Illegal Immigration Isn't About Them, It's About Us

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Recently, I have had many discussions with people who are for some form of amnesty, and perhaps the most important argument for amnesty was by a friend of mine who has said, "We integrated more than our population in this country in the 1860s, to 1920s. Why can't we now?"

I realized why.

America cannot teach outsiders how to be Americans. Why? We don't know what American means anymore. An outsider cannot become us, when we don't know what us is.

People in California are so different from people from Arizona (for the most part, exceptions in both places of course), that an illegal immigrant freshly "American" at best can become one kind of American or the other.

After the Civil War, America was one land, and although the South had bitter feelings, it was the North and the West which received the immigrants.

Now, every state will pick up illegals if we pass this legislation. And depending on where they go, at best, they will just add to the ranks of Americans who are fundamentally different in their economic, social, and spiritual outlooks on the world.

The scarier (and more likely) scenario, is that the illegals become their own bloc, their own group within a balkanized America, fresh with their own culture, language, and agenda.

We cannot assimilate, unless we are one, with a common vision, and shared culture. America must look inside itself, and we have to figure out who we as a people are, before we try to make others American.

Until we know who us is, we can't make them us.

 

[1 old 0311]

It is obvious the illegals don't want to assimilate, they want to take over. We need to call this for what it is.........A invasion. In 1986 there was a 'amnisty' for 3,000,000. That just opened the doors for today's problems.

Kevin

 

[Bigjake]

Agreed, and since we can't assimilate them right now, we need to stop the influx.

Big Fence time, and round up the ones that are already here and send em' back.

 

[Standing Wolf]

The scarier (and more likely) scenario, is that the illegals become their own bloc, their own group within a balkanized America, fresh with their own culture, language, and agenda.

The leftist extremists have been working diligently at dividing and conquering quite some while.

 

[wingman]

We cannot assimilate, unless we are one, with a common vision, and shared culture. America must look inside itself, and we have to figure out who we as a people are, before we try to make others American.

Until we know who us is, we can't make them us.
/QUOTE]

Good point.

 

[308win]

The leftist extremists have been working diligently at dividing and conquering quite some while.

The Republicans especially under mal bicho grande and his cabal haven't been doing too badly at divisivness either.

 

[longeyes]

We cannot assimilate, unless we are one, with a common vision, and shared culture. America must look inside itself, and we have to figure out who we as a people are, before we try to make others American.

Until we know who us is, we can't make them us.

A lot of us get it; a lot of us never will. And the Powers That Be either don't want a unified vision, as grounded in the Founding Fathers or our seminal documents, or have an altogether different one in mind.

I personally find it hard to believe that we are all going to pull together and see this nation's future in the same way. Where do we go from there? Toward realizing that we are looking at ensuring political autonomy or working toward secession.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I don't think illegals are trying to "take over." as it were. I believe there are groups within the U.S. seeking to radicalize the illegals. But, Mexicans don't cross the border wearing El Che t-shirts, and chanting Solidarity that is middle to upper middle class white kids doing that non-sense.

Most people who come here from without come here bc they want a better life. They might not respect us while they are at it, but it's about advancement in their way of living.

Regardless of what they come here for, it is much easier to radicalize a people with their own language and culture with no connection to the U.S. besides money, than to radicalize Americans linked to America by the hip. I before have suggested America set very low immigration quotas from all countries, with the only exceptions being

1. People escaping genocide (not only is it humanitarian, but they have nothing to go back to, and their loyalty to the US who saved them will be absolute)

2. People escaping political oppression (with a very short list to include Chinese political disidents, maybe other groups as things went along)

3. Military personnel seeking asylum who arrive with technology helpful to U.S. Armed Forces.

These three groups have automatic loyalty, and they are generally not very high in number. We can accept those catagories, to accept much more than that is suicide. The socialist by another name folks on the Left coast and northeastern seaboard are fundamentally different from the South and West. We cannot make Americans when they have to choose between one mode of action or the other.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I personally find it hard to believe that we are all going to pull together and see this nation's future in the same way. Where do we go from there? Toward realizing that we are looking at ensuring political autonomy or working toward secession.
~longeyes

I believe that if we close off the border, the issue will resolve itself. The country will take on a somewhat Libertarianish flavor (bc of younger generations losing more of the sexual and cultural mores of their parents, this has levelled a little though), but otherwise America will be fairly Conservative.

