greenjeans
Member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2007
- Messages
- 87
This place is beginning to sound like GT.
the retailers and ammo maker are making big money
Do you consider a seller verbally lying about MSRP to be fraudulent?I don't believe that anyone here who is a fan of free markets said anything about fraud being OK - if I'm wrong, please point out those threads/posts.
That's what I said - you'll not find an argument there.Scalping is not the same as fraud - it is charging more than a printed price and a buyer willingly paying it - no different than when you walk inside that stadium and pay $9.00 for a beer that sells in the 7-11 for 1.69. Fraud is lying, charging what the market will bear is free enterprise.
If a buyer is dumb, or desperate, enough to pay what they know to be a drastic markup on products then they have deemed the price to be reasonable and thus no price gouging has taken place.
Do you consider a seller verbally lying about MSRP to be fraudulent?
The driving philosophy of dealers at gun shows is to troll for the uninformed and unwary buyer and sell at an obscene markup on that which can be had for less elsewhere.
In a nutshell, it's called "greed.
Yes I do - that is not free markets, that is fraud
But I would like to see a little fair play in internet gun board economics class 101 - that being that there is no difference between someone lying about his product's worth vs. my lying about my product's (currency's) worth.
I could stand the gun board denizens on my side - the entire department of the treasury / secret service is on the seller's side for cryin' out loud - he sure doesn't need moral support from folks explaining that the buyer is responsible for everything.
We should probably take it back a step and redefine "lying about worth". I'm not talking about simply overstating a market value but rather the specific case of misrepresenting a manufacturer's printed MSRP.There is nothing in the Illinois Criminal Code that addresses a vendor lying about what a product is worth. Well there is theft by deception but it most likely wouldn't apply to a gunshow sale. There is however a federal law against you making your own currency and passing it off as US currency.
In the 21st century when almost every American and most folks around the world have access to the internet I would love to know where all this "insider" information is.It's a bit harsh to label a buyer as "dumb" when, in fact, they just aren't privy to the information that the "insiders" are privy to.
the liberals are winning the retailers and ammo maker are making big money.
Um. Yes you do. If you are going to make a statement of "fact" then you also need to be able to provide citation for where you information comes from. Opinion is just that, and everyone is welcome to their own, and I for one welcome differing opinions. But fact must be supported by an outside source.I dont have a need to prove anything....I was just stating what I see
I do not see that. If a legitimate scam is uncovered either through a sale or an investigation I believe that everyone here would want to see that scammer prosecuted. Yesterday I stated that I did not have any dealer friends, I was wrong. I have a friend that works in an antique firearms store. He makes many, many sales at gun shows. He does all of his research in advance to ensure what he is telling the customer is correct. I do not know anyone else that has his knowledge of pre-1960's military firearms. He knows what he has and he knows what they are worth.There's an undercurrent in these threads that it's anti-american to suggest that "something be done" about gun show scammers. But no one suggests that the burden of research and due diligence should fall upon the seller in the case of counterfeit currency or hot checks - legislation to protect sellers is OK but legislation to protect buyers is socialism.
If that be the case and a seller is trying to take a buyer for everything he is worth by trying to pass off the Colt knock-off as a real Colt then by all means the seller should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And you are correct lawyers are not cheap, but I speak from personal experience when I say they are worth every penny.I'm talking about genuine deceptive trade practices
Who said that this was in any way, shape, or form ok?Why is it OK to sell counterfeit merchandise
To my mind yes. If I see a .45 Luger sitting on a sellers table and I know what he has but he does not and I get said Luger for $500 am I not just as bad as a seller trying to pass off a copy as the real thing. (I choose the .45 Luger because I know of only 2 in the world) If a seller does not know what he has and I take him for everything he's got is that not just as deceptive?Is the burden of due diligence applicable to both buyer and seller
I do not see that. If a legitimate scam is uncovered either through a sale or an investigation I believe that everyone here would want to see that scammer prosecuted.
I can only speak for me, but there is a special place in hell for swindlers, card cheats, and cattle thieves.If those pointing out the facts of a free market economy in fact don't condone deceptive trade practices than I sit corrected and feel all warm and fuzzy.
If those pointing out the facts of a free market economy in fact don't condone deceptive trade practices than I sit corrected and feel all warm and fuzzy.
Why is it OK to sell counterfeit merchandise but reprehensible to pay for it with counterfeit currency - or is it not really OK to sell counterfeit merchandise? Is the burden of due diligence applicable to both buyer and seller or buyer only?
But I would like to see a little fair play in internet gun board economics class 101 that being that there is no difference between someone lying about his product's worth vs. my lying about my product's (currency's) worth.
It could be. I just don't know enough about MSRPs to know if it is fraud to misrepresent them. I'm quite sure, however, that the manufacturer would be quite displeased with such a misrepresentation. I do , however, have littel sympathy for a buyer so eager to part with his money that they do do not do any basic research on what they are buying. And ultimately if they agree to the final price (MSRP or not), it would be hard to claim fraud (again assuming the item sold is what the it waas purported to be). I don't think the seller has any legal responsibility to provide me with accurate price reference points for me to make a decision. That is the buyers responsibility.The dealer says "MSRP is 1,399.00 and I'm getting 1,000.00" when the published MSRP is actually 599.00 and we cross over into fraud, right?
It is in perhaps poor taste but I was importing an anecdote from a different venue.With due respect Hawk, the whole "fraudulent tactics" part of this thread was introduced by you as a strawman in post #77.
Buyers can easily access price and other information these days on just about any product.
If they chose not to do so, that is not the seller's fault.