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Should rule two be revised or reworded?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Owen Sparks, Jun 4, 2011.

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  1. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    Let’s look objectively at the four basic rules of gun safety as codified by Jeff Cooper. They are brilliantly simple with built in redundancy yet I think a slight revision to the second rule might make a little more sense.

    RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED.

    RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.

    RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.

    RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHATS BEYOND IT.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Rule Two:

    NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.

    NEVER is a strong word and If taken literally you could never bring a firearm indoors, put it in your car or even put it in a holster because the muzzle would cover lots of things that you are not willing to destroy. The muzzle is always pointed somewhere and we must compromise by pointing it at something fairly valuable like the new carpet or the big screen TV to avoid pointing it at something irreplaceable like our knees and other people.

    Maybe this rule should be reworded any ideas?
     
  2. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    You are looking too deep into Rule #2 and trying to make too much out it....IMO, he means "Don't point you gun as anything you aren't willing to shoot."
     
  3. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    If we're going to reword rule 2, might as well reword rule 1 as well.

    All guns are always loaded until you verify that they are not. Rules are a general guideline, and a little bit of common sense has to go along with them.
     
  4. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    I don't believe Rule #1. In my life, I have seen lots of unloaded guns. Where can I get one of these magic guns that you never have to reload, because it always stays loaded even when you shoot it?....LOL.
     
  5. Six

    Six Member

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    What about Rule 3 and that guy who shoots with his feet?

    I tend to think that there's some room for common sense while still following the spirit of the rules.
     
  6. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    I am not willing to shoot a hole in my new holster yet I must point the muzzle at it at some point in order to use it.
     
  7. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    I prefer:

    ALWAYS TREAT GUNS AS IF THEY ARE LOADED.
     
  8. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    That's why I thought ahead and got a holster with an open end.
     
  9. onfloat

    onfloat Member

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    Here's the USMC's version

    Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.

    Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.

    Never point your weapon at anything you don’t intend to shoot.

    Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire.
     
  10. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    then how does one clean their gun? I'm not sticking anything down the barrel of a loaded gun, bore brush, patches, CLP, nothing.
    Treat them as if they are loaded until you verify they are not. That is what I teach my kids. Pick it up as if it is loaded, drop the magazine (if there is one), open the chamber, and look. Now that you have verified it is not loaded, the gun is safe.

    The next person who picks it up is expected to run through the same procedure.
     
  11. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    You must still point it at the side when drawing from an open ended holster.
     
  12. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    well there goes that idea.
     
  13. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    That's why I use a paddle holster. I just draw paddle and all and fire thru the hole. That way, I don't violate any of those rules.
     
  14. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    How’s this?

    ALWAYS TREAT GUNS AS IF THEY ARE LOADED. The ONLY exception is made for cleaning, maintenance or training is when I have personally checked that it is unloaded and it has not left my hand since.
     
  15. Kliegl

    Kliegl member

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    This is why a man should make his own rules and not simply parrot others.
     
  16. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    I'd revise Rule 1 first. All guns are NOT always loaded, and when teaching Rule 1 I have to do a lot of explaining of why an obviously false statement is an important safety rule. I understand that I am supposed to treat all (assembled, closed-action) firearms as loaded, and that dry-fire must be aimed at something that can absorb the most powerful round that can come out of that gun. Always.

    I get your point about Rule 2. I would usually think of it as "Never (with the gun in your hand and the action closed) point the muzzle at something that, if a bullet hit it, you'd say something other than, 'Oh, well.'" Not willing to destroy, but accepting of damage.

    But I think Rule 2 makes its point nicely, if with a little hyperbole.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2011
  17. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    They are fine like they are. :)
     
  18. youngda9

    youngda9 member

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    If rule #1 is true then why do I have to spend so much money on ammo ? :)
     
  19. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    They are fine, simple, and widespread.

    It is politicians and others that see small things that could be added that turn them into the arbitrary 10 rules that nobody knows, instead of the 4 everyone remembers.



    All guns should be treated like they are loaded. If you just manually verified the gun in your hand is unloaded then you can clean or disassemble it. If you set it down and go get a drink, maybe get a phone call before returning, you should once again manually inspect the gun to make sure it is unloaded.
    Most accidents happen with "unloaded" guns.
    The image of the gun in your mind that you absolutely remember unloading, something you have done many times in the exact same way, is a memory from the week before, the day before, earlier before you made sure it could feed but forgot, etc
    There is also cases where someone leaves a gun briefly and has a spouse or someone else load it, something they never expected.

    There is even a funny story on this forum of someone mistakenly using dragon's breath shells, and a bird bomb in home defense against home invaders because a spouse had loaded the gun with such rounds intending to try them out, but ended up not using them and going on a business trip. The wife then had a home invasion, had ammo that would not reliably force any threat to stop, but got lucky when they fled after being shot with the oddities.



    Any time a gun leaves your hand it should be presumed to be loaded again.
    Also it should be treated as loaded even when unloaded when around other people out of respect and that they do not know it is unloaded. Like in a gun store or at a gun show, muzzle sweeping is typical of the immature customers checking out the 'unloaded' guns, while there is many stories you can find where such a gun turned out to have actually been loaded by accident earlier.
    You may know it is unloaded having just checked it 5 seconds before, but treating it as an unloaded gun is still disrespectful and inconsiderate to all those people that didn't just check the chamber with you and don't know that you did.


    Rule number 2 is also pretty straight forward.
    You don't point the gun at things that are irreplaceable, or even sweep the barrel from one side of a person to another. You arch around people.
    In a life and death situation you may need to sweep from one side of a person to another to engage a threat, but in recreation convenience is no excuse for the added danger to someone's life when you could just arch the gun up in the sky or down at the ground around people and never let the barrel come close to pointing at another human being.
    Things are replaceable, feel free to point it at your expensive items if you are comfortable it won't go off, but such a risk with people is irresponsible.
     
  20. red-demon652

    red-demon652 Member

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    I got me a closed in holster so if my gun goes of it wont shoot my foot!!! Tehehe
     
  21. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    Good explaination Zoogster. I especially like the part where you said:

    Carelessly pointing an unloaded gun at someone is still a potentially deadly threat because they have no way to know if it is loaded or not.
     
  22. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    I take it to mean that Rule #2 becomes void if the gun is holstered, in a case, gun safe, etc.

    You guys are seriously worrying about this crap way too much.
     
  23. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    The rules should be worded so that they are not open to interpritation. How many times have you seen some fud carelessly handeling a firearm and when warned to watch the muzzle he says "It's not loaded" knowing full well that he did not check.
     
  24. kimbernut
    • Contributing Member

    kimbernut Member

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    Leave it alone

    You know what they are. You know the meaning of each. You can start dumbing down another regimin that has worked well for an awful long time in areas of your control. Thanks but no thanks. I'll stay with what works.
     
  25. Dreamcast270mhz

    Dreamcast270mhz Member

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    Heres my rules:

    All functional guns should be treated as loaded, unless:

    Action is open
    Magazine is open/detached

    Any loaded weapon should be carried one of two ways:

    Chambered with safety on
    Unchambered with safety off

    Any loaded weapon should be pointed, until ready to fire:

    Up
    Down
     
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