Illegal info given at Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona, FL

[funny book flapjack]

Thought I should post this here. I believe in naming names when someone deserves it, so-- Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona, FL apparently has no problems treating their potential customers rudely, while basically telling them to just go commit a felony, because they are busy right now.

I'm pretty mad at these guys right now. We talk a lot here about misinformation spewed by gunshop employees. This one's a bigger deal to me, since:

1. The misinformation would have resulted in my mother-in-law & me commiting a felony.

2. He was extremely rude & arrogant about giving the misinformation to her, & told me to "quit wasting his time & go call the cops if I didn't like it."

Here's the email I sent to the store's contact address, explaining what happened:


Hello,

I just got off of the phone with one one of your salesmen (I didn't get his name). My mother-in-law was just in your store, & your salesman gave her information that, if we followed his advice, would result in her (& me) committing a federal felony.

When she put me on the phone to speak with him, he told me that I was an idiot, & that "he didn't have time to argue with someone who didn't know what they were talking about."

Now-- I don't expect all salesmen to know every firearm law in the country, but this is a pretty big one. Even if he didn't know the answer, he should say he didn't know the answer, instead of providing an incorrect & illegal one.

It is federal law that, if one resident of a state wants to gift or sell a handgun to a resident of a different state, that they must do the transaction through an FFL in the recipient's state of residency as an intermediate.

It is irrelevant that neither Florida (her state of residence) nor Georgia (my state of residence) have state registrations, or require licensing to purchase/own/possess a handgun. A federal law that is stricter than state requirements trumps those states' (any/all states') requirements. It doesn't matter if the two people are relatives, if it's a gift instead of a sale, or if they are currently physically in the same state as one another. If a person wants to sell or gift a handgun to another person, & those two people are residents of different states-- IT IS A FELONY TO DO SO WITHOUT GOING THROUGH AN FFL DEALER OF THE RECIPIENT'S STATE.


From the BATFE website:

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own state? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]


Is it a stupid law? Of course it is. But the fact remains-- it is a felony for me to gift or sell a handgun to my mother-in-law, unless that handgun transaction goes through an FFL dealer in her state of residence (Florida).

I don't have time to argue with your salesman any more than he has time to argue with me. I am at work right now as well. But I don't appreciate your salesman giving information to me & my mother-in-law that is a felony, & I certainly don't appreciate your salesman rudely telling me that I am an idiot when I informed him of his mistake. He ended by telling me to "call the cops on him if I don't like it."

Well-- he wasn't doing anything illegal by not doing the transfer, so calling the cops on him would accomplish nothing. But telling us that we needn't do the transfer with a Florida FFL, could have gotten both her & me felony convictions. The BATFE doesn't play games, & your staff need to familiarize themselves with the federal laws that apply to the firearms business.

I am an active member of The High Road, The Firing Line, M1911 Pistol Organazation, & many other websites with readerships of many thousands of people per day. I will be posting this on each of those sites, so I would imagine that by the weekend, somewhere around 50,000 people will have read about the rude, incorrect, & dangerous way that your sales help deals with potential customers.

 

[ants]

Wouldn't it seem High Road to arrange for Buck's to give their side of the story as well.
At least it would be courteous. We members can tell right from wrong, but we also deserve the whole story.

 

[fireman 9731]

Yep, I would like to see the reply as soon as you have one.

 

[funny book flapjack]

Absolutely. That's why I ended the email to them with the info that I would be posting it here as well as other places.

I would love to see a response from them as well. If it comes in the form of an email instead of a post here, then I will certainly post it up.

In one way, what he was doing was saying that she didn't need to spend that money on the transfer. That's nice to try to help her save money. But it was incorrect info. Dangerously incorrect info. And when I said that the BATFE clearly states that it is illegal, he quickly became... less than High Road.

 

[kanook]

it's not just buck's that has employee's that don't know the law. just be grateful that you do.

