Implications of the Tueller Drill

[mr_dove]

Most of us are familiar with the Tueller Drill. A bad guy with a contact weapon (knife, club, axe, etc) can generally clear 21 feet before you can ready your weapon and fire.

The clearest implication of the Tueller drill is that a bad guy with a knife does not have to be within arms reach to be a threat.

What other implications are there in the results of the Tueller drill?

When your attacker is within the 21' (say 5 or 10 feet) should your handgun still be your preferred defense weapon or would you ever prefer a knife at extreme close range?

 

[ShackleMeNot]

The Tueller Drill also shows that YOU need to be moving to maintain as much distance as possible while you deploy your own weapon or deal with your attacker’s weapon.

 

[Correia]

And 21 feet was from a duty holster, from an officer on a range during a training exercise. How much more distance is going to be covered if you are drawing from concealment and taken by surprise?

Would I ever want a knife over a handgun? Nope. That is what firing from retention is for, worst case scenario.

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Another important consideration when dealing with an edged weapon is the availablity of obstacles. Unlike cover and concealment, which are defined by the ability to block gunfire or sight, a useful obstacle when facing an edged weapon is anything that requires time to get around or over, magnifying your reactionary gap. Even a short chain link fence, which would be fairly useless in a gunfight, can buy you invaluable time when dealing with an edged weapon.

Unless there is a very specific, situational reason to use something else, a firearm is the first choice for dealing with an immediate, deadly threat.

 

[Drav]

Using a chair like a liontamer works well too, against a knife.

 

[Bix]

I think one of the major lessons to draw from the drill is that you may well be fighting before you are able to access any tools.

Happily, nowadays, there are a lot of training opportunities available to help develop the skills necessary to deal with this particular issue.

 

[1911Tuner]

Knife

The main problem when dealing with a knife man who knows what he's doing...as opposed to an idiot who only knows what he imagines in his tiny little brain...is that, with the real-deal blade fighter, your first indication that you're under attack is usually at the instant that you get cut. At that point, the Tueller or any other training drill will go out the window, and the backpedalling/shooting frantically from the hip (while your off hand gets sliced up) begins.

 

[FXR]

It also means that in a light-density crowd, you have a 21-foot radius (or a circle 42 feet in diameter, with you in the center) of people that you have to be immediately concerned about.

My lesson learned: a guy with a knife is a threat from farther away than I would intuitively think. But that Tueller-distance is not a get out of jail free card.

I have no intention of being spring-loaded to shoot anyone within a 21-foot radius of me just becuase I see a blade. I can only imagine the legal grief that would ensue if I shot some guy across the street when he flashed a knife at me.

"But, but, he had a knife! It was 20.5 feet! And I watched a DVD of the Tueller Drill!" will not serve as a sound legal defense.

K

 

[sacp81170a]

with the real-deal blade fighter, your first indication that you're under attack is usually at the instant that you get cut

+1. In fact, with a real knife fighter, he won't cut, he'll stab. A stab in the right place with even a short blade is deadly. The Romans knew this, which is why they used a short stabbing sword over a longer, slashing type of blade. Think European fencing and you'll get a good idea. (The katana and tachi used by the samurai were the exceptions to this rule, since a well made blade could literally cut a man in half in the hands of a competent user. The rest of the world didn't have this quality of blade available.)

A sharpened length of coat hanger wire in a rolled up newspaper makes a devastating improvised weapon. The target of the attack will seldom suspect that he is about to be stabbed in the heart or aorta. IIRC, this type of attack used to be common in South Africa. Anyone from there care to comment?

 

[Azrael256]

"But, but, he had a knife! It was 20.5 feet! And I watched a DVD of the Tueller Drill!" will not serve as a sound legal defense.

Ok, maybe not if he flashed the knife, but running at me while waving the knife and screaming "I'm gonna kill you!" is probably a decent justification. They did teach the 21' rule in my CHL class.

 

[roscoe]

Seems to me that the main lesson is to use your feet when you have to.

 

[Jamie C.]

(The katana and tachi used by the samurai were the exceptions to this rule, since a well made blade could literally cut a man in half in the hands of a competent user. The rest of the world didn't have this quality of blade available.)

