Ignorance will = A negligent discharge! Capstick Method

[H&Hhunter]

Peter Capstick was a brilliant writer, love him or hate him, he is a good read. I used to love reading his stuff until after several hunts on the Dark Continent changed my impression of the veracity of his "non fictional" stories somewhat. In any case he is very entertaining and extremely descriptive to read.

HOWEVER he has done the world a great disservice in his description of how to "safely" handle a rifle. In one or more of his books he describes the method of chambering a round and holding the trigger back while gently closing the bolt on a live round claiming that since the firing pin spring is relaxed that it makes the rifle safe to carry as a possibly faulty safety latch is now out of the picture. And P.H.C.'s description and "safety" advice in this regard was dead
WRONG!!!!!!

"Dead" bolting a bolt action rifle in this manner is out right dangerous in the least and just plain STUPID at it's best and here is why.

Think about what you are doing. You are relaxing the firing pin so that it is in it's most extended position. The firing pin is now resting on the face of the primer and in fact is being held against the primer face with some tension by the firing pin spring. Drop or jar that rifle just right and with just enough force and the firing pin will (not can, not may, but WILL) have enough striking force to set the primer off, and obviously, causing the rifle to fire.

Magnum magazine of South Africa tested multiple rifle that had been set up in this condition and nearly all were made to fire some with a drop on the butt from as little as 6" (THAT'S INCHES) folks.

Why bring it up now? Well, this a rifle handling urban legend that just won't die. I had a guy proudly show me the "Capstick" carry method just the other day and loudly proclaimed to all that it was the safest way there is to carry a rifle.

I took a black felt tipped pen and painted his case head with it then pointed the rifle down range and "dead" bolted his rifle. He just about pooped a brick when he saw the firing pin drag marks across the case head and the small indentation the firing pin left on his primer.

Folks when you fully understand the mechanics of this procedure there shouldn't be one single solitary sane or logical shooter out there who would ever consider handling a rifle when it is in this configuration. Please think about it and please if you are doing this stop it before you have an ND and possibly something much much worse than just an embarrassing situation.

 

[splithoof]

I watched that very incident play out when a total
"Range Bozo" put a round through his truck floor, and had his front tire shot out. Best part was telling him that he would have to wait nine or ten hours in the hot sun before I could give him a ride back to the nearest town!

 

[MtnCreek]

Wow. It’s hard to believe someone would advocate anything like this. I thought this was a settled issue when cowboys started carrying their 6 shot revolvers with the hammer resting on an empty chamber.

 

[Gunnerboy]

Is this for real..... are people that stupid???

 

[68wj]

Did Capstick ever have a Mosin?

 

[Big Bad Bob]

This doesnt sound like a bright move at all.

But what about hammer down on a lever gun? Same situation or different mechanics? I know a couple guys that chamber a round, then hammer down their lever guns. Some with and some without the modern safety.

 

[Salmoneye]

But what about hammer down on a lever gun? Same situation or different mechanics? I know a couple guys that chamber a round, then hammer down their lever guns. Some with and some without the modern safety.

No half-cock on those models?

 

[Big Bad Bob]

i am assuming so, mostly seen done on Marlins 1894s and 336s plus Winchester model 94's.

 

[MtnCreek]

But what about hammer down on a lever gun?

Some guns with exposed hammers have a piece that comes up (between firing pin & hammer) when the trigger is pulled. Lowering w/o trigger pulled, the hammer will not reach the firing pin. Just sitting here thinking about it, I know I have several old shotguns like this; can't think of any rifles off hand.

 

[H&Hhunter]

But what about hammer down on a lever gun?

Yes same situation drop the rifle and you'll get an ND. I've never seen a lever gun that has an interceptor bar like a modern single action pistol. I'm sure they exist but of Marlins or Winchesters have them.

 

[627PCFan]

I have a 1952 336 and tried to fire a primer in an empty case with the hammer resting and couldnt get it to fire. Not saying it cant be done but I couldnt engineer it to happen

 

[H&Hhunter]

I have a 1952 336 and tried to fire a primer in an empty case with the hammer resting and couldnt get it to fire.

Drop the rifle so the hammer hit's something solid. That'll do it. In any case I hope that you are not advocating that it is safe to carry a lever gun with the hammer down on a live round?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

HOWEVER he has done the world a great disservice in his description of how to "safely" handle a rifle. In one or more of his books he describes the method of chambering a round and holding the trigger back while gently closing the bolt on a live round claiming that since the firing pin spring is relaxed that it makes the rifle safe to carry as a possibly faulty safety latch is now out of the picture. And P.H.C.'s description and "safety" advice in this regard was dead
WRONG!!!!!!

So what was the publication in which this was printed? Page?

 

[Snag]

In one or more of his books he describes the method of chambering a round and holding the trigger back while gently closing the bolt on a live round......

Ok, I've never heard of this. Just so I'm clear, and I think I am, this guy says to pull the trigger and keep it held then chamber a round?

