If Not A Glock, Then What?

[FL-NC]

Well, my command chose the Glock to replace the M9 way before "big army" moved to the Sig. My old command elected to stay with the Glock. My understanding is that "big army" didn't want a pistol without an "off switch". I was issued 5 different pistols at different times during my military service (1911, M9, Sig 228, MK23, Glock 19) and opportunities to train with many more pistols. My opinion and the general consensus among my contemporaries is that the Glock was and is ideal for us.

 

[DocRock]

How vague and covert...

Ubiquity also has merits, such as healthy 3rd party aftermarket support, commonality of parts, cheap supplemental parts and accessories (i.e. magazines, wear items, etc.). Ubiquity combined with known quality and huge acceptance in high level use such as competition shooting, police, military, etc. says a lot more about a product than just its "ubiquity."

Ubiquity is a definite factor in my decision making on lots of areas of life, but it is never the only factor in decisions.

Ubiquity has the benefits of critical mass in pricing and advancements of said ubiquitous item. Very few entrepreneurs want to take a risk on developing accessories and advancements on items of rarity.

There must be a herd for there to be ubiquity. But it remains a dubious quality.

 

[Old Dog]

@SharpDog, thanks for the video. I've read the first two of Carr's books, and he's the real deal. I knew I like the way the guy thinks; those are about my exact picks as well.
For years, this was my everyday carry: some form or another of a 1911 Commander-sized:


After finally putting down the man gun, I went with the classic SIG P-series



... then up-dated to the Legions



Now I'm here:



And if I feel I need 17 +1 with a 21-round spare mag:



Have not yet mastered the RDS on a pistol ... work in progress

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Personally I’m biased to the M&P 2.0 line.

But I’ll stop short of saying they’re the best as I don’t know how you measure the best with so many choices.

for me M&P beats Glock, Sig and other comparable competitors in:

American products made in the USA by an American company. Glock is Austrian, Springfield makes their guns in Europe. HK makes them here in VA but they’re European, etc.

Price. Smith prices the M&P lower than brands that are on the same tier.

 

[tomrkba]

Police departments are this nation’s subject matter experts on gun fighting with handguns. They have gone to the polymer framed pistols. Glocks are pretty darned good. SM&P’s, SIG P226, and many others are fine for the role. In the end, it doesn’t matter too much if the organization can support the gun.

 

[Siscowet]

This discussion will go on for the next 100 Years. Minimum. Never liked the Glock grip angle. Too used to the 1911 grip angle. When I transitioned, I went to the FNX 45, which they purposely incorporated the 1911 grip angle. After 5 years, and countless rounds it is second nature And never had a FTF or FTE. So this is it for me. 15 rounds of 45 acp is reassuring.

 

[daniel craig]

Either the VP9 or the FN 509 for me.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

In the trials before the most recent MHS trials, I guess the PX4 Storm .45 was dominating. There's some (obviously biased) reports from Beretta from reps at SHOT Show that year. Plus, someone recently posted about a 100,000 round one on another thread.

I would also wager the CZ75 is a hall-of-fame combat pistol.

But if I had to outfit an Army, and didn't care about modular frames, I'd probably go M&P 2.0 if I wanted striker, or HK P30 for hammer.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I have trained people. If you haven't then you have no idea. The simpler the better. Thats why I'd pick a striker or DAO/DAK or LEM (all of which i personally despise but they are simple and consistent) for training the masses.. The more rounds available the better. The best combat gun for me personally will not be the best for someone who is 120lbs and never fired a gun.

Which gun?
Put the 320/ Glock/ HK/M&P/Xd/FN etc (would have to be produced on shore) in a barrel and draw one. Personal preference aside there just isn't enough difference to bicker. They all work

The cost of ownership was one factor.

I always wanted to think that way too. Then I was front row for such "trials". Not for a weapon but for a material used for an advanced bdu. Cost and "who you know" was the main factors. And I say that as the "winner" too. Not a sore loser. It has to meet the requirements but excelling far beyond those requirements didn't push the others above the ones that just met them. If you or I were choosing for our own use, the decision wouldn't have been the same as the one made. Our product wasn't great and our capabilities weren't what was needed either.

 

[reddog81]

It has to meet the requirements but excelling far beyond those requirements didn't push the others above the ones that just met them. If you or I were choosing for our own use, the decision wouldn't have been the same as the one made. Our product wasn't great and our capabilities weren't what was needed either.

That's a big consideration that needs to be realized when these discussions happen. Just because something was chosen by a government agency doesn't mean it's the best option. Often times it just means it was the cheapest option that met their minimum requirements.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I like hammer fired guns.

I know that it's a technology that is no longer necessary but I like the trigger options that are possible with hammer fired guns.

I think DA/SA is far safer, and I think SAO offer some of the most forgiving triggers on the planet.

When I was a lad, I had to have the Navy SEAL gun, so I bought a P226.
Now I have 3 and am looking for a 4th.

knowing then what I know now, I probably would have gone the CZ 75 (PCR, BD or SAO) route instead.

For reference:

 

[AK103K]

Whats that abomination on the side of your SIG in front of the hammer?

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Whats that abomination on the side of your SIG in front of the hammer?

LOL The safety lever?

That's the only SAO sig I have, if it is helps LOL

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Police departments are this nation’s subject matter experts on gun fighting with handguns.

Hmmmmm... I am curious as to how you arrived at this opinion.

