im an anti w/ questions

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Oh, one other thing...

A simple .38 is enough to transform a potential victim into someone who has the ability to say "No, please go away, and bother someone else," and have it stick.

If that fellow in Texas who go dragged behind the pickup by those rednecks, or that gay guy who got crucified on the fence by those other rednecks had been armed, they'd probably still be with us.

In addition, when one calls 911, more than likely they're requesting that someone with a gun show up, generally as rapidly as possible. Many of us here realize that 911 doesn't work all that fast... In addition, many of us are _better trained_ than most police (most cops just aren't into guns, and can be downright hazardous). We actually _like_ what we're doing when we go to the range. So we practice more.
 
Good morning James and welcome to The High Road. Your posting leads many of us to believe that you have an open mind. We are pleased to provide you with facts, not the fiction that comes from the anti-gun sources.

First, no one likes war. But Freedom isn't free. A local Marine just came back from Iraq. He wasn't sure when he left if the "trip was worthwhile". But after seeing how that the average citizen had been so poorly treated while the rulers had so much wealth he said it was more than worthwhile. The one thing that stood out in his mind was a young boy drinking out of mud puddle, his only source of water. Not too far away was a palace that was made of marble decorated with gold and had fountains in front.

Target shooting, a.k.a. shooting sports, is something I wish you would try. Find a local NRA Instructor and learn the basic of shooting, which always starts and ends with safe handling lectures.

After many years of instructing I am still pleased to see the big smile on the faces of first time shooters. An example, one student in my last class told me after graduation that she wasn't pro-gun when she started and had a bad image of the NRA. That all changed during the class and she is now becoming a darn good competitive shooter.

By the way, half of the students I see are female.

Yes, it may appear to a non-shooter to be just a hole shot in piece of paper. You have to experience yourself the thrill of making that hole with either a rifle or pistol. Those first shots are not easy. As you shoot more you realize the concentration target shooting requires. After awhile you will try, as we all do, to put all of the bullets through a single hole. To be competitive doesn't mean join a club or shooting in a league. You will find you will compete against yourself and trying to make each group smaller, and smaller, and smaller. Give it a try.

You see, you don't have to be a hunter to have a great deal of fun shooting. Nor do you have to spend a lot of money. Many of us start with .22 cal. rifles and pistols. They are relatively inexpensive and so is the ammo.

Hope some of us will see you on the range.

With a big grin.:D
 
Welcome to THR, James!

Our members are from every walk of life - male, female, GLBT, black, white, cops, lawyers, photographers, you name it!

I own an array of firearms from 5-shot revolvers to bolt action rifles to an AR15. I own them because I can. I own them because I like shooting. I also own them for self-defense, and carry a gun on me every day. I don't go through my day in paranoia, wondering when something's going to happen - I believe it's better to be safe than sorry. I've had a psycho-ex threaten me before, and my gun was the only equalizer. I remember waiting for the police seemed like eternity.
 
I don't want to turn this thread into anything self-congratulatory, but I feel I MUST say:

There have been some sound, well-reasoned answers to James here (and not a SINGLE flame, AFAIK).

But Trisha, that was the most eloquent piece of prose I have seen since "Metal and Wood". I just became an Even Bigger Fan of yours!!! :D :D :D

FM
 
Guns

I think there has been enough post that put it better than I can, so I wont. I will tell you why I have guns. I use them to go deer and elk hunting, I have hunted birds in the past also. I enjoy shooting with my friends. The most important reason to me is…. Protection of my family and myself. I hope and pray I never have to shoot a human. There are those people that go out in the bush and kill any small animals that they see; I am not that kind of person. I do remember one-night 3 years ago when I was awaken at 2:30 AM by a noise at my sliding glass door. As I looked out my bedroom window I could see 3 men trying to “jimmy†the door. So I went to my closet and opened the gun safe that I have and pulled out my 12 gauge. Let me tell you that I was so pumped up with fear I was almost in tears, my wife was, and I could not load my gun. So I walked in my kitchen and finally shoved a shell into the tube magazine and walked closer to the door. I was standing 3 feet from the door and I was trying to yell but I could not, I was all cotton mouthed, so I put the barrel through the blinds and pumped the shell into the breach. At that moment I heard “holy ????†and the sound of metal hitting the concrete. They ran off. My wife called the cop during this incident. As the arrived, 10 minutes later, they received a call of a breaking and entering a couple of streets over. An hour later they came back to my house. The officer told me they had caught three men in a vacant home, the owners were on vacation. All three had knives. There is more to the story but I don’t have time to go over the whole thing. So that’s why I have guns. Once again I never want to shoot anyone but I don’t want to be a victim. I heard a statement once that went like this “ I don’t shoot to kill, I shoot to stay aliveâ€.

Mephisto

:)
 
James,

Welcome to the board. As you can tell from the responses to your questions there are many different answers. We all have our own reasons for owning, using and carrying firearms.

