Ill-conceived safety rule?

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Lucky

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"Never point your firearm at anything you don't want to destroy."

I've seen this a few times, and the more I read it the less I believe it is a sound rule. Muzzles get pointed at lots of things that you don't want to destroy, as I see it.

Anyone have a better explanation of this rule, or it's origins? Where I am the teach "Point the muzzle in the safest available direction." and "Control muzzle direction at all times."
 
I think the rule as written properly explains the care that should be taken with a firearm. While we do end up pointing our muzzles at things we would prefer NOT to shoot, every single time that happens we need to either scold ourselves or know why we can violate it.

While we might point them at out TV or the wall after cleaning, that rule reminds us that the muzzles should NEVER be directed at a person, unless the social circumstances demand such an act.
 
It reinforces the potential consequences of an ND by recognizing that a round cannot be recalled once fired, it does not have internal guidance, and it will damage whatever is in it's path, whether it was an intended target or not.

More correctly put would be"...are not willing to destroy."
 
It's by far the most important of all the safety rules whether the wording is the best or not. If your muzzle is always pointed in a safe direction it is very hard for someone to get injured.
 
I think perhaps Lucky's point is that with, for example, a pistol in a horizontal shoulder holster carried through WalMart, the muzzle is constantly being pointed at lots of things one wouldn't want to destroy. Even in a belt holster, you wouldn't want to destroy your car seat or your new leather couch...

I think the rules imply an unstored/unholstered firearm; one that you are currently handling.

There are certain clauses that can be applied to each of the rules. For example; "All guns are loaded, except the one in your hands that you have just cleared and double-checked, the moment you put it down it must be assumed to be loaded again."
 
not true.

i dry fire at a wall behind which is a toolshed behind which is a grove of trees behind which is a concrete wall behind which is the neightbor's wood wall behind which is another tree behindwhich is a house wall behind which is a bookshelf.

there is an old target taped to that exact spot.

AND i follow the other two rules regarding "loaded" guns.

do i WANT to destroy any of those backstops? no. am i willing? yes, if an ND does occur.
 
I teach Hunter Education and the 10 Commandments of Shooting Safety are listed as follows:

1. Treat every firearm with the same respect due a loaded firearm.
2. Control the direction fo your firearm's muzzle. Carry your firearm safely, keeping the safety on until ready to shoot. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. Identify your target and what is beyond it. Know the identifying features of the game you hunt.
4. Be sure the barrel and action are clear of obstructions and that you have only ammunition of the proper size for the firearm you are carrying.
5. Unload firearms when not in use. Leave the actions open. Firearms should be carried empty in case to and from shooting areas.
6. Never point a firearm at anything you do not want to shoot. Avoid all horseplay with a firearm.
7. Never climb a fence or tree, or jump a ditch or log, with a loaded firearm. Never pull a firearm toward you by the muzzle.
8. Never shoot a bullet at a flat, hard surface or water. During target practice, be sure your back stop is adequate.
9. Store firearms and ammunition seperately beyond the reach of children and careless adults.
10. Avoid alcoholic beverages or other mood altering drugs before or while shooting.

I believe what they are trying to say in #6 is that cowboys and indians with actual firearms would be a no no. The above list is verbatim from the 11th edition Hunter Education Northeast Region Manual used by NYS DEC Hunter Education.

Berek

PS: Sorry for the length... I guess I tend to ramble. And did you know...
 
entropy said:
It reinforces the potential consequences of an ND by recognizing that a round cannot be recalled once fired, it does not have internal guidance, and it will damage whatever is in it's path, whether it was an intended target or not.

More correctly put would be"...are not willing to destroy."

That's how I'd put it.
 
We all know what it means.

It is difficult to say in only a few words, and to sum it up with the qualifiers that include self defense and other firearms use that might occur in the world of advanced gun use is gonna be long winded. It won't be something that the average newcomer would quickly implant into his thinking. Teach the newcomers the basics with memorable rules, and let him modify the thinking as he needs for his real life.
It's obvious that in self defense, even when shootings occur, the shooter did not "want" to destroy anything. Usually someone is forced to reluctantly destroy something.
 