Why? People on the coasts don't even have enough children to replace population, whereas the south and west are the only populations which do have increases in birth rates. The massive population increases in Cali, NY, Illinois, etc. experienced over the past 30 years are largely a phenomena of immigration, legal and otherwise.

In the South and West where there are booming populations now, it is from California getting some of the wealthier people moving to more tax friendly states, those that are young having kids, and illegals also having kids.

Unless we do close off the border those kids will probably end up fighting each other in a future war. I shudder in worry over what any descendants I might have might have to do to remain free.

 

[Baba Louie]

Some are here because they're born here. Most of them just want to have some semblance of freedom, go to work and pay their bills.
Some are here because they WANT to be here. Most of them just want to have some semblance of freedom, go to work and pay their bills.
Our Gov't has decreed that there will be quotas.
So be it.
I work with a 24 year old Hungarian lady who, last year, received her green card. She came to the US via Canada because she wasn't a stripper, er, dancer. US quotas on Hungarians include x number of "artists" but not computer geek elementary ed majors who speak 5 languages (we have too many of those doncha know). We NEED more "artists". She doesn't strip, she came in via a built-in back door.
She just wants some semblance of freedom, to go to work...
She does NOT, however, want to take over, take back, take control of any portion of this country with the exception of becoming a naturalized citizen as soon as she's able. She gets most annoyed at some who come here and refuse to learn the language or desire to become US citizens. Like some of her fellow countrywomen, who come here to make bucks dancing and maybe find a rich guy to marry. She's a hard core ANTI republican from a former communist nation, so we have fun tangling on some issues.
Anyone know the US/INS quotas for farm laborers or migrant workers or landscape maintenance crews? "Artists" who speak espanol?

 

[CAnnoneer]

In my work, I rub shoulders with people from all over the country. While there are some differences, I think it is overstated to say that the country is divided geographically. If there is division, it is

"a division in vision"

We have the following formations:
1) leftist-globalist-multiculturalist-statists
2) fascist-globalist-corporatist-statists
3) theocrats
4) the sleepers
5) the fed-up conservatives
6) a bunch of crazy marginalists

All these either have no vision whatsoever (the sleepers) or have very different visions as to where we should go as a country. The only groups that are in relatively strong agreement on most issues are #1 and 2. They both want a bigger, stronger, meaner government and a global "flow", albeit for very different reasons.

 

[lamazza]

mordechaianiliewicz
Did you miss all of the hundreds of pictures and videos of illegal mexicans carrying anti-american signs? "this is our land" "americans go back to europe" , etc etc

 

[model 649]

Interesting thought about becoming "some kind of American". I've never liked the divisional concept of the "fill-in-the-blank"-American. NOT politically correct, just idiotic. Here's a good little chunk of wisdom I keep around for these discussions., read and enjoy.
Josh

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907


Not bad, huh?

 

[saddenedcitizen]

Illegal immigration is about us ????

because 'we' can't/don't know how to teach them to be Americans ??? !!!

Sorry - wrong !

From what I've read/heard/seen most of the illegal immigrants don't want to be Americans !
They want much of the southwest to be Mexico North but, of course, with all the benefits ( social services ) still free ( to them, anyway ).
Sure, they come here for a 'better life'.
Almost ANYTHING in this country would be a better life than what most in Mexico have ( Yes, I've been there and not to visit the resorts either )
They also come here to send as much as they can back to Mexico and from what I understand it is not a paltry sum.
They appear to intend to 'reclaim' the southwest through sheer numbers ( and votes if they can get away with it ).

Try going through east L.A. sometime, oh, around May 5th
and just read the signs on cars, placards etc. ( the verbage of some of which would probably get me banned from this board - and no, the signs ARE NOT promoting becoming an
American ) along with the number of Mexican flags ( similar to the demonstrations of recent weeks )
BTW - I wouldn't try east L.A. after dusk unless you happen to have an APC and crew !!