I thank you for your questions and your open mind. I hope we have given you something to think about. If nothing else comes from this thread you have made many of us think about the reasons we own guns. This introspection is good for us and makes us stronger.

Thank you.

Now what have you learned from this thread?
 
Btw, James, have you seen the "Pamela White" thread in Legal? It's at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27331 -- an article written by a pacifist woman about her experiences in taking a shooting class. Interesting stuff.

pax

Because the state can no longer protect us from crime, it wants to take away from us the means of protecting ourselves. This is the logic of gun control. -- Joseph Sobran
 
After all these well put out thoughts on why we like firearms as much as we do & the reasons,I'd like to see what James' thoughts are now...

By the way,WELCOME James'....
 
I have a fire extinguisher just in case there's a fire. I have a gun just in case my life, (or the lives of innocents) is threatened. I'll probably never NEED either one, but I'm a former boy scout, and I still believe in their motto. "Be prepared."
 
Trisha, WOW!!!

While I consider myself considerably literate,(though not able to voice my thoughts as well as I'd like), that was amazing!
You have another fan here.....
 
Welcome to THR James & Maurice! Responsibility dictates that I have the means, in addition to the ability, to protect my loved ones and myself.

Gun-Free zones are nothing more than killing fields waiting for the butcher. Criminals BREAK laws not adhere to them.

I wish I could put my finger on the study that showed the incidence of crime committed by people who possess a CCW permit. IIRC it was a miniscule percentage. Citizens who carry usually go out of their way to avoid trouble and confrontation.
 
Hi James,

Welcome to The High Road. I respect you for your courage and honesty. Most anti-gun individuals wouldn’t care what pro-gun people think.

I’m sure your questions will be answered fully and in great detail. I will leave that to those more educated and better communicators than I.

I do have a question for you. Please keep in mind, this question is more for an anti-gun mind, than you directly. Don’t take it as an insult or an attack.

So far in my 44 years of life I have needed or been thankful for having a firearm on me or handy a total of six times. And this from a guy who has a very unflattering and boring life. Thankfully I haven’t been forced to pull the trigger, and I pray that I will never have to.

I don’t hunt. Not because I don’t want to, but because I have other priorities. Some day I want to hunt on a regular basis, but not at this time. My firearms are owned for the purpose of self-defense. When I go to the range to shoot or to an IDPA match the targets are human silhouettes. At this time my shooting and training is for the purpose of self-defense only.

If anti-gun people in this country were to have their way, I would have been or would be in the future unarmed. Now my question:

Why do you want me and my family, dead?
 
.but is everyone out there really so paranoid that the government is going to come along one day, become a corrupt dictatorship, and kill everyone who opposes it?
Click to expand...

Are we talking about the same government that over the years has:

Attempted to exterminate the native population by the most ruthless means imaginable to fulfill manifest destiny?

Irradiated thousands of soldiers and sailors testing atomic weapons in 1950s?

Knowingly infected black males with syphilis and then withheld treatment so they could chart the progress of the disease?

Fought tooth and nail against Vietnam vets exposed to Agent Orange and more recently Gulf War vets exposed to whatever nerve agents caused Gulf War Syndrome?

Yeah the government is really great. [Unnecessary personal comments edited out by Tamara]
 
James,

Others have spoken about the ethical, moral, civil reasons that owning firearms is not an area that the federal government should speak on. Let me offer another.

I'm a health and safety specialist for a large corporation (hso stands for health and safety officer). My responsibility extends to 1,800 professionals scattered across the USA. There are another 35,000 fellow employess in other sectors that other folks just like me are responsible for. We spend our days (and often our nights) trying to ensure that our 30,000 + coworkers can perform their jobs safely.

When we look at hazards to workers we look at the statistics to determine if there is a trend or some indicator other than random chance. If the numbers are not small we look to introduce controls. The greater the hazard the greater the control. If the consequences are catastrophic and the potential for exposure is high we look at removing the hazard alltogether. Banning guns would represent a control to prevent "accidents" that are both catastrophic and have a high potential for exposure.

The numbers just aren't there for banning firearms.

The latest ('98) CDC death due to firearms statistics that I found support the postition that the government has no need to regulate firearms posession. The incidence rate of accidental deaths (that's total accidental deaths due to firearms adjusted to 100,000 population) is 0.28/100,000. This is less than the accidental injury (that's injury,not death) rate for insurance and banking industry employees. That's 866 accidental deaths for the entire population of the USA. Considering that OSHA considers an industry with an incidence rate below 1.0 not requiring specific regulation the incidence rate of accidental death due to firearms is so small as to be below the regulatable thresholds. And that's where the worker is being protected from the practices of the employer.

(Let me include that the incidence rate for all deaths due to firearms is equivalent to 10.54/100,000. This includes all the non-accidental willfull shooting deaths as well as accidental and suicides).