People have a hard time remembering more than 3 items. They have a problem remembering anything of length. Its ok to wax eloquent on gun boards or in BS sessions with your buds, but if you want a student to remember rules of safety and make them a part of their psychy (?sp) it had better be 4 max and short and to the point.

Your cause is not helped by stating a rule then listing qualifications. Keep it short, sweet, pithy, and brutal and there is a chance the rules will be internalized and therefore used reflexively.

--All guns are always loaded, no exceptions. Well what about dismantling a Grock? Go ahead and dismantle it but act like you are dismantling a loaded gun.

--Never point a gun at something you are not willing to destroy. What about dry firing? Go ahead but assume it is loaded and that you will destroy what you aim at. Muzzle sweep? Go ahead and do it but remember you are always sweeping the publid with a loaded gun (see first rule).

I hold to four rules. Anything more is a stretch for the MTV and microwave generation so I make the rules short and brutal.

I have one over arching principal I hold to. Every bullet I fire is mine for the rest of my earthly life, no exception. It behooves me to make sure that bullet rests safely in a pile of dirt and not in someone's body.

Keep your mind on the object of safety and not quibble about the phraseology.
 
An excerpt of Col. Cooper discussing the Four Rules and the reasoning behind them:

Rule I: All guns are always loaded
There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it; e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.
All guns are always loaded - period! This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"

Rule II: Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
Conspicuously and continuously violated, especially with pistols, Rule II applies whether you are involved in range practice, daily carry, or examination. If the weapon is assembled and in someone's hands, it is capable of being discharged. A firearm holstered properly, lying on a table, or placed in a scabbard is of no danger to anyone. Only when handled is there a need for concern. This rule applies to fighting as well as to daily handling. If you are not willing to take a human life, do not cover a person with the muzzle. This rule also applies to your own person. Do not allow the muzzle to cover your extremities, e.g. using both hands to reholster the pistol. This practice is unsound, both procedurally and tactically. You may need a free hand for something important. Proper holster design should provide for one-handed holstering, so avoid holsters which collapse after withdrawing the pistol. (Note: It is dangerous to push the muzzle against the inside edge of the holster nearest the body to "open" it since this results in your pointing the pistol at your midsection.) Dry-practice in the home is a worthwhile habit and it will result in more deeply programmed reflexes.

Rule III: Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target
Rule III is violated most anytime the uneducated person handles a firearm. Whether on TV, in the theaters, or at the range, people seem fascinated with having their finger on the trigger. Never stand or walk around with your finger on the trigger. It is unprofessional, dangerous, and, perhaps most damaging to the psyche, it is klutzy looking. Never fire a shot unless the sights are superimposed on the target and you have made a conscious decision to fire. Firing an unaligned pistol in a fight gains nothing. If you believe that the defensive pistol is only an intimidation tool - not something to be used - carry blanks, or better yet, reevaluate having one around. If you are going to launch a projectile, it had best be directed purposely. Danger abounds if you allow your finger to dawdle inside the trigger guard. As soon as the sights leave the target, the trigger-finger leaves the trigger and straightens alongside the frame. Since the hand normally prefers to work as a unit - as in grasping - separating the function of the trigger-finger from the rest of the hand takes effort. The five-finger grasp is a deeply programmed reflex. Under sufficient stress, and with the finger already placed on the trigger, an unexpected movement, misstep or surprise could result in a negligent discharge. Speed cannot be gained from such a premature placement of the trigger-finger. Bringing the sights to bear on the target, whether from the holster or the Guard Position, takes more time than that required for moving the trigger finger an inch or so to the trigger.

Rule IV: Be sure of your target
Know what it is, what is in line with it, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything you have not positively identified. Be aware of your surroundings, whether on the range or in a fight. Do not assume anything. Know what you are doing.

Summary
Make these rules a part of your character. Never compromise them. Improper gunhandling results from ignorance and improper role modeling, such as handling your gun like your favorite actor does. Education can cure this. You can make a difference by following these gunhandling rules and insisting that those around you do the same. Set the example. Who knows what tragedies you, or someone you influence, may prevent?
 
