties have changed, the people who called themselves a Democrat in one era would be defined as a republican in another. I once read a book review in Business Week that said:
When it comes to the Democrats, the one constant was best identified by Will Rogers: "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat." And the common thread that runs through the GOP's history seems to be opposition to whatever the Democrats stand for.

But as has been pointed out a couple of times in this thread, I think DTOM (and others who preceeded you) are talking about the left wing of the Democratic party. Some decry the fact that the left wing is the voice of the Democratic party; this is similiar to the rabid religious right currently being the voice of the Republican party. Hopefully we'll find the right answers some where in the middle.

I define myself as a liberal (and I honestly don't know if that is a modern liberal or a T. Roosevelt Republican). I think you can be pro-2nd Amendment and be for taxation, etc. I'm pro-2nd Amendment for the same reason I'm pro-Choice and anti-Death penality. Frankly, I don't trust the government with that much power. I don't want them to have all the fire-power. I don't think they can make blanket laws about the health of individual woman. And I don't think they should be able to use their power to kill a citizen of this country (because the scale of power is weighted too much towards government such that it is to easy to abuse).

But I do believe that there is a role for a collective government, one in which we as a society agree on basic laws and enforce them with a police force. I think a government of the public should represent the public from large interests that are harming the public (i.e. corporations that poison our air and water with various pollutants that risk the health of the public). I believe that while "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" is not in the constitution, it's a founding principle of this country and one way to ensure that children start with an equal opportunity to attain that (regardless of their individual capabilities or actual achievements) is public education. All of that costs money so I'm willing to tax.

I also believe that the smaller and more local goverment is, the better (I think that use to be a Republican idea).

I think the federal government's primary role is defending this country. Over the long haul, we've gotten this right. That doesn't mean I accept that every military officials' or a President's decision has been the right one and, in fact, believe that they have some times endangered this country. And if you believe they got it wrong you have a responsbility to say so, even if you're in the middle of a war.

And I think we are all better off if we talk about what we like or don't like about certain policies and spend less time saying things like "The dem's want us to fail." or "Liberals … use emotion rather than logic to reason."
 
Leftists here are making utilitarian arguments that socialism is good for poor people. Empirically, this has not been the case. If you look at the amount of economic freedom and the standard of living of people within any given state, you will find that those nations in which people have the most economic freedom are also the states where people enjoy the highest standard of living. Conversely, poverty levels closely track the amount of socialism within a nation. It's true that poor people get "free stuff" in socialist nations, but when you assign a dollar value to all the "free stuff" you will find that it doesn't add up to much, and the people would be better off having more economic freedom, so that they, or a charitable contributer, could afford to buy the stuff.

The bottom line is that while socialism purports to help poor people, what it actually accomplishes is making more people poor.

Neither does socialism really provide a safety net; it merely provides an illusion of safety. Nearly every one of the millions of people who starved to death in the past century did so in a socialist paradise. The same is true of the millions who died for lack of basic health care.

The only ones who really benefit from socialism are government elites. If you want to help the poor donate to charity. If you really want to help the poor, hire them.
 
What do you propose for the large portion of the working class that works full-time at "big box" stores and still requires financial assistance from the government just to get by?


...see "A" above.
 
Your Jewish? Shalom, i'm Jewish too. A lot of Jews in the united states seem to be very liberal unfortunately however i'm hardcore conservative to the bone, my dad was too man he had a sweet gun collection.
 
As pure commentary, I don't view libertarianism as liberal. I know a lot of conservatives who would rather characterize themselves as libertarians. That said, I believe a pure republic would suit us much better, but that's just me.

I also don't see how you can reconcile with the ACLU. They've done so many horrible, counterproductive things. The irony of it all is they don't protect the right that protects them all.
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html
Licensing and registration anyone? Proof that politics run far deeper than beliefs in some circles. And this piece attempts to portray them in a neutral fashion. We all know what the Baldwins are really thinking once they finish up with the pool boys.
I was hardly political when I decided the ACLU was not a moral organization. When they emasculated LA's gang unit for "racial profiling" - nevermind that the gangs opt to align themselves by race, surely that was pure coincidence - they tore the gears out of a system that was working fairly well. This put many officers at risk, left a lot more criminals on the streets to put the citizens at risk, and the ultimate effect was a notable increase violent crime.

Just say no.
 
Nitrogen said:
I personally feel that we need to help out those that are less fortunate.

I'm glad you feel that way. Get to it.

However, what if I don't happen to like some of the less fortunate souls who are being helped? Or how they're being helped? Or who's doing the helping? Why should I be forced at gun point to aid in activities that violate my principles?

That's what statists of all but the most extreme variety don't understand: state power rests ultimately on violence. Fail to pay your taxes? Get fined. Refuse further? Go to jail. Refuse to go to jail? Get physically moved there. Resist being moved? Get beaten. Fight back against the beating? Get shot. That, my friend, is your coerced charity in a nutshell.

My question for you as a contemporary liberal is why does the left today refuse to acknowledge that Western civilization is unique, valuable, and worthy of preservation?
 
My question for you as a contemporary liberal is why does the left today refuse to acknowledge that Western civilization is unique, valuable, and worthy of preservation?

Toss out "unique" and I'll agree with you on that. "First of it's kind" I'll give you, but "unique" I don't buy. But... the West has not been always a force for good, and it's not anti-Western to admit it.

By the way, if you're a fan of Western civilization, read "The Western Tradition" Pblished in the 1960s, I think. It's a collection of our culture's founding documents, going back at least to the Code of Hammurabi. Fascinating stuff.

--Shannon
 
I'm against wellfare, well it's understandable if it's say 2-3 months and someone lost their job but why should someone be able to leech off wellfare for years and not have to do anything? That's not right and hurts us, I also think there should be standards who apply for wellfare. If we have illegal immigrants here and applying for wellfare thats a waiste of our money.
 
Toss out unique?

The West is like China? Or Mayan Mexico?

For that matter, is China like Mayan Mexico?

Every civilization is unique. The West is not unique because it is civilized, it is unique because it has its own civilizational traits.
 
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