One-Shot Incapacitation by Handgun Compared

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A 32 ACP is more effective than a rifle or shotgun? Hmm... Put down the crack pipe and step away from the spreadsheet graph.
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Btw, I have a pocket knife that's more effective than a Shirasaya Wakizashi T10 Clay Tempered Steel samurai sword. Just sayin'.
 
Stopping power threads are allways fun and entertaining! But my poodle knows that if there were no difference in stopping power between a .22LR and a .44 mag we would ALL be carrying .22LR's for everything. For LEO's that can and do engage in offensive combat with a handgun should pick the most powerful handgun that they can shoot accurately and effectively..the more round capacity the better...For little old me who would rather run away...I am very happy with a small compact concealable handgun of just about any caliber to protect myself from thugs that can outrun me...
 
carry the biggest caliber you can comfortably carry and handle.

The other factor is where you are going. If you are going to a really bad area, more and bigger arms. If you are in a good area, a vest pocket 32 might just do.

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There they are, the incorrect (IMO) rationalizations for carrying a 32:
People are harder to incapacitate based on location.
People from the "bad area" are conveniently perceived immobile.

Stick with your 1st statement, carry the bigger caliber that you can handle, shoot well, everywhere.

I live in a "good area"; I've had like $22 cash in my Jeep glove box unlocked in the driveway for over a year, no point locking it when the windows zip out.
I'm not carrying for the friendly people I normally encounter walking the dogs in my "good area".
Odds are if I have to defend myself the threats came from elsewhere, too a little field trip to my "good area".
If I want at least 9mm (I do) when I go elsewhere outside the "good area" to hopefully stop threats ASAP before they can inflict serious or lethal injury then logically I want the same ASAP potential wherever I might have to defend myself including my "good area" - the elsewhere gun is the everywhere gun, 9mm minimum.
 
It's important to remember that the FBI "penetration" requirements are designed for Engineering comparisons, not physiological ones.

Allegedly, the Feebs took their shooting data of what/when/who/where, then took the ammo used to the range and shot it at a uniform material. The Material they used was "ballistics gelatin," a contrary substance overly sensitive to temperature and humidity and storage conditions.

But, even for being contrary, it was/is repeatable. Shoot a 147gr 38spl into a block today, and the results will be similar tomorrow, or next week. That is the key to the material, and how it is measured in use.

But, far too many want to equate "gelatin penetration" depth with "human body depth," and that's inaccurate. It's an analog comparison. Person xx was struck with ammunition yy and had zz effect--that same ammo goes nn inches into the testing medium when shot at ff distance.

If when the testing was started, the modern clear gelatin had been available, the use of the all natural animal gelatin (chosen as it's uniform, not for being natural) would have been eschewed.

One of the major problems with all these derived-from-actual-shootings statistics is that life or death in humans is often a distance far larger than a bullet diameter--it can be ten bullet diameters or more.
 
Well I guess one could conclude that shot placement is far more important than caliber. However, the smaller the caliber, the more precise that shot placement must be to be effective.

You can also say that if someone zigs, instead of zags, that it might matter, too. If a tenth of an inch matters to you when it comes to how you wish to consider accuracy of placement, that's your prerogative.

Yes, it was mentioned in the '89 FBI report as possibly offering an advantage, theoretically, but even then nobody could put a number to it, and over more time the emphasis on a larger caliber (by ONE millimeter) has waned and swung back to a smaller caliber, once again. It's just a defensive handgun. Not a phaser.
 
The firearms field is full of catch phrases, and there are a number which tend to make me roll my eyes and pass up conversations about them. Among them are:

"One-shot stops"
"Stopping power"
"Over penetration"
"Two is one and one is none"

Many are nothing more than old marketing tools that just won't die away, fear mongering phrases, or perhaps some catch phrase simply uttered by a known name in the field that caught on.

One thing's for sure...if we all bought into all of them, we'd be so heavily laden down with firearms and ammo we wouldn't be able to stand, much less carry concealed.
 