 

[sadp40]

when i lived in daytona 10 yrs ago

it was the same story, bad attitudes, no help unless you are a mall ninja

buying a 2000.00 piece of tactical hardware.

i bought a used model 10 from them put it on layaway checked it real

good timing spot on no endshake perfect. finish well typical police trade-in

when i went to pay it off about a month later out comes the blue box

looks just like any other blue box i open it to look thats its a model 10

i'm on my way to work so i don't rexamine it i got to go.


i get home full of pride, at that time i hadn't really been a gun guy

i had an sks i figured it would do anything i needed it to do,
put food on the table, keep baddies away, you know.


i open the box ever so slowly and reach in gingerly so gingerly
like a new poppa, AND WHAM the cylinder falls out

they screw that holds it is gone, and so is the trigger return
spring.....wait a tick its not even the same gun.

i call in the morning surely a mixup no problem.

of the two i spoke to neither man stopped screaing at me
about how stupid i am for the whole time on the phone.

don't go there.

 

[wyocarp]

Two comments:

1) I would imagine that most relatives don't transfer firearms through an FFL even though the powers that be would like everyone to. I don't know of anyone who has transfered a gun through an FFL to a realative.

It's not like the BATF is going to track you down and make you both felons unless you or your mother-in-law has already had problems with the law for giving he a gun.


2) I too wonder about Buck's response to this. The OP said he was an active member of THR and a member of a number of other forums, but this was only his 22nd post.

 

[jack404]

nameing is good

but be careful they aint someone sponsor on some web forum somewhere

it will get you banned if you upset a vendor

trust me i'be been banned 4 times becauzse vendors did not like what i had to say ( then one lied to cover thier backside)

as for gun shops always doing the legal thing.. dont bet on it.. my last trip to the USA was cancelled because a dealer screwed everything up then ducked for cover behind "friends"

told people another story despite me having thier emails

while there are some great stores out there , theres some lazy arsed wanna be's out there too

be careful folks

jack

 

[Big Daddy Grim]

Interesting either way I would not give that gun shop my buisness.

 

[JohnBT]

"I don't know of anyone who has transfered a gun through an FFL to a realative."

So? All it takes is getting caught once to ruin your day. Then you're a convicted felon.

John

 

[funny book flapjack]

Two comments:

1) I would imagine that most relatives don't transfer firearms through an FFL even though the powers that be would like everyone to. I don't know of anyone who has transfered a gun through an FFL to a realative.

It's not like the BATF is going to track you down and make you both felons unless you or your mother-in-law has already had problems with the law for giving he a gun.


2) I too wonder about Buck's response to this. The OP said he was an active member of THR and a member of a number of other forums, but this was only his 22nd post.

1. Well, I'm sure you're right that the BATFE wouldn't actively track me down just for giving her a pistol. But what if something happened? What if it was stolen, or worst case-- she had to use it in defense? I bought that gun in a store (here in Georgia), there is a paper trail in my name, & if she's gonna possess it away from me (can't loan a gun if they leave the state), then we want it to be legit. There is no believable way that I could say that I didn't know she isn't a resident of the same state that I am.

Again-- I agree it's a stupid law. But it is what it is.

2. You're right, I don't post much, so maybe "active member" is a bad description. Try telling my wife I ain't active on this website though!

I have been reading this site (& TFL) for about four years now (I didn't sign up for well over a year after I started reading here). I'm on here every day though. Every single day (unless maybe I'm on vacation). Sometimes for hours each day.

So-- 4 years, every day, 22 posts. Ya think that's 'cause: a.) I'm a blowhard type that tends to babble when I don't know an answer, or b.) someone who knows he's on a board full of people who know MUCH more than he does about firearms, & reads daily to learn as much as possible?

I've jumped in here & there when I feel I have an answer to a question, but for the most part, I spend my time soaking up knowledge.


I posted about this because I felt it was important. Yeah, I knew that he was wrong, & will go somewhere else to do the transfer (because of the way he treated us, not because he was mistaken). But she didn't know he was wrong (that's why she called me & put us on the phone), & someone else might not know he was wrong, which could lead to real trouble for someone.

Many people who don't read about gun laws on a daily basis will simply believe what a representative of the gun industry tells them. Gotta wonder how many people have commited felonies because of this guy.

And sadp40-- by coincidence, it's also a used model 10 that I have to transfer to her. Sorry ya got burned there. I've never been in the store. This was my first experience with Buck's.

