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Immigration Reform: 10 Point Proposal

Discussion in 'Legal' started by El Tejon, May 21, 2005.

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  1. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Immigration being a hot topic on THR, but we rarely see proposals on how to fix it other than the occasional hotheaded comment by a Border Guard to murder illegal aliens. As if violence against a 17 year old who wants to wash dishes in Chicago to support his family in Mexico will solve anything or is the right thing to do.

    Last night I was reading the recent (May 23, 2005) issue of National Review and came across an article by Mark Krikorian (an eeevil son of an emmygrant!). Mr. Krikorian details the following proposal that I summarize for discussion here:

    1. Commitment to enforcement: politicians must acknowledge the problem of illegal immigration and pledge to treat it as a crisis.

    2. Even enforcement: across-the-board, long-term enforcement, not just silly raids for the cameras.

    3. No amnesty: the '86 amnesty created the climate of future amnesties and thus created more illegal immigration.

    4. Crack down on employers: long overdue. As an employer who has employed non-citizens, I resent the fact that large employers are free to ignore the regulations while IRS and INS kept me under a microscope. As well, since I work for some illegal aliens, I ask them why they came up here. I was shocked to learn that large factories recruit in Mexican cities, heck some have told me there are signs posted in the jumping off points along the border.

    5. Greater cooperation with states and cities: saw this in LE, we would beg INS or USA to do something. They ignored us. Long overdue.

    6. Document security: minimum federal standards for birth certs, DLs, etc.

    7. US-VISIT: speed up the program and not exempt Canada and Mexico.

    8. Streamline legal immigration: comparable to the CCW issue. It is an outrage that so many law-abiding people who want to become citizens are mired in forms and attorney fees while illegal aliens walk across the border and get amnesty, inter alia.

    9. Making "temporary" visas temporary.

    10. Discourage dual citizenship.

    What say you?
     
  2. Biker

    Biker Member

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    Overall, a good plan alhough #6 is a two-edged sword. I would also essentially put a 10 year moratorium on all immigration until we could sort our present immigration problems out.
    Finally, dual citizenship should not be allowed, period. If a man has two wives, to which does he pledge his faith and loyalty to?
    Biker
     
  3. wingman

    wingman Member

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    All good stuff, excellent, however I agree with second poster that a mortorium
    should be on the agenda but I would settle for a 3-5 year "hold" until we can
    regroup. America now takes in more then all countries combined, I know it may be hard to believe but this country also has limits to what we can afford.


    Please explain what your point was on the above.?
     
  4. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    wing, should have said "son of an eeevil emmygrant."
     
  5. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Good point to start the discussion. However, I see no provisions for taking the financial incentive for criminal immigration out of the mix. I would think that for any attempt to regain control to have a prayer of a chance, governmenthouse would have to remove financial incentives. Subsequent comments are directly related to the financials of criminal immigration.

    From the criminalee side remove all welfare bennies, full stop. No dual citizenships. Pick one and live with the consequences. No anchor babies. No need to re-unite fractured families.

    From the criminalor side, The CEO or owner of a bidness regardless of how big does time in the big house if his charge is found to hiring criminal aliens. His or her company will have all assets associated production of revenue from the use of criminal aliens confiscated. Hey, you can take my car on a whim then big boys need to suffer the same kinds of sanctions.

    From the enabler side (aka government), develop the ability to do a database search via telephone to check the validity of SSN's. Governmenthouse hasn't done it thus far because it makes too much sense and it will be quite effective in stopping the sharing of SSN's.

    Lots of other things to be done, bt my suggestions only deal with the revenue side of the equation.
     
  6. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I think you would find wide support for your plan along our side of the U.S./Mexican border. It has been our experience however, that the authorities that could do something constructive about the situation don't want too. There are too many in powerful positions making money, or expecting political support in the future. The expectation here is that nothing will happen until (or unless) we get into another 911 kind of attack, and it is found that those responsible, or the materials they used, were slipped accross the border. Then, probably only for the short term, something will be done.

    That said, the discussion you've started is a useful one, even if it's only between ourselves.
     
  7. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Democrats have decided Bush will be impeached. Abuse of prisoners is the cause celebra. I personally have drawn a line in the sand at criminal immigration. We get hit and it is found to have come from across the southern border, he gets impeached. But you are right. Those making the money and those receiving the money do not want it stopped. And it is for that reason nothing will be done until a city gets smoked.
     
  8. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    Good thread. I am in general agreement with the proposals but second those who believe we need at least a temporary immigration moratorium and a thorough overhaul of the social welfare give-aways. Denying citizenship to children of illegal aliens ought to also be on the docket.