Oh boy...
I tell ya, Hollywood has gotten almost as many myths started about edged weapons as they have about guns... ( Most European swords were quite capable of cutting a human in half, or quite easily shearing off an arm or leg. They were anything but the blunt clubs the movies would have you believe. They generally didn't weigh more than a couple of pounds too. )
Go take a look around here if you have any questions about knives or swords, and exactly what they can or cannot do.... and why:
http://swordforum.com

One way or the other, a man (or woman) with an edged weapon, inside of 20-25 feet, is a threat that is not to be taken lightly. You'd better have some serious hand to hand skills, as well as a whole lot of luck, to go along with your firearm skills. And as has already been mentioned, unless the person with the knife is a total idiot, you most likely WILL get cut.

There's one other thing I should probably mention concerning possible attacks.... Most people will watch the eyes and face of someone they think may be a threat. And if you're really good at reading people, or if the person is making no effort to hide what's on their mind, you may indeed see some clue there as to what they're planning on doing. However, the part they're going to use to try to kill you, and the part you should be mindful of, is their hands.
Odds are, if you've got somebody coming toward you that you have doubts about, or feel is a threat, and you can't see both hands clearly, you'd better be putting something between you and them.


J.C.

 

[AndyC]

A sharpened length of coat hanger wire in a rolled up newspaper makes a devastating improvised weapon. The target of the attack will seldom suspect that he is about to be stabbed in the heart or aorta. IIRC, this type of attack used to be common in South Africa. Anyone from there care to comment?

In prison a sharpened length of strong wire is commonly used as a shiv, yes - on South African streets you're more likely to encounter screwdrivers, knives, machetes (called "pangas" there), stolen handguns or AK47s. Can't remember any particular passion for coathanger wire as such, though - there are just too many other tools available that the criminals can and will use.

 

[Soap]

The implications that I see of the Tueller Drill are awareness is key and don't believe that a gun on your hip is a magic talisman. Too many people think that "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" BS they hear in movies is true. The fact is, multiple times in training and just messing around I have owned people with a practice blade. And I'm not exactly James Keating either...

 

[Bob F.]

I can't claim to be either very experienced or particularly well trained, unfortunately. However, I firmly believe that sometimes, in CERTAIN circumstances, your hands can be your life-saver against any weapon, simply because they're quickest to deploy when up close and personal!

Stay safe.
Bob

 

[Grump]

Roscoe's right--the implications are 1: be ready to RUN!!!

Remember the joke about the two hikers and the bear? One stops to tighten his bootlaces. "You're nuts, why you doing that??!?!"
"To run faster!"
"You can't outrun a bear!"
"Who said I need to outrun the BEAR?"

The clearest implication of the Tueller drill is that a bad guy with a knife does not have to be within arms reach to be a threat.

Uh, 'fraid we're oversimplifying and forgetting that Tueller was run from duty holster (Corriea put that part of it quite well, for the STOWED gun situation.)

We need Tueller repeated for the OTHER various states of readiness, like "It looked fishy, I saw flanking movements and pack-predator behavior" (if multiples--or "He/she/it kept walking towards me despite my evasive/disengagement path and was looking straight at me with a threatening look and was keeping his hands behind him", etc), "so I placed my hand on my weapon with my hand staying under my jacket..."

I've seen variations on that theme many times on THR. Have you? Good. Knew you had.

And the hand-on-the-gun drill should be run such that there are several quite different lengths of time before the attack so what surprise is possible is maximized.

Run it with gun drawn, in one hand hidden just out of "fishy" person's view.

Run it again from low-ready.

All may not be lost inside 21 feet if you are NOT in condition White. KnowwhutImean, Vern?

But if you get caught unawares (can happen to the most alert, thanks to deceptive BadPeople), Bob F. and 1911Tuner have the other implications down for us to consider and learn from.

 

[sm]

Other Implications :

Use the Tueller to one's own advantage.

Yes I know we are to evade and gain distance.

Then again we "may" need to be on the offense, to be defensive.

