Illegal to own an AR pistol and rifle?
- Thread starter jford1
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atblis
Member
Uh nope
As long as you don't switch stuff around.
You could own a complete rifle, and an SB upper. Just never ever put them together.
As long as you don't switch stuff around.
You could own a complete rifle, and an SB upper. Just never ever put them together.
But...
I thought Thompson Center got in trouble for providing long barrel, short barrel, full stock, and pistol grip in a kit because IF assembled incorrectly one could create a SBR. I have heard that if you have an AR rifle and a short upper that you can still be charged as being in possession of a SBR. My question is if both uppers have a legal receiver then is there still any legal grey area that the ATF can use to say that you intended to assemble them illegally?
I thought Thompson Center got in trouble for providing long barrel, short barrel, full stock, and pistol grip in a kit because IF assembled incorrectly one could create a SBR. I have heard that if you have an AR rifle and a short upper that you can still be charged as being in possession of a SBR. My question is if both uppers have a legal receiver then is there still any legal grey area that the ATF can use to say that you intended to assemble them illegally?
atblis
Member
Hmmm
I'd spend the ~80 bucks or whatever just to have a bare pistol lower sitting around.
It's not technically illegal, but that doesn't mean you won't get in trouble for it.
What's the phrase the ATF uses regarding that? Constructive possession?
Well. They can interpret it that way and probably would. You'll probably end up going to court (if anything ever happened). That doesn't mean you'd be found guilty, but the hassle and possibility...
I think the TC case addresses that. Simply having an upper and lower unassembled an SBR does not make. The ATF keeps trying to say that parts constitute a weapon... the courts don't always agree. I could see where the upper could get you into potentially more trouble due to it's assembledness. Here's something else to consider. You have a lower. You have an Upper with a short barrel, but you are going to install a permanent extension on it to comply with length requirements (it's on order or whatever). Do you have an SBR (lower and upper are not assembled)?
I think TC won their court case.
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html
I think the problem that we run into is intent. Intent is BS. They use it when it suits them, and ignore when it suits them.
You'll also find that most laws are meaningless crap written for the sake of being abused. What does "readily assembled" mean anyways?
I'd spend the ~80 bucks or whatever just to have a bare pistol lower sitting around.
It's not technically illegal, but that doesn't mean you won't get in trouble for it.
What's the phrase the ATF uses regarding that? Constructive possession?
Well. They can interpret it that way and probably would. You'll probably end up going to court (if anything ever happened). That doesn't mean you'd be found guilty, but the hassle and possibility...
I think the TC case addresses that. Simply having an upper and lower unassembled an SBR does not make. The ATF keeps trying to say that parts constitute a weapon... the courts don't always agree. I could see where the upper could get you into potentially more trouble due to it's assembledness. Here's something else to consider. You have a lower. You have an Upper with a short barrel, but you are going to install a permanent extension on it to comply with length requirements (it's on order or whatever). Do you have an SBR (lower and upper are not assembled)?
I think TC won their court case.
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html
I think the problem that we run into is intent. Intent is BS. They use it when it suits them, and ignore when it suits them.
You'll also find that most laws are meaningless crap written for the sake of being abused. What does "readily assembled" mean anyways?
richardschennberg
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2005
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- 199
I don't know all of the rules(especially state laws), but here's a couple ideas:
A. If both rifle and pistol have the same break-down pins and could be subject to an illegal parts swap, then modify the rifle as follows: get oversize match-grade take down pins for the rifle and modify only the rifle upper and lower to use the oversize pins. That would prevent assembling the rifle lower with the pistol upper and vice-versa.
B. Get the pistol and rifle both with exactly a 16" barrel. Again, check the regulations and laws yourself, but I think a 16" barrel is legal for either a handgun or rifle. If 16" is too long for your handgun whether legal or not, then go with plan A.
...
Based on the next post (only 11 minutes later!) and in memory of "Roseanne Adanna Danna": Never mind!