 

[waterhouse]

I hate to say it, but if you walk into a gun store and ask for legal advice you are going to get exactly what you pay for.

 

[Tinman357]

wyocarp:::

I would think that someones post count has nothing to do with anything real. I've been a member here sine January of "06, Just a little longer than you to be exact.... I just don't post much unless I have something productive to say. Then again maybe I haven't learned much in 35 years of amature gun smithing and shooting. Maybe I just don't have much to say. That hasn't already been said. In some cases beaten to death.

So by your standards I would venture to guess that I'm not welcome here?

 

[Grey_Mana]

As a devil's advocate:
The federal government doesn't set state residency requirements; the states do. Most states have extremely lax residency requirements.

The federal government (circuit court) has ruled that a park bench can be a primary residence, for the purpose of letting homeless people register to vote. For that matter, being imaginary isn't a bar to being a state resident and voting. Here you are, a real person worrying about whether or not you can have dual state residency.

If you are both in the same state at the same time when the gun is transferred, ask yourself if you could construe yourselves to be residences of that same state, even if only for a few hours. For example - did you spend the night at your Mom's, actually resting and sleeping in a residence in that state? Did you pay any sales tax to the state while you were there? Check your state's web site, search under 'residency requirements'. I think you'll be surprised: you don't need to register, or renounce your previous residency, or pay taxes (assuming you aren't working over this period).

I'm not saying break the law. I'm saying the law doesn't mean more than it says.

 

[wyocarp]

wyocarp:::

I would think that someones post count has nothing to do with anything real. I've been a member here sine January of "06, Just a little longer than you to be exact.... I just don't post much unless I have something productive to say. Then again maybe I haven't learned much in 35 years of amature gun smithing and shooting. Maybe I just don't have much to say. That hasn't already been said. In some cases beaten to death.

So by your standards I would venture to guess that I'm not welcome here?

Tinman357, I said nothing about anyone being welcome here or not. Besides, I have absolutely nothing to say about that. I was merely making an observation based on the OP's comment that he was active member here as well as numerous other sites.

The OP was wanting everyone on here to think badly about a third party of which we know nothing about and haven't heard their side of the events and he was claiming that he was active here like everyone should know who he is and what he is about and therefore trust his word. It might have happened exactly the way the OP has described, we don't know.

It might not be totally accurate, but I would assume that the regulars on here as well as the mods have formed an opinion about me because I do make comments on a regular basis. Some have made comments about me in the past that prove this is true and so I have a reputation of sorts. My comment was that the OP had only had 21 previous interactions with the forum members in numerous years but was claiming to be active.

Yeah, I was calling him out a little. I'm not saying he was wrong.

Many Americans watched a show this past weekend that showed people selling guns to complete strangers and actually collecting extra money for not asking to see some proof of residency and I haven't heard of the ATF knocking on doors to find these people and make felons of them.

His worst case scenario was if the gun had to be used in self defense by his mother-in-law. So what. I've never heard of a legitimate SD case where an issue was made of how the gun was obtained.

Bottom line, if that FFL won't receive/transfer the gun, find one that will if that is what you need to have happen.

 

[Deanimator]

It's not like the BATF is going to track you down and make you both felons unless you or your mother-in-law has already had problems with the law for giving he a gun.

Capriciousness, maliciousness and serial mendacity are the hallmarks of the BATFE. YOU take those kinds of chances with them. Smart people don't.

 

[Deanimator]

Many Americans watched a show this past weekend that showed people selling guns to complete strangers and actually collecting extra money for not asking to see some proof of residency and I haven't heard of the ATF knocking on doors to find these people and make felons of them.

And typically they give you a heads-up before they take any sort of enforcement action?

 

[funny book flapjack]

The OP was wanting everyone on here to think badly about a third party of which we know nothing about and haven't heard their side of the events and he was claiming that he was active here like everyone should know who he is and what he is about and therefore trust his word. It might have happened exactly the way the OP has described, we don't know.