If the graph was true, how would it change your behavior?

If the graph was false, how would it change your behavior?

-Stan

Me?

Back when it was newly released, it didn't change anything about how I thought of the complex subject. ;) Didn't matter whether it was true/false. (Although I'm inclined to take the author of the work at his word for how it was done, unless it can be demonstrated otherwise.)

I still didn't see 'caliber' being worth my time to worry and agonize over. That train had left the station several years prior.
 
Now that the .32 has been eviscerated, we can all go back to worshiping the amazing stopping power of the .25 acp.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/the-most-awesome-25acp.904977/

From the OP in that thread:
"History says 25% of people shot by it are incapacitated"
If you point out that means 75% of people shot by it are not incapacitated you get accused of being a downer, trying to ruin the thread.

I don't get it.
Wen I was limited by work clothes and a pocket gun was the "best I could do" I discontently carried a LCP 380.
My reply in this thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/pocket-380-vs-snub-38.905415/
I was in your situation (limited by work clothes) before and it sucked. :(
I had the same choice, LCP 380 or 38 snub; I went with the 380.
There are a couple of 380 loads that can penetrate at least 12'' and consistently expand:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
Ex: Hornady Critical Defense and Sig V Crown
I'd rather have 7 rounds than 5

Now that the original question was answered...
Outside of work strive to carry something more (like a 9mm with 8+ rounds) even for a "quick trip to the store" in a
"good area". ;)
On days when I was not at work, when I could do better than a pocket 380 I carried a Glock 19/23/32 - that was the "best I could do".

Perhaps in the 25 acp thread or in whatever 32 acp thread it is actually the "best they can do".
Maybe a 25 or 32 acp is all they have, their only choice, then it is the "best they can do".
Maybe they have a 9mm Shield, Glock 19/48, or 1911 but must tuck their shirt at work and can't carry the bigger gun, smaller gun is "best they can do"
Yes, I know tuckable holsters are a thing, but giving the benefit of a doubt to NPE, work.

Or maybe a 25 or 32 in pocket is the "best they are willing to do" in that they could carry a larger caliber but choose not to; they don't want to wear a holster or are a slave to unrequired shirt tucking. My guess is this.
 
So Bad Leroy Brown was right to carry a .32 in his shoe.
Mr. Brown ended up looking like a jig saw puzzle with a couple of pieces missing..
- - so - he was probably not right to pack the .32 ;)
(the one he carried in his pocket for fun)

To the OP - that chart has been around 20 years or longer.
The only reason the .32 did so well is that the few number of them included in the statistics had a higher percentage of one shot stops.
If you take a random sample of 100 people that have had a one shot stop, then ask them what they used, maybe only 1 or 2 people had used a .32 - whereas - 40 or more had used a 9mm.

It's junk science.
 
I know from hunting that you can shoot two of the same type of animal in very similar places and come out with different results. I also know that in human examples, what is or is not fatal is often the result of what medical treatment was received and how quickly. I know of a lot of one shot stops with various calibers that were non-fatal, non-incapacitating, and a few that didn't even hit the bad guy. Psychological stops are great when they happen, and they do happen, but are not very predictable.

A lot of these shot percentages are thrown out there like they mean something. However, virtually no two people are ever shot exactly the same way. Shot distances, angles, circumstance, bullet types, velocities, etc. are often quite varied. You can find accounts of people shot in the heart that survived, the survivors being fatally shot, had they not gotten the correct care fast enough. As such, they are not in the fatal category, which is really interesting. After all, how can caliber take into consideration the speed and skill of subsequent medical care? Many people may become incapacitated by a single shot, but is the incapacitation instant, quick, or maybe minutes or hours later.

The numbers are just a mathematical derivatives of generalized categories that fail to take in a lot of very relevant factors that influence the success of the impact of the shot on the intended target. As such, while the resultant numbers appear very precise and are heuristically interesting, they are also false precision. No doubt this is why the .32 appears to be a wonder caliber occupying a magical synergistic crossroads of a comparatively smaller caliber, lighter weight, reduced energy, moderate velocity, reduced to moderate penetration, etc.