    I am no more optimistic than the rest of you that anything substantive will be done without serious upheaval first. It may be an attack or attacks sourced south of the border or it may be social strife from ethnic warfare within our borders, especially if the anti-illegal immigration movement picks up steam and actually starts having an impact.

    I don't really see any benign way out of the current mess, unfortunately. The reforms being proposed won't work; they are at best Band-Aids over a malignancy. We have allowed this to get way out of control and now we are going to pay the price.

    The real issues here go beyond just immigration; they go to our views of what America is really all about in 2005. Do we care any more about the principles that underpin the Republic or are we just a collective of convenience- and comfort-driven consumers who will cut any deal to buy a little more pleasure?
     
  9. Navy joe

    Navy joe Member

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    What really is not touched on is the why of controlling immigration. We need immigration, we are a nation built on immigration. However, uncontrolled immigration will ruin the country.

    -National Security. There are way too many tan colored folks who can't speak a lick of spanish clearing our southern border. The implications are obvious.

    -National prosperity. Non taxed immigrants using public health and welfare structures will bankrupt us. Easy way to fix is to cut off the tap for everyone, let the unmotivated find some other socialist paradise. Another big problem is GDP loss, a significant portion of money that illegals make is going out of country rather than being spent here.

    -Regional stability. Rather than throw money at all of Central America, how about controlling our borders so the best and the brightest in those countries stay home. Support stable non-corrupt governments so that the people creative and determined enough to get out want to stay. If we let everyone in our resources, land space, etc. will be reduced and we will be bordered by numerous nations who are wastelands created by the talent and manpower vacumn of our uncontrolled border. Destabilized countires are ripe for takeover by dictatorial fanatics, purchase by criminal elements, often one in the same. I guess that leads to drug legalization so as to remove the revenue stream that empowers the grand scale criminals and corrupts their governments.

    Seal the border, deport illegals here, take companies to court who hire illegals, and Congress set annual immigration quotas.
     
  10. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    11. Rethink "compassion"

    Free medical services is a problem. If the law says that a person cannot be turned away, that's a problem, right? Who is to pay for it?

    If we cannot afford or be expected to care for the entire world, isn't it true that we are compassionate when a problem is right under our nose, but that compassion is much more restrained outside our borders, supported by aid programs if at all. There is only so much one can do.

    Whose law is this? Who decided that the US must provide medical services for Mexico? Are we our own worst enemy in providing this incentive to sneak into the country? Why should having children here not be a problem? Oh, we could help all right, but deportation should be a consequence, if the needy parties are not legal immigrants or citizens. Babies of illegal immigrants ARE NOT citizens in my view. I have lost track of what the law actually might be. It wouldn't be logical.

    It is my understanding that AZ has some plan to use Real ID cards to restrict medical center services.

    I think I would say that if an illegal immigrant needed medical treatment, there would need to be a willingness to be deported as a consequence after some recovery (How badly do you need help? What's it worth to you?) . I believe that would mean that one unable to demonstrate citizenship or immigration status would have to be reported to immigration authorities, perhaps starting with local police.

    I hate this Draconian kind of stuff, but what rights should an illegal immigrant have?
     
  11. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    The choice is "Draconian" or self-immolation. It will come to that, with or without debate.

    Compassion should never trump self-preservation and the ensuring of primary values. Dealing with the immigration problem is going to require some philosophical spadework. We are going to need to assess our Christian roots and what kind of Christianity is impelling the humanitarian impulses that color this issue.
     
  12. wingman

    wingman Member

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    True helping others is great, to destroy yourself in the process is foolish.
    Texas is facing a large problem with schools and health care much in part
    to illegal immigration, the wealthy want the cheap labor but they don't
    like paying the taxes required so the burden is on the lower middleclass
    and the working poor with property tax.

    We must reassess the whole immigration process including numbers if we
    wish to survive. :banghead:
     
  13. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Why must our hospitals provide free services to illegal migrants?

    Who says that children born of illegal migrant parents are U.S. citizens?

    The COURTS of course, from the United States Supreme Court on down, and to some degree the U.S. Congress when it was controled by socialist-leaning Democrats.

    Who says that children born in the United States still have citizenship in Mexico?

    The Mexican government of course, and the COURTS in the United States have agreed.

    If this is going to change it will be necessary to get some judges with a different viewpoint. This is part of the reason a major argument is going on in the U.S. Senate right now.

    If you want different judges write your senators and say so.
     
  14. Otherguy Overby

    Otherguy Overby member

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    No time soon

    When they've got you searching for the wrong answer, they've won.

    The wrong answer, of course, is closing the borders. (PERIOD)

    The right answer: just stop providing social services to aliens. No welfare, no medical services, no education for their offspring, no driver licenses and NO VOTING.. IOW, currently, everyone gets to vote on where our tax dollars go, 'cept us.