 

[H&Hhunter]

Open the bolt hold back the trigger, chamber the round and gently close the bolt while the trigger is being held back. AKA by some as Capstick carry, deadbolting, African Safe...

But in any case it's STUPID and DANGEROUS!

 

[H&Hhunter]

So what was the publication in which this was printed? Page?

DNS,

Capstick wrote about it in several of his books. I don't recall which ones or on what pages. You seem to have plenty of free time please feel free to look it up or read all of his books yourself and get back to us on the specific page paragraph and sentence.

In any case he picked it up I'm sure during his time in Africa as many South Africans I've hunted with use this technique. It seems to be a cultural thing over there left over I'm sure from using rifles with weak or faulty safety mechanisms in the old days.

Are you challenging the premise that this is an unsafe method of rifle carry or are you nit picking whether or not Capstick wrote about it? If it is the latter I really don't have the time or the patience for it!

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[taliv]

H&H, i agree with you that what he describes doesn't make a rifle safe for the reasons you explained.

Bigger picture, i think "safe" is a relative term and what is "safe enough" depends on a lot of environmental factors.

So... if you follow "the four rules" then in some situations carrying loaded, cocked and without a safety is "safe enough". In other situations, I wouldn't be comfortable with a round in the chamber regardless of other safety steps.

What seems indisputable, is that it's ridiculous to set people's expectation that a loaded gun that has the hammer down is "safe" and nothing bad could possibly happen.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Are you challenging the premise that this is an unsafe method of rifle carry or are you nit picking whether or not Capstick wrote about it? If it is the latter I really don't have the time or the patience for it!

Wow, why so defensive? I just wanted to be able to look up the actual description you stated as being so bad. From your specificity, it sounded like you had the material in front of you. You had the time to write a glaring review of ancient history and so I figured you had the time to actually provide a citation.

 

[redneck2]

I have a 1952 336 and tried to fire a primer in an empty case with the hammer resting and couldnt get it to fire. Not saying it cant be done but I couldn't engineer it to happen

I was under the impression that lever guns had floating firing pins. Not sure and could well be wrong.

Back to bolt guns......Guess I'm missing something. How do you fire the gun if the trigger is already back and the firing pin is resting against the primer??

 

[T Bran]

redneck2
You took the words right out of my fingers as I too would like to know how to recock the firing pin without ejecting the live round.
Guess we arent very bolt savy.
T

 

[MCgunner]

I was under the impression that lever guns had floating firing pins. Not sure and could well be wrong.

You are correct, sir. I carry my lever gun (a Rossi 92 pre safety) hammer down. It COULD drop on the hammer and break the safety notch on the hammer, I guess. I don't worry about it.

Dropping the firing pin on a bolt gun in the manor described is letting the firing pin rest on the primer. NOT a good situation, that. I've heard of a safety failing on a Savage M340, but I suspect someone messed with the trigger and messed up the safety adjustment or something, don't know for sure. Cheap bolt gun, anyway.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

IT can be done with some guns but I don't do it. I was taught that you never do it even on a lever action rifle.

 

[Telekinesis]

How do you fire the gun if the trigger is already back and the firing pin is resting against the primer??

On some guns like the Mosin, you can actually grab the back of the bolt and recock the striker/firing pin. But a more general approach (for any gun that cocks on unlocking and not on closure) is to grab the bolt handle and rotate it like you would if you were cycling the action, but instead of pulling back on the bolt, push down again and lock the bolt in its forward position and you will be ready to fire.

 

[rcmodel]

With any Mauser 1891, 93, 95, or 98, the 1903 Springfield, or later Model 70 Winchester, or most any other bolt-action rifle?

The back of the striker, or firing pin projects out the back of the bolt shroud.

Uncocked, with the safety off, Any minor impact to it will fire the round in the chamber.

The mystery to me is why a South African of all people would propose such a work-around to a unsafe safety in the first place.

They were using Mauser's in war, and for hunting from the get-go.
And there was no Mauser military or sporting rifle ever made back then with a "weak or faulty safety mechanism" in the old days.
If you put a Mauser wing safety on Safe, it stayed on Safe until you took it off safe to shoot it.

Lever guns like the Marlin or Winchester, DO NOT have floating firing pins.
If the hammer is down against the bolt & FP, and the lever is locked shut, it will also fire if the hammer receives a impact of any kind.

What they all do have however, is a very robust hammer safety notch that holds the hammer just off of the firing pin..

No, they are not drop-safe from a helicopter.
But yes, they have worked perfectly fine and safely for the last 150 years, if the safety notch on the hammer is properly used.

rc

 

[H&Hhunter]

I was under the impression that lever guns had floating firing pins. Not sure and could well be wrong.

Back to bolt guns......Guess I'm missing something. How do you fire the gun if the trigger is already back and the firing pin is resting against the primer??

redneck2
You took the words right out of my fingers as I too would like to know how to recock the firing pin without ejecting the live round.
Guess we arent very bolt savy.
T

redneck, T Bran,

When you get ready to fire you simply lift the bolt and close it again. You do not need to pull the bolt back and extract the round to cock the firing pin.