Also keep in mind that this rule only applies when you're handling a firearm. It does not apply when no one is touching the firearm (though I always try to keep in pointed in a safe direction anyway, even when I lay the gun down).
 
If you follow the rules, you will find "dry firing" would not be allowed.
Absolutely untrue.

There are safe dry firing practices, and unsafe ones.

Too many people become complacent and chuck the Four Rules out the window simply because they need to get some dryfire practice in. Foolish! The purpose of dry firing is to engrain certain physical habits into your memory -- so deeply engrain them that your body will automatically behave that way under stress. You do not want to engrain poor safety habits. Dry firing without following the Four Rules is worse than not dry firing at all, because it accomplishes the exact opposite of its intended purpose.

"All guns are always loaded" means that you always treat your firearm with the respect due a loaded weapon. When you follow this rule, even when you have just checked to see that your gun is unloaded, you still treat the gun with the respect due a loaded weapon. All other safety rules follow from this one cardinal rule.

(Oh, there are people who believe that merely checking to see the gun is unloaded means you can then treat it like a toy -- that you can point it at your friends to pose for a picture, or at your training partners for disarming practice, or at a flimsy interior wall to check trigger function. A foolish, foolish idea that kills a certain number of misguided simpletons every single year...)

Rule Two, "never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy," simply states the logical consequence of Rule One. When you choose a direction for dry fire, you choose a direction in which you would be willing to fire a loaded weapon. You don't point it at your dog, at the big-screen TV you can't afford to replace, at a friend, or at an heirloom vase. You point it at something that, if shot, would result in only minor property damage.

One of the reasons people dry fire is to learn Rule Three, "keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target." This rule needs to be contained not just in your thinking brain, but in your body's physical response to holding the gun in your hand. It should take a conscious effort to put your finger on the trigger; you should never, ever, ever find your finger resting on the trigger or within the trigger guard when you didn't consciously put it there on purpose. Intelligent dry fire helps to build in that response.

Rule Four, "be sure of your target and what is beyond it," is particularly important when dry firing. Because you are following Rule One, you know that the gun in your hand is a deadly loaded weapon. So you are not going to shoot it at a flimsy interior wall which you know will not stop a bullet, or at your own reflection in the bathroom mirror with your baby's crib on the other side of the wall. You won't fire at the TV when your wife is fixing dinner on the other side of the TV. Instead, you'll set up a useful target with a safe backstop.

***

When I dry fire, I get all the ammunition out of the room and out of sight and I even go so far as to lock the door where the ammunition is kept so that it takes several deliberate steps to get the ammunition back together with the gun.

I check and double check that my gun is unloaded.

I turn the ringer off the phone and make sure the front door is locked & bolted. I don't want any interruptions.

I check and double check that my gun is unloaded.

Then I tape up my target on my brick fireplace. The brick would stop a bullet and I wouldn't mind a dent in it. If I didn't have a fireplace, I would use a basement wall, or the end of a jam-packed bookcase, or an old bulletproof vest. But I wouldn't point at a TV (doesn't necessarily stop a bullet, though it might) unless something more substantial were behind it.

I check and double check that my gun is unloaded.

Then I do my dry firing.

When I'm done dry firing I take the target down immediately, before I reload the gun.

When I reload the gun, I say aloud, "This gun is loaded. It will fire if I pull the trigger. This gun is loaded, this gun is loaded, this gun is loaded." I say this the entire time I am reloading the gun. I always say it aloud, repeatedly, so that my thick skull has no excuses.

Some people suggest locking the gun up after dry firing, because you've just trained yourself that the gun won't fire when the trigger is pulled. That's probably a good idea, but I dislike leaving my gun inaccessible. So instead I put the gun back on my hip, and leave the house. I thus stay out of the room where I was dry firing for at least an hour or two. The target goes down before I reload the gun, so I don't have the temptation to try "just one more dry fire" after I've reloaded, and I stay out of the area until my conditioning to fire there has been replaced by conscious thought.

pax
 
The four basic rules serve us well! The problem lies with people who try and distort their intent! Then there are those that well who have way too much testosterone to follow the four basic rules! Funny how that seems to get worse this time of year! :banghead:
 
Pax, do you dry fire inside your home?