+1

Plus I believe most handgun 'stops' are psychological rather than physiological, and how are you going to quantify that?
 
In their final report on the ammunition trials of 1904, Thompson and Lagarde concluded that they could find "no projectile launched by a handgun" capable of reliably stopping a "determined adversary" if it traversed soft tissue alone. The report went on to note that many individuals are so demoralized by the idea of being shot, that they drop out of the fight with medically minor wounds. I tend to agree that the "one shot stop" is a myth created by gun writers with no combat experience but, rather, a particular axe to grind.
 
I tend to agree that the "one shot stop" is a myth created by gun writers with no combat experience but, rather, a particular axe to grind.

I don't know that one shot stops are a myth in an of themselves. They do happen. However, and I think this is huge, the notion of attaining them within any sort of statistical predictability certainly would be a myth and we delude ourselves into believing that historical data are somehow excellent predictors of future events. In some cases, such as with card counting, they most certainly are and the probabilities work out very well. This is because in card counting, the events are not mutually exclusive. The events of the previous hands have a direct and real impact on the outcome of future hands (until the shuffle). However, every single shooting used from history to derive the OSS percentage is mutually exclusive from each an every shooting you or I might ever be in at some point in the future. What happened in the past has no impact on what happens in the future in terms of outcome between shootings.
 
we did have a good portion of one class on specifically
LoL, when I took STAT 651 (from the Department Head, no less) the instructor would go, "Y'all are grad students, so pay attention to [this]..." Sometimes that was clarity; sometimes it was a labor-saver; sometimes it was a legitimate obfuscation--it was illuminating.
 
Okay, to the OPs question I'll assume any one-shot-stop is the Marshall and Sanow... thing.

Thing because it's not a study. Their data gathering method is arbitrary, their classification system non-existent so it's all subject to many types of bias. Their first book has been actually pulled from publication because there were numerous flat out errors, mistakes in their data and stories.

There is NO statistical analysis in the book. None. And often the strange data is due to very very very small sample sizes. Without looking, let's say the .32s rate of stopping is based on 6 shootings. Um... that's pretty hard to call "data" at that point, and compared to (also made up) the 856 9 mm shootings, that's a confidence problem they are not addressing.

They like to talk of the behavior of specific bullets but that just makes it worse.

If by some miracle you had a representative sampling (dozens of shots per cartridge and load, all on video and with autopsy results: you still would have a bias: one-shot-stops. Back when the first one came out you could also see number of shots fired, and notice that revolvers had fewer shots per target. Because; 5 or 6 rounds available. Very few shootings with hits go past a reload. Same for higher recoiling rounds.

So, self-loaders and lower recoiling ones, come out worse on one-shot-stops because they are rarely shot that slowly. We keep firing until the threat goes away.

One-shot-stop is magical thinking. Ignore it.

Good ballistics? Doc Roberts is as good as it gets plus does a lot of public work.
Handgun cartridges: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo
5.56 cartridges: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads
 
Now this is the sort of one shot stopping power I am looking for.

Watched an episode of Forged in Fire, and Doug Marcaida had a challenge for the knifesmiths to make a “Kortada”, based on the Philippine Recon Marine Ginunting knife. You can get an original Ginunting, not cheap, but very interesting design.

What I noticed when the first blade was tested, that Doug aimed the last cut right between the teeth of the ballistic dummy, and he did it again on the second ballistic dummy.

ndsZIfw.jpg

The results for both was the complete removal of the head, just above the lower jaw. You can see the ballistic teeth flying through the air, and the hole for the fake spinal core.

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Now that would be a one stop shot!

Thirty two caliber phooey, make mine a big bad knife

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All of these percentage assertions and such are 100% worthless as they do not account for specific organs/systems damaged.
 
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