It might not be totally accurate, but I would assume that the regulars on here as well as the mods have formed an opinion about me because I do make comments on a regular basis. Some have made comments about me in the past that prove this is true and so I have a reputation of sorts. My comment was that the OP had only had 21 previous interactions with the forum members in numerous years but was claiming to be active.

Yeah, I was calling him out a little. I'm not saying he was wrong.

I get what you're saying. You don't know me, & don't just believe something I say automatically. Don't blame ya a bit for that.

I wasn't claiming myself "active member" in the attempt to get anyone here to trust me more, but because I do actively read these sites daily, know how many people view them, & was simply letting Buck's know that I was unhappy with their service/staff, so I would speak about it in places that had many readers/potential customers, since they (Buck's-- or at least their salesman) were uninterested in speaking to me about it.

That's all I'm doing here-- informing others what happened with the store's employee, in hopes of getting the store to correct their misinformation & customer service in the best way I can think of. Having a conversation with them didn't work.

He made it very clear that he was ignoring the info I providing, & that he would go on informing people that it was not a felony to act on his advice. I think that if I can get him (or more importantly-- his boss) to read what is being said about their misconception, that it would carry more weight than the phone conversation that I had with him.

I am bent with them, not so much because the salesman was mistaken about the law (although I still believe it to be a pretty big mistake on the part of someone in the business of gun transfers), but because of the way that he spoke to my mother-in-law & myself when I explained that he was mistaken, that the mistake could be legally harmful, & that the correct information was available through the BATFE. But whatever, I'll get over the way he spoke to us, & just shop elsewhere.

His worst case scenario was if the gun had to be used in self defense by his mother-in-law. So what. I've never heard of a legitimate SD case where an issue was made of how the gun was obtained.

I'm far more concerned with just getting him to realize that what he is telling people is dangerous. What if it was stolen from her in Florida, then used in a violent crime, then traced back to me? How do we explain the gun having been in her possession without going through an FFL?

You seem very casual about obeying this particular law. As I said earlier-- I agree it's a stupid law, but like other gun laws that I think are also stupid & easily avoidable, I still choose to observe them. I may not have a very "active" post count, but I'm pretty sure that's one of the prime directives of this site, no? ;-) As is attempting to educate those that are mistaken about firearm laws (especially when those mistakes can have serious legal ramifications).

Bottom line, if that FFL won't receive/transfer the gun, find one that will if that is what you need to have happen.

He was actually willing to do the transfer, he just said that I was an idiot for doing it. I'd rather pay a store that's a bit more polite, thanks.

 

[Dan Crocker]

Strangely enough, my dad (a FL resident) wants to give my sister (a CA resident) his Makarov. I went to the CA DOJ website to get some information, and lo and behold, she can accept the gun and mail in a registration form for it, again from the CA DOJ website, they run a check that way, and all's (supposedly) well. Only works as a gift from a family member, but interesting.
Now, the Russian Mak that Dad has isn't on the CA DOJ approved list, so...

 

[funny book flapjack]

Dan-- that may be cool with the CA DOJ, but I think the feds will take issue. Unless maybe it's because Maks are old? Or maybe there is a way to do this I'm unaware of? I thought mailing a non- C & R handgun (or even a C & R handgun unless both sender & receiver have C & R licenses) from one individual to another across state lines is a no go, even as a gift between family. Anyone else know what's up that would allow Dan's situation, compared to mine? Regardless-- the transfer must be registered. A simple hand off in person, or mailed packeage without notification of transfer across state lines would be illegal.

Grey Mana--

Naaaaahhh-- that's getting into iffy territory that I would rather not travel in, should the ATF come knocking for any reason. My wife & mother-in-law have already gone round & round with me on that idea. My answer was-- fine if she wants to do that, but not if she's getting the gun from me.

The park bench thing may work for voter registration, but I'd be very curious as to whether it would work in a gun store when attempting to buy a gun. If that worked, she could basically drive from state to state, park her truck & camper occassionally, & buy a handgun in all of those states. I'm betting that the ATF would frown upon such actions, especially if the seller knew that is what the buyer was doing.

That has been my litmus test on this-- while here in Georgia, she had none of the paperwork that a gun store would accept as qualifying her for residency to buy a handgun in Georgia, & I of course knew that. There is no way that I could make the case to the ATF that I wasn't aware of her residence status, therefore the needed FFL transfer.

