If Hunters held turnbolts, etc to the same standards as "Enthusiasts" hold AR makers?

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As we know, due to the tremendous popularity and online discussions of all things related to 'black rifles', there is an overwhelming amount of scrutiny applied to every detail of every part or accessory related to these rifles from all makers & sellers, the likes of which we have never seen. Scrutiny of materials, performance, ergos, features, other design elements, and overall value in general.

Now, don't get me wrong, gun buyers have always been a slightly more demanding consumer than the average consumer of other goods, but never before like the scrutiny we have now, among the black rifle folks (myself included). Of course, this is a good thing, as it holds the makers' feet to the fire and produces great quality and selection for us, the consumers.

But "non-gun-nut" hunters, for lack of a better description, don't hold this same severe level of scrutiny to their typical hunting rifle purchase, which 8 times out of 10 is a turnbolt rifle (albeit here and there a single shot or pump or levergun). What would be some of the specific results of such scrutiny 5 or 10 years from now, in your estimation and belief?

I'll start:

1. The Mossberg levergun will go the way of the dodo
2. NEF would have to copy T/C, Rossi, etc., by making their hammers low and swept back, not a high rise deal. They would also have to polish their chambers from the factory so brass didn't almost always stick.
3. Mossberg would have to do a major PR campaign and recall and some sort of design fix on the ATR / 4x4 to assuage the fears of bolts going through people's faces, rather than skating under the radar like they are now.
4. The T/C Icon and Venture would dominate the competition, putting 1 or more other makers out of business or at least greatly curtailing their product line offerings.

What else?
 
I'll play as I eagerly await the bbl on my ruger 77 mkII all weather to cool.

Tc encores and other break action single shot designs will be abandoned in favor of entry level bolt guns on the basis if accuracy (or lack thererof) and folks will realize what a ripoff paying 2/3 rds the price of a complete boltgun for just a bbl is.
 
There will be a lot of "New Cartridge of the Month" gun owners with rifles they can no longer buy ammo for.

Some of the WSSM Whizzem line comes to mind.
As well as the plethora of .300 Mag chamberings that all do the same thing.

rc
 
I note that out of your list only 2 have to do with turn bolts.

I also wonder if you've shot the new venture or icon yet? If so what were your rang time impressions?
 
4. The T/C Icon and Venture would dominate the competition, putting 1 or more other makers out of business or at least greatly curtailing their product line offerings.

That might have had some merit before the new Model 70 came out. It no longer does.
 
AR-15 connoisseurs will spend $300 on an adjustable stock. That same money can purchase a decent entry level Savage or Marlin turn bolt...this will be a difficult comparison to make.
 
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AR-15 connoisseurs will spend $300 on an adjustable stock. That some money can purchase a decent entry level Savage or Marlin turn bolt...this will be a difficult comparison to make.
THAT is a very good point!

I would like to point out that $300 clams is just for the BUTTstock that a forend is still requ'd that can cost just as much if not more
 
There would be a magical omniscient chart, and any gun not on the left side would be an object of scorn and ridicule. Fanboys would declare guns like a Stevens 200 pieces of junk, without even knowing what about those guns was worthy of disparagement.
 
If you had the same level of attention given to EBR I think you'd find a lot more bolt-actions coming with significantly improved fit and finish and more attention paid to ergonomics. E.g. some bolt actions are known for the handle not clearing the scope eye piece unless the scope is mounted really high. Others are known for having rough actions that take either a polishing or a lot of use to smooth out. Some others have poorer accuracy than they should due to rough throats, or the bolt face not being square, etc. You'd probably see more attention paid to stock design with perhaps some adjustable stocks being made affordably.

Doing all of that would force the prices to go up, but competition would constrain that and prevent entry level rifles from getting as expensive as some of the high quality semi/full custom rifles are now that meet all of those criteria now.
 
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AR-15 connoisseurs will spend $300 on an adjustable stock. That same money can purchase a decent entry level Savage or Marlin turn bolt...this will be a difficult comparison to make.
True, but the avearge AR owner is not going to buy those expensive parts. Just like the average hunter doesnt buy a Cooper or a Weatherby Mk V.
 
^^^ Quite frankly, Look at A.I. or Surgeon rifles and quite a few others who have answered this question for us. High end custom, target, and tactical rifles do exist and have been made for years for a price. Just like the uber quality EBR's. And your right not everyone buys them.
 
If you had the same level of attention given to EBR I think you'd find a lot more bolt-actions coming with significantly improved fit and finish and more attention paid to ergonomics.

Exactly...

to add a couple, there would be a single-point sling attachment ring on the top left rear of receivers, and more (and more ergo) pistol grip stocks.
 
Agreed but the major point is that most hunters don't buy new rifles. They buy used pawn shop guns. That can come with a wide range of problems from barrels to bolts and even saftey issues and it is to late for most firearms company's to fix what they have already done to the market and complain all you want but you can still but a marlin 30-30 in places for 350 bucks and still get the scope and mounts at walley world and that is what will continue to happen. And as for the h&r's my very first gun was a h&r and I have had a copule and true the shells do hand but for the price they are rugged and reliable...(once you polish the chamber)
 
but the major point is that most hunters don't buy new rifles. They buy used pawn shop guns.