My experience with police officers and training or shooting on the range would not indicate that many LEO are shooters.

I have shot with some phenomenally good LEO shooters, however. But that appears to be the anomaly not the norm.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

@SharpDog, thanks for the video. I've read the first two of Carr's books, and he's the real deal. I knew I like the way the guy thinks; those are about my exact picks as well.
For years, this was my everyday carry: some form or another of a 1911 Commander-sized:
View attachment 948862

After finally putting down the man gun, I went with the classic SIG P-series

View attachment 948863

... then up-dated to the Legions

View attachment 948864

Now I'm here:

View attachment 948865

And if I feel I need 17 +1 with a 21-round spare mag:

View attachment 948866

Have not yet mastered the RDS on a pistol ... work in progress

View attachment 948871

I see you are man of culture as well

 

[JO JO]

CZ or SIG
They have a long service history globally,

 

[Lennyjoe]

I’m on a Walther kick right now. Only reason I’m buying more Glocks is because they have a great LEO/Military Blue Label program and I save a lot of money buying that way.

 

[Stumper]

I think that the SigP2XX series and the CZ75 and variants have probably matched a wider variety of hands well and been found easy to hit with than just about any fullsize pistols. Lots of the new crop from various makers have changeable backstraps that help with fitment. I think Glocks are good tools and use them............but best is an awfully difficult cut to make. Sorry, my non answer is because I don't think it is answerable other than as a personal preference.

 

[Old Dog]

Just because something was chosen by a government agency doesn't mean it's the best option. Often times it just means it was the cheapest option that met their minimum requirements.

And oftentimes, a company will basically provide its firearms initially for virtually free to agencies for their initial switch to its guns. S&W, around 2006 through 2008, followed Glock's business model of the previous decade, and in order to gain entry with its new pistols (the M&P-9 and M&P-40), offered unbelievable deals to agencies willing to trade in their previous issue gun for its guns.

Hint: it's not the "gun guys and gals" in law enforcement agencies who select their departments' new duty issue. If it were, at least in my department, we'd all be carrying Dan Wesson DWX, HK-45 or SIG P-226 Legion SAO pistols (I could live with a CZ-75, for sure).

I have trained people. If you haven't then you have no idea. The simpler the better. Thats why I'd pick a striker or DAO/DAK or LEM (all of which i personally despise but they are simple and consistent) for training the masses.. The more rounds available the better. The best combat gun for me personally will not be the best for someone who is 120lbs and never fired a gun.

I can almost agree here. I started training military personnel back in the day on 1911s, which had a little steeper learning curve; when we transitioned to the M9, qual scores overall went up, in spite of the bigger pistol.

After the military, I worked for an employer that briefly issued Ruger P-85 (then 89) at the academy (ugh), but most of the officers preferred the 3rd gen S&W pistols, although some carried SIGs. I then worked for a while with a department (that went to Glocks) that grandfathered the old Smiths and Beretta 92FS pistols, ending up being issued the HK USP. Try training people with zero firearms experience on the USP (V1, w/decocking frame safety). Eventually ended up with an American polymer-framed striker pistol and qual scores went up drastically. Hugely.

HOWEVER: in my experience, anyone who wants to become proficient with any platform (yes, I'm using that damn term, because it's totally applicable, if it offends you, I don't care) will become proficient. It's only those who only shoot annually or semi-annually for line quals and never plan to have to use their pistol who should be stuck with a base model striker-fired pistol.

 

[Wimbo]

Sig P226 will always be my absolute favorite, it's sexy, it's reliable, and its battle proven. I like my Glock 43, I'll carry it till I die probably but I will never enjoy shooting any glock over shooting my 226

 

[valnar]

The 'is Glock the best combat handgun ever' thread got me wondering. Only about 30% voted Yes. I was one of them. But that means around 70% think the Glock isn't the best choice. So if it's not a Glock, what is it?

For me, generally it starts with the word SIG followed by some other letters & numbers forming a variety of models.

 

[.308 Norma]

Sig P226 will always be my absolute favorite, it's sexy, it's reliable, and its battle proven. I like my Glock 43, I'll carry it till I die probably but I will never enjoy shooting any glock over shooting my 226

That's me. I like my Glock 19 a lot, and that's what I usually carry. But my Sig M11-A1 is my favorite for shooting.
BTW, welcome to THR Wimbo.

 

[Hangingrock]

I have Glocks in 9X19mm & 45ACP, now back in their OEM packaging residing in the safe. My preference is S&W MP series with my EDC being a Shield 9X19mm.If for some reason I opted to EDC a 45ACP it would be a 1911 series, the first handgun I fired at MCRD Parris Island SC..

 

[tomrkba]

Hmmmmm... I am curious as to how you arrived at this opinion.

My experience with police officers and training or shooting on the range would not indicate that many LEO are shooters.

I have shot with some phenomenally good LEO shooters, however. But that appears to be the anomaly not the norm.

Mas Ayoob and a few other gun trainers who do this stuff for a living. I was thinking of a quote from Mas in MAG-20 when I wrote that.

You are thinking about this incorrectly. It has nothing to do with the individual officer. It's about the organization, the teaching, and the analysis that their analysts do after shootings. Those people are the ones who make the scenarios for training with Simunitions and the movie screen, analyze the reports, make recommendations for training and policy, etc.

 

[tomrkba]

Whats that abomination on the side of your SIG in front of the hammer?

LOL

It's the "Make a great gun, better" switch!