If so, where do you point the muzzle? I can buy the idea that dry firing is ok if you are outside, or at the range, but in a house, I am not sure how you would able to know for sure that you are ok with destroying what the gun is pointed at, or what lies beyond the target. How do you know there isnt a gas or waterline running through the area you are dry firing at?
 
um

i think pax just said that she DFs at a brick fireplace.

one more addition - and i know some people will disagree with me on this. more power to you.


I never use snap caps. They are, imho, one of the most dangerous "safe" devices I know of. I personally know a guy who fired a gun with a snap-cap in it. Yah, you guessed it... that weren't no snap cap.

Luckily, he followed the rest of the same procedure turned routine that I do, and the bullet went through the target, through the phone book, and got lodged in the drywall.

All this from (IIRC) a 9mm!!

If my DFing gets me a busted firing pin, that's fine. I'd rather replace a firing pin than part of my drywall anyday, let alone bits and piece of ... (yikes) me.
 
An excerpt of Col. Cooper discussing the Four Rules and the reasoning behind them:

Rule I: All guns are always loaded
There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it; e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.
All guns are always loaded - period!

Sigh. Here I go again, disagreeing with The Colonel.

Safety rules should be simple, concise, easy to remember, and self explanatory. They should clearly tell you what to do, or not to do. A newcomer with no experience should be able to understand and follow the rule, even if they do not yet understand all of the reasons for the rules existence.

The version of Rule 1 that I use, "Always treat every gun as though it is loaded" clearly tells you:
what to do (treat every gun as though it is loaded)
when to do it (always)
and what to do it to (every gun).

It is direct (ie, "You! Do this!")
It is worded forcefully ("Always", "every")

There can be no partial compliance. If, at any point ever, you treat any gun in a way that you would not do with a loaded gun, you have broken this rule.


I personally don't think that Col. Coopers version, "All guns are always loaded," is a very good rule. It may be clear, concise, easy to remember, and forcefully worded. But it just a statement (and a false one at that), not a directive. It does not tell you what to do. It is not self explanatory. Even the full paragraph explanation doesn't really tell you what to do.
(other than not to believe that guns can be unloaded, you must have this (untrue) statement as your mindset, not to believe other people, and to check the gun yourself (to make sure it's loaded?))

Sorry for the rant, it's just a pet peeve of mine.


(more on subtle wording of the four rules here.
 
i think pax just said that she DFs at a brick fireplace.

Yea, I guess I missed that.

But if I should only dry fire at things that I would be willing to actually fire at (and therefore be willing to destroy), then I am not sure how prudent dry firing at a brick fireplace would be from across-the-room distances. While a fireplace would not likely be destroyed by live-fire, would it not be prone to generating ricochet?

personally don't think that Col. Coopers version, "All guns are always loaded," is a very good rule.

I agree that Cooper's choice of wording is very poor, and out right wrong. If a gun is always loaded, how does one disassemble it for cleaning? How does one ship it to a gunsmith?
 
Lone_Gunman said:
If you follow the rules, you will find "dry firing" would not be allowed.

Also, if you follow the rules you cannot disassemble a Glock, as you have to pull the trigger to disassemble.

No, you would just dry fire while pointing the weapon at something you were willing to shoot. I have friends that dry-fire at a bulletproof vest.

I also have my Glock pointed at a backstop I am not worried about shooting when I dissasemble it.
 
lol

okay if you realy must ask, i'll bite

take 10 big fat white pages phonebooks.

use 100mpg tape and tape them all together in one tall stack.

lay it on a table and dry fire away.

of course, if you're afraid you might miss...

youll have to do the expensive version.

buy lotsa wood and criss-cross lay them on top of each other until you've built yourself a wall of wood two feet thick with no possibility of any rounds slipping between cracks and not meeting another layer of wood below.
 
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