I must disagree with that - there are oodles upon oodles of new turnbolts being sold everywhere, not to mention single shots, pumps, levers and "sporting" semis. These are mostly sold to hunters, of course.
 
AR-15 connoisseurs will spend $300 on an adjustable stock. That same money can purchase a decent entry level Savage or Marlin turn bolt...this will be a difficult comparison to make.

No it won't. Why would you think that price per small part is exclusive to an AR? A McMillan stock for a bolt action is 500+, a new Wild West happy trigger for a 336 lever action is 100 dollars, a DRC replacement lever for a 336/1895 lever is 140. A Williams peep sight, the good one, is 75. We could go on and on. Custom checkering, custom bluing, custom barrels, ect., ect.

Agreed but the major point is that most hunters don't buy new rifles. They buy used pawn shop guns.

What? I mean, huh? Are you serious?
 
I think overall the quality of bolt guns is better now than it has ever been before. I don't buy your premise that bolt gun buyers are any less discriminating than EBR buyers. Not everyone wants an EBR, some of us are happy with a nice wood stock hunting rifle. Take, for example the new Marlin XL7, when in history could one buy a rifle of this quality for less than $350 new? The same could be said of Savage rifles and several other manufacturers.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/centerfireBoltAction/XL7w.asp

Here's my quote from Davidson's...

MSRP: $396.95
Sale Price: $311.99
Addit'l Fees: $13.95
Tax: $18.72
Sub Total: $344.66
DEPOSIT: ($99.24)
BALANCE DUE: $245.42

MFC_XL7_synth.jpg


NEW Model XL7
The XL7 has been built for those who demand premium features at a fair price. Noteworthy features include our NEW adjustable Pro-Fire™ trigger system, Soft-Tech™ recoil pad, fluted bolt for speed and smoothness, a pillar bedded stock for accuracy and recessed "target style" muzzle crown Price right, the XL7 is a rifle that you can be proud of at a price you can afford.

Calibers 25-06 Rem.
270 Win.
30-06 Spr.
Capacity 4+1
Action Centerfire bolt action, Pro-Fire™ adjustable trigger system, fluted bolt, 2 position safety and red cocking indicator.
Stock Black Synthetic with Soft-Tech™ recoil pad.
Barrel 22"
Twist Rate 1:10" r.h.
Sights/Scope One piece scope base included.
Overall Length 42 1/2"
Weight 6 1/2 lbs. Download Owner's Manual

The quote above is for the 270...
 
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I think we are comparing apple to plums. AR's are not entry level semi auto firearms, price wise at least. They are mid to high cost mass produced semi-autos. To compare that to a stevens 200, and entry level bolt action (a good one from what I hear) instead of something like a browning x-bolt is a bit dishonest. People DO hold the bolt action producers to the same standard when the gun costs as much. To compare entry level repeaters, like the (flame suit on) sks, or if you want American made a mini -xx, then it would be fair to compare them to your 100 ATR and XL7's.
 
This may or may not be directly relevant, but also consider the price spreads between ARs and boltguns.

Typically market value for an entry-level AR starts at approximately $600, and goes up to roughly $2000 (for the rifle itself, discounting any additional premiums for engraving, gold-plating, fancy wood stocks, etc). In comparison, the low end of the boltgun market is approximately half that of an AR (~$300), and at the same time the high end of the market can very nearly be double or triple that of even the high-end boutique AR manufacturers like Noveske and Les Baer (Accuracy International, Sako, Blaser, GAP, etc).

In essence, there's far more price variation within the boltgun market than there is between AR manufacturers, all things being equal. Whether or not this matters, I can't say, but it's still interesting to ponder.
 
If there were more scrutiny of hunting rifles, the Remington 700 series would FINALLY get a 3 position safety or go belly up. :rolleyes: I love my Remingtons, but this is a sore spot.
If consumers got as picky as the OP suggests the rem 700 would also get something other than a reamed out pipe of an action and a better engeneered bolt than the current soldererd togeather from pieces affair.
 
I pondered a similar take about a month back when I asked myself, "Geno, 1 Surgeon rifle with a Nightforce scope, or 3 lesser rifles with Leupold scopes?!" If I had it all to do over again, I might just go the surgeon route.

That said, ever'-once-in-a-while, Remington, Weatherby Winchester at al, put out a rifle that has a tight (zero-play) bolt, and glass smooth bore. I actually own a Remington M700 that both of the bolt's lugs ride fully-flat on the receiver face when closed! I know, it sounds a tall tail, but I have seen it, and those are the one I buy!

I take my time looking all over for such Remington, Winchester, Weatherby, heck, even a Kimber today. Any rifle that has a sloppy bolt is out for me. Any rifle that has copper built-up in the bore right from the factory is too rough for me. I likely review 30 rifles before I find one that meets my standards. And I refuse to buy a rifle that I can not dry fire first.

Regardless of how picky we are, eventually we still get an expensive piece of junk. Check out my new Winchester "Super" Grade in the repair section here. It will make you feel like crying, or something..."Super" Grade?! Sheesh!

Thread title: New Winchester Super Grade Not So "Super" - THR
Thread Link: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=505820

Fantastic thread! Thanks, OP.

Geno
 
Heck, I'm still waiting for a bolt rifle that is as well built and smooth as my k-31. All these synthetic rifles today don't feel sturdy to me.
 
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