Richard
Schennberg.com
A. If both rifle and pistol have the same break-down pins and could be subject to an illegal parts swap, then modify the rifle as follows: get oversize match-grade take down pins for the rifle and modify only the rifle upper and lower to use the oversize pins. That would prevent assembling the rifle lower with the pistol upper and vice-versa.
B. Get the pistol and rifle both with exactly a 16" barrel. Again, check the regulations and laws yourself, but I think a 16" barrel is legal for either a handgun or rifle. If 16" is too long for your handgun whether legal or not, then go with plan A.
...
Based on the next post (only 11 minutes later!) and in memory of "Roseanne Adanna Danna": Never mind!
Richard
Schennberg.com
JesseL
Member
jford1 said:
The Supreme Court ended up ruling in favor of Thompson Center. Based on the nature of the ruling I would say it's perfectly OK to own an AR pistol and rifle.
MisterPX
Member
You've got 2 complete firearms, so you're OK. If you sold off the pistol lower, then you'd have issues. If you sold off the rifle lower, you'd be OK, because you can complete a rifle on that rec.
spankaveli
Member
why not register one of the lowers as an sbr and then you can have even more fun 
Keep in mind, that if you have a rifle receiver, the barrel length of it can never go below 16" and the overall length can never go below 26" or it would have to be registered, even if you remove the stock.
With a pistol receiver it's a whole different ball-game though.
With a pistol receiver it's a whole different ball-game though.
Monkeybear
Member
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2006
- Messages
- 1,178
1 SB Upper and 1 complete rifle = not good
1 SB upper and registered lower and 1 complete rifle = just fine.
1 SB upper and registered lower and 1 complete rifle = just fine.
wacki
Member
What is a SB upper? Or SBR? heh, all these laws make me very nervous about buying an AR-15.
wacki
Member
What is the difference between a SBR and a AR pistol? just the stock?
Quite honestly, I would ask the BATFE and not the experts here on a board.
It is not illegal to have a AR-15 rifle and a pistol and a SB upper and another lower receiver (non-registered as an SBR) etc.. in your home at the same time.
Uppers are not considered the gun, the lowers are the firearms. Just because you have a SB upper in your home doesn't make it illegal if you just happen to have a lower in the same house. It's only illegal when you join the two without going through the tax process.
If you are unsure, then just register one of your lowers as an SBR. That way you can put any under 16" upper on it (or build your own).
But, the main question is if it's illegal to have both an AR-15 pistol and an AR-15 standard length rifle in the same house, the answer is no, it is not illegal (by the feds, you need to find out your own state laws).
It is not illegal to have a AR-15 rifle and a pistol and a SB upper and another lower receiver (non-registered as an SBR) etc.. in your home at the same time.
Uppers are not considered the gun, the lowers are the firearms. Just because you have a SB upper in your home doesn't make it illegal if you just happen to have a lower in the same house. It's only illegal when you join the two without going through the tax process.
If you are unsure, then just register one of your lowers as an SBR. That way you can put any under 16" upper on it (or build your own).
But, the main question is if it's illegal to have both an AR-15 pistol and an AR-15 standard length rifle in the same house, the answer is no, it is not illegal (by the feds, you need to find out your own state laws).
atblis
Member
The Problem is
We are stuck dealing with a Federal Enitity that has the ability to interpret laws on a whim.
What is actually illegal is what a court convicts you of. Just because the ATF says something is illegal, doesn't make it so. Anybody who has ever dealt with them knows how contrary they can be.
This really sucks because testing whether something is legal or illegal is just not worth doing, so we are left speculating and hiding in fear from the ATF.
We are stuck dealing with a Federal Enitity that has the ability to interpret laws on a whim.
What is actually illegal is what a court convicts you of. Just because the ATF says something is illegal, doesn't make it so. Anybody who has ever dealt with them knows how contrary they can be.
This really sucks because testing whether something is legal or illegal is just not worth doing, so we are left speculating and hiding in fear from the ATF.
Will Learn
Member
- Joined
- May 7, 2006
- Messages
- 481
If you had a AR pistol (w/ it's lower rec.) and a AR rifle( W/ lower) couldn't you just switch the pistol upper to the rifle lower or would that be considered an unregistered SBR?
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