We simply cannot, as a nation, afford x million of Mexico's poorest to come to this country and being a drain on
resources.

If what I have learned is true, and they do in fact send as much of their income back to Mexico as they can and do not pay some taxes ( Federal/state/property etc - sales tax is a bit harder to get around !) and then totally partake of ALL available social services ( school - bi-lingual to be sure, medical, aid to dependent children on and on ) then they are a net consumer rather than a net contributor.

A few weeks ago there was a 'day for demonstrations' where many retail establishments were to be 'boycotted' to show the buying power of the 'immigrants'. From the article I caught, sales were down less than 5% and shoplifting was down about 65% !!!!!! If true, 'splain that one !

This problem is not 'us'.

 

[c_yeager]

Your not going to have anything even resembling a logical statement untill you can provide a cohesive definition of "us", you say it like there is some magical quality that makes Americans a solid mass of ideals rather than a loose amalgamation.

The idea of assimilation is also ridiculous. America has *never* been about asimilation. Think about the "melting pot" for a second. If you have a pot full of one substance and add even a small amount of another does the smaller ingrediant turn into the larger one? No, what you end up with is a third material that is distinct from the other two. America has never been about assimilation, if *anything* you could call for homogination, but even that is a big reach.

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

i have to agree with saddenedcitizen

the mexicans i talk to are not really happy aboput being american they want to use the us for their own god and i have said htis befoere the time will come when we ( americans being of any race) are needed to defend our home land as it is i think i am going to join the national gaurd and voluenteer for the border gaurding someone has to defend this country and if it is jsut people in tinfoil hats like me then i think i need to make some more.

 

[ball3006]

Why they are coming here is not.....

the point. The point is that they are breaking the laws of the United States of America, thus they are ILLEGAL. Alot of folks are trying to rationalize the problem of the illegal aliens by coments such as, "they are coming here for a better life", "they need to support their familys", etc. Too bad, if they came to the USA the legal immigration way, they would be welcomed with open arms. They are just a bunch of alien criminals that should be rounded up and put in jail or deported.......chris3

 

[HankB]

. . . their own group within a balkanized America, fresh with their own culture, language, and agenda.

"Divide and conquer" is the ultimate goal of those who espouse the politically correct mantra of "DIVERSITY." :banghead:

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

They are just a bunch of alien criminals that should be rounded up and put in jail or deported.......chris3

why not both it sounds like a deal to me mexico puts them in jail for leaving with out paying their two dollars on the bridge like the rest of us when we leave mexico. i og down there all the tiem and if i tried to leave with out paying they would throw me into jail in a heart beat... lol sound like mexican jsutice to me

 

[longeyes]

I believe that if we close off the border, the issue will resolve itself. The country will take on a somewhat Libertarianish flavor (bc of younger generations losing more of the sexual and cultural mores of their parents, this has levelled a little though), but otherwise America will be fairly Conservative.

Why? People on the coasts don't even have enough children to replace population, whereas the south and west are the only populations which do have increases in birth rates. The massive population increases in Cali, NY, Illinois, etc. experienced over the past 30 years are largely a phenomena of immigration, legal and otherwise.

In the South and West where there are booming populations now, it is from California getting some of the wealthier people moving to more tax friendly states, those that are young having kids, and illegals also having kids.

Unless we do close off the border those kids will probably end up fighting each other in a future war. I shudder in worry over what any descendants I might have might have to do to remain free.

They are more ways to "propagate" than physical reproduction. Consider the propagation of ideas. I think the Left has insinuated itself dramatically into the idea-creating power centers of America: media, entertainment, education, government propaganda, corporate human resource departments. America, borders sealed, would be "Libertarian?" I find that hard to believe. Libertarianism appeals to strong-minded, rational individualists--and how many of those are really left? Someone is watching Oprah and American Idol.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

longeyes, I believe that politically bc as of right now, the sleepers who sit in the middle, or don't care and let themselves be blown about do not care what happens. If they did, they would vote for something other than American Idol. It isn't that they are against us, it is that they just don't care.