    Then, the PC bunch weighs in and tells us how we are "expected" to vote...
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2005
  15. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    That suggests to me that perhaps citizen-initiated, referendum voting should be much more common. What an anarchic idea!
     
  16. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Very reluctantly, I'm moving in that general direction.

    We could solve at least 80% of the problem that way—and raise plenty of money though very heavy fines to address the remainder of the problem.

    Aha! The crux of the matter becomes apparent at last.
     
  17. The Rabbi

    The Rabbi member

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    I have my own sure-fire proposals for ending illegal immigration. Sure they're draconian but if we want to stop this blight it'll be well worth it:

    1) Triple all taxes. Income, gas, cigarette, highway, you name it.
    2) Institute mandatory worker documentation for every employer, to be signed off on every month.
    3) Lower tarrifs on goods from Mexico. Heck, subsidize them with all the tax money collected.
    4) Eliminate all public funding of hospitals, health care facilities, and schools. Let 'em die on the streets if they cant pay.

    After our economy is a wrecked, smoking ruin and Mexico's looks like Shangri-La we'll see the spectre of Mexican politicians trying to keep cheap American labor out of their markets.
     
  18. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    O.K.

    But remember I can get there before you can ... :evil:
     
  19. Jammer Six

    Jammer Six member

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    The U.S. gets stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border, and their home country gets weaker.

    The weak, lame and lazy aren't the ones who come.

    If I wanted to be a policeman, I'd be wearing a blue uniform. Small businessmen are not policemen, and generally aren't interested in doing police work. That includes immigration police work. Find another way. That one was a non-starter, and anything it cost me is going to get passed straight on through to you, without preventing a single illegal immigrant. It doesn't really matter to me if you believe that or not, because I don't have to pay for it.

    The overwhelming majority of the illegal Latin immigrants in my city can furnish me with the correct documentation I need to hire them.

    The illegal Latin immigrants in this city who don't have the correct documentation can purchase it for less than two hour's pay, at the rates I pay, and they can do so by tomorrow morning.

    Taken together, the last two points mean that I will easily be able to withstand any scrutiny from any agency that you cobble together to "go after" employers, because I am innocent, and easily able to comply with the letter of the law. It won't cost me anything, and even if it does, you will pay the bill.

    At some point, the overwhelming majority of your ancestors were immigrants. Some of them were even "legal".

    Tight borders would include many, many restrictions that other threads, right here on THR, are railing against. You can't have both. If you want tight borders, tell us how your national ID card system would work, and tell us about the cavity searches you would impose to prevent corruption of that system.

    I'm not willing to give up the freedoms that everyone would have to give up to close the borders. As long as I hold this view, it's safe to say that there are others like me, with similar views. Some of us are your employers. Many of us vote. You will never get us to surrender the freedoms we've decided to cherish in exchange for an illusion, whether in the name of fear, expense or expedience.

    If you ever do succeed in closing the borders, get ready for a fight, because the things you will need to do to sucessfully close the borders guarantee that I and other men who consider themselves free won't abide by, and we'll be coming for you. So far, we've never had to use anything but lawyers, money and votes, but don't mistake that for a lack of will.

    Tight borders are an excellent indicator of fear, weakness, and other things that don't apply to America.

    At least, they don't apply to most Americans. That's how the borders got this way in the first place.
     
  20. The Rabbi

    The Rabbi member

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    +1 Jammer Six.
     
  21. Combat-wombat

    Combat-wombat Member

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    I'd agree with you except for your tenth point. What's wrong with dual citizenship as long as it's legally citizenship in both countries?
     
  22. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Ummmm, next time you see one of those pocket-constitutions for sale at a gunshow I suggest you purchase it, and read it.

    AMMENDMENT XIV :

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

    Your parents have NO EFFECT on your status in any way, shape, or form in this country.
     
  23. spartacus2002

    spartacus2002 Member

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    Take a look at the videos at http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1767&st=0 I think what worries me more is the PRO-illegal immigrant movement.

    :barf: what a rosy-eyed picture. I'm sure it is true for those who put up with the LEGAL immigration process, but look at the number of illegal immigrants who constitute jail populations and gang memberships.
     
  24. wingman

    wingman Member

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    :barf:
     
  25. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    "Oh, what tangled webs we weave." What if a Court ruled that citizenship for a child of one here illegally was not in the spirit of this amendment?

    You have to be careful that pro-lifers don't turn this amendment into "all persons conceived". Think about it. At some point you have to stop and say, wait a minute. What is the real intent here?

    I don't doubt that this amendment is used literally. I still say its application can be illogical and a self inflicted wound.
     
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