Why is it then that the govenment proposes to restrict/ban firearms ownership if guns represent less of a threat to the safety of the public than working as a clerk in an insurance company? As a health and safety professional there are no statistics that indicate that firearms ownership represents a credible risk to the American public.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/osh/os/ostb1133.txt
http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cftb0146.pdf
 
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Somebody put a "float" on this thread

I have never seen more eloquent expressions about the right to keep and bear arms and the joy of shooting. Thanks everyone... I learned a lot and hope James did too.
 
That's 866 accidental deaths for the entire population of the USA.
Click to expand...

Oh, and regarding the large numbers of "non-accidental" deaths that you'll see posted: When you take suicide out of the equation...

How many of those were criminals who were shot by police?

How many of them were criminals who were shot by citizens who were in fear of their lives?

How many of them were criminals who were shot by other criminals?

I don't know the exact numbers, but I'll wager that the dangerous thing that we're looking at isn't the availability/use of firearms, but in actuality is the criminal lifestyle. And I'll wager that when you remove criminals from the numbers, the remainder will be VERY small... Anyone have the numbers?
 
To James, welcome and thank you for the intellectual honesty to journey into the belly of the beast to seek fact and/or well-informed opinion

To my fellow THR members, you are to be congratulated on the level of discussion and discourse on this thread. I am proud to be in your company. Where James may have expected to find a bunch of redneck, knuckle-dragging, beer-swilling "Homers," he has been exposed to thoughtful, forthright, intelligent people...for the most part.

For those who are one of the redneck, knuckle-dragging, beer-swilling "Homers," allow me to say: "Hey, ya'll, hold my beer and watch this."
DOH!
 
Hi James, and welcome to THR. I hope you'll stay around and input your viewpoints into the various discussions here. It's always nice to have multiple viewpoints on any issue, and THR certainly encourages it! :)

Many have responded to your questions and statements far more eloquently than I could, so I'll limit myself to one point:

...but they were originally designed for killing things. i know that many of you here have killed more paper targets/ watermelons/ bowling pins/ old household appliances than living things, and see that as just as a hobby or honing of a skill. however, the skill is nothing less than being a more efficient killer.
Click to expand...

Do you wear a seatbelt when you're driving in a vehicle, James? Hopefully, you do! Why would you do that though? You're not planning on getting in a car wreck are you? Should we assume that just because you put on your seatbelt, that you're now going to go out and cause damage/death in a car simply because you've prepared for an accident? Or perhaps you put that seatbelt on just in case something unforseen happens. Just in case somebody is (illegally) driving drunk down the road and collides with you, or incase you have to swerve to avoid a child that ran into the road, causing you to hit a telephone pole or such. This is the same reasoning behind those who practice skills applicable to defending themselves with firearms. They aren't planning on killing anybody, nor do they hope to. They are simply preparing themselves in case they are required to defend against violent, criminal attacks.

With that in mind, I hope you'll take a second to consider your view of what defines becoming a 'more efficient killer'.
 
James, welcome to THR!!

I was made aware of this thread via email-asked to give my .02.

I'm another whom has had to use a firearm to defend myself or others-more than once.

Others have provided you answers and links as to the need, rights and training.

Firearms and firearm safety was just part of growing up for me. Firearms are just tools. Anything can be a tool. Computers, matches, guns, hammers, even a stick.Tools are inanimate objects that by themselves can do NO harm. A tool only becomes a tool when a user put it to use. A tool only becomes a weapon when there is an intent.

Your computer, an inamimate object that can do nothing without a user. A tool if you will, to communicate. It may be to write a letter, do a spreadsheet or a PowerPoint presentation. Now if your intent was evil , you could do harm by hacking and stealing personal ID's, bank accounts, or spreading falsehoods via the Web. Your computer is a tool and by the intent of the user defines the outcome. So, should we make computers illegal, and ban them?

Your Kitchen stove. You were taught I'm sure how to use it safely. That stove cannot do anything without a user. So you have been taught to use safely the stove to cook food. Now lets say you have intent to do harm. Your tool of choice is the stove, you place someone's hand forcefully onto the burner to force them against their will. Your stove is now a weapon because of your intent to do harm with a tool as innocent as a stove.

I was very young and shooting for recreation. My parents were away for a very short time to get medicine for a sick brother and I, being the eldest was babysitting my siblings. Bad men started to break in the front door and threatned to kill all of us inside. I sent/put my sibs under my parents bed and retrieved the family firearm. We did not have 911 at that time. I used a firearm to keep myself and sibs (including a 6 month y/o baby) safe and secure. I called a neighbor afterwards, they called the police, and they arrived some 30-40 min afterwards. My parents made it home to find the police there, and my parents, the police and neighbors understood I did what I had to do--The right thing. My firearm teaching of use and safety for recreation proved itself in defending my sibs. This was the first time, there have been others.

Please stick around , ask questions, follow the advice and references you will be given.

'73
 
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