However, the social agenda moves of the left have started to calm down. Is a "Libertarian America" possible? Yes. But with alot of work. But, I'm pretty sure that the Socialists asked the same thing about their beliefs and got the same answer in the 1960s.

The "radical middle" doesn't really exist per se. It is a media illusion. Liberals and Conservatives exist, and from there you can generally classify both groups. And both of those groups make moves which determine how our country goes.

I believe that Liberty minded Conservatives will nullify the neo-cons over the next ten years, and if they keep sufficient numbers, will determine much of the countries agenda in the next 30 years. Unless illegal immigration allows the Liberal factions into the halls of power (just as it's designed to do).

 

[longeyes]

longeyes, I believe that politically bc as of right now, the sleepers who sit in the middle, or don't care and let themselves be blown about do not care what happens. If they did, they would vote for something other than American Idol. It isn't that they are against us, it is that they just don't care.

They care. They will vote for the pabulum, for anyone who keeps their nerve-endings pleasurably stimulated and their bodies safe from risk at home or abroad. They care about what they care about: their feelings and their sense organs. The rest is, man, too much hassle and not worth bothering about.

However, the social agenda moves of the left have started to calm down. Is a "Libertarian America" possible? Yes. But with alot of work. But, I'm pretty sure that the Socialists asked the same thing about their beliefs and got the same answer in the 1960s.

The social agenda moves of the Left have started to calm down? Would that this were so. You talk about the advent of legitimized illegal immigration as if it's a "might be." No, it's here, and if we all continue to subscribe to the corrupt government we have we will all be a-workin' on the plantation in one generation.

A conservative--but not necessarily Libertarian--America can exist, but it's maybe 50-75 million of us, at most, and will need to be separated out from The Rest of Them, by whatever means necessary and protected.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

The sleepers have been shown to sit out of stuff. Yes there are a few who weigh in and vote for bread and circuses, but not what you would think. Why did Bush even win? Because many liberals thought Kerry not far enough to the Left, and voted Green or not at all. Bush will lose this time for similar reasons amongst the right.

As for social agenda, there are many supporting a liberal agenda, but many supporting a Conservative agenda. I've read posts at DU, and other sites about Liberals complaining that they don't have the same influence they used to. Not saying that the bastions of Liberal thought are gone, I'm just saying the 1970s where Conservative thought was no where to be scene on a social scape is gone.

Overall, your 70 million # is about right. But I have ideas as to how we will protect ourselves.

No, but seriously, we need allies. In the 1st revolution, we had the French. For this, we will need an allie to receive our goods, provide support, and teeth. The way I feel though, we are very short on people that would like this faction within America, and I see our supporters as being short in #

 

[American By Blood]

America cannot teach outsiders how to be Americans. Why? We don't know what American means anymore. An outsider cannot become us, when we don't know what us is.

Try as I might, I simply cannot teach a tiger to be a lion.

 

[CAnnoneer]

It does not bode well that the only population increase or even adequate replacement is done through immigration, invasion, or by ethnic minorities related to the above. In addition, there are political and ideological changes that in the long run may prove even more damaging.

Just today I asked a latino secretary I have known for years at work what she thought about illegal immigration and what people thought in her community. She got upset about the implication that latinos are her community and went into a tirade about:

1) not all illegals are mexicans
2) her mother was disciminated against and only now she realizes it
3) salvadorians are worse than mexicans
4) gringo policy is the reason why so many mexicans came to work agri jobs in the 1950s when OC was a bunch of orchards
5) La Raza is an old thing and nothing to worry about
6) Her ancestors are not mexican but spanish and half of them were pink, so, there!
7) the only reason for "some" border security is because people do not realize Arizona is a vicious desert and die as a result

This is the same person that only two years ago told me she hated her latino name as a kid and when her parents decided to americanize her first name, she asked them to americanize her family name as well. The same person that refused to speak spanish in public so that she does not sound mexican.

Incidentally, an old Italian guy when asked about the same topic said one of the great things about America used to be the lack of strong social hatred and political thugs in the street. Not any more. In Italy, every time the gov tries to do something the leftists do not like, the unions and the leftists ship 2 million to Rome to protest and break windows on their dime. Mob rule.

How has the world changed...