ATF does allow for dual residence purchases in either state the resident is currently residing in if "a person maintains a home in 2 states & resides in both states for certain portions of the year"

She's a Florida resident. Has been for 25 years or so. And she does occasionally come through & stay here with us in Georgia for parts of the year.

Problem is-- she also resides in Maine part of the year. She held a part time job there, had an apartment, will pay Maine (& Florida) state taxes this year. When she's in Georgia-- she just parks her truck & travel trailer at our house for a while, then takes off again.

I've seen nothing specifically prohibiting claiming residency in more than 2 states for handgun purchases, but I've seen nothing allowing it either. They do specifically state the number 2, so I will use that as the limit, unless someone can show me that more than 2 is allowed.

So-- sticking with the 2 state residency bit-- they would almost certainly look at the 2 as being Florida & Maine, not Georgia. Or-- maybe they wouldn't. But as Deanimator stated-- the BATFE has been known to interpret things in a way to get a conviction before, so I will be erring on the side of caution, since this gun was bought by me in a Georgia gun store.

This is an absolutely ridiculous law-- it is illegal for me to just gift my own family member one of my guns, without an FFL intermediary. Absolutely ridiculous law. But it is what it is.

Back to the OT-- recognition from Buck's Gun Rack that their salesman was waaaay out of line would be nice, but I don't really care about that so much. Again-- I'm far more interested in using this thread as a way to get them to understand that they are giving potentially harmful info to their customers. He simply would not take my word for it.

 

[nwilliams]

Wow, people actually take what gun store salesman say as accurate!

Like any salesman you can't expect them to always know what they are talking about and you can't argue with them because no matter what the truth is they are always right. This applies to any salesman not just employees at gun shops.

The fact is if a gun shop employee does something illegal then that shop is will pay the consequences and more than likely that employee will pay with his or her job.

However if you do something illegal because you were told by a gun shop employee that it was ok to do so then you are responsible for your own actions. This is why it's so important to do your own research and find out from reliable sources what the facts are. Gun shop employees are not reliable sources of correct information, many of them aren't even very knowledgeable on guns.

Remember also that it's not uncommon for gun shop salesman to treat their customers like children who don't know anything. In the eyes of most gun shop salesman you are always a noob when it comes to guns and they are the experts

 

[Dan Crocker]

Dan-- that may be cool with the CA DOJ, but I think the feds will take issue... I thought mailing a non- C & R handgun (or even a C & R handgun unless both sender & receiver have C & R licenses) from one individual to another across state lines is a no go, even as a gift between family. Anyone else know what's up that would allow Dan's situation, compared to mine? Regardless-- the transfer must be registered. A simple hand off in person, or mailed packeage without notification of transfer across state lines would be illegal.

It can't be mailed to her. I should have clarified that. But once she has it, or even before, all she does is mail in this registration form. Knowing what whiners make up CA, I can't imagine that they'd do anything gun related without the blessing of the Feds.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Strangely enough, my dad (a FL resident) wants to give my sister (a CA resident) his Makarov. I went to the CA DOJ website to get some information, and lo and behold, she can accept the gun and mail in a registration form for it, again from the CA DOJ website, they run a check that way, and all's (supposedly) well. Only works as a gift from a family member, but interesting.
Now, the Russian Mak that Dad has isn't on the CA DOJ approved list, so...

1. That's two Federal felonies right there. Maybe three if they toss in unlawful shipping. 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5) would be violated and possibly something associated with 18 USC 922 (e).

2. The voluntary registration form you are talking about is for new residents of California who move into California bringing guns they legally obtained in their previous state of residence.

3. The immediate family member transfer exception in California is only for California residents (all parties involved are California residents).

The only way to avoid violating 18 USC 922(a)(3) and (a)(5) is to transfer the gun through a CA FFL.

 

[Tinman357]

wyocarp.. I was just ribbing you a little. No offense meant. that's what the meant....

 

[Art Eatman]

Hokay. If the OP gets a response from Buck's, he can start an update thread.