-BG is standing there with arms extended , shaking, pointing a gun at the Quick-Stop Clerk , like in the movies.. you are around the corner not in view of BG 1) run out door to get help, or 2) snag that broom left at candy display and be on him so fast and knock gun down and perhaps out of his hand(s).

You own him.

Maybe a no CCW jurisdiction - not everyone can carry. So sometimes we forget firearms are PART of the toolbox and not THE toolbox.

Another example, learned from Tueller.

No BG, no gun situation. Kid strolls out into street / lane in shopping center. Car is coming - anyone ever run out and snatch a kid to safety?

Mindset to MOVE, get distance, evade - flipped 180* - Move get distance, to snag a child, push someone out of the way of falling debris from a construction site, fire, oncoming car...fire is good one, snagging a fire extinguisher and using one - instead of hands to face and hestitating...

One way we demonstrated the Tueller was to have a shooter, and the non-shooter at the shooter's back, at the beep, non shooter runs further back from firing line, at 1.5 seconds beep again.

Non shooters were surprised how much distance they covered. We did this with all ages , both genders and various physical abilities ( had folks with limps and canes for instance).

Shooter sometimes did not get a shot off from concealment.

A variation was the non shooter was to stop at the report of first gunshot.
Take note of that distance - using the 1.5 second rule.

Variation again - non shooter runs until a shot is fired. Now that distance is viewed. 1.5 vs 2.0 vs 2.5...well distances increase and shooter better understands that "quick accurate hit". Non shooter better understand how distance is a true friend.

Non shooters learned they should train themselves to MOVE - not freeze up, not hesitate, not even for a "split second" - viewing distances, others doing this drill...

Tueller may allow you own a BG, prevent a toddler from falling off a porch, or pulling that tablecloth and heavy cassarole dish onto him/her. You may get fire extinguisher in play to control a small fire, instead of having to deal with a bigger fire.

Time and distance.

Good to know, Tueller implications can be non-firearm / non-BG as well.

Strategies and Tactics - name of the game is to survive.

 

[Grump]

Good points, SM.

Hadn't remembered how I could jam up my Karate-practicing brother sometimes by lunging IN and either giving him and elbow or knee or just a shoulder-bump.

Then one day he snaked his leg behind me and kicked me in the back with his heel. I think we may have both lost that exchange...

 

[mfree]

This is why part of my "defense drill" is to grab my little hiking machete... aka the cheap stainless katana. That's in the left, pistol in the right, anyone who rushes me is in for a double surprise and I can hold off someone beyond arm's length.

EDIT: I'm talking home defense here, of course Didn't mean to give the impression I'm carrying a cheap katana around on the streets....

 

[Maxwell]

Reading up on brass knuckles and what-not today, the page I was on strayed into other alternative weapons.
Considering the tueller, and the satisfying weight of my CZ p01, I wonderd if there would be a situation where in close combat you wouldnt just use the pistol as a large and bulky fistload.

I mean if you can not bring the gun to bear properly, or you just need to buy that inch of space, why not pistolwhip the gremlin across his face?
A gun in hand isint a bad bludgeon... maybe not the best use, but an option?

 

[NMshooter]

You have to be within reach to get cut.

Often there will be something you can put between you and the person with the knife... if you are paying attention, and see what is coming in time.

Small knives are easier to hide in the hand, and a good reason to be careful who you let within arm's reach of you.

Do not turn to run unless you have done something to slow up your attacker, who may not pass up a free shot at your back.

Stuff like this is why I like to keep my Surefire 6P in my off hand if I am outside at night.

 

[Dragoon44]

The main lesson to be learned rom the drill is that an attacker withing 21' of you with a blunt insurment or edged weapon is fully capable of stabbing you or clubbing you within about 1.5 sec. Which is why anyone close to that distance who is threatining you with bodily harm should allready be covered by your firearm. My adivce is that if they are withing 21' threating you, and moving towards you, Shoot them.

 

[NineseveN]

Watch their hands; hands kill.

The eyes are good for reading people, but the hands will give it away every time. If you want to know if the female across the bar digs you, the eyes have it...it you want to know who intends to do you harm, it's all in the hands.

Yeah, you're gonna get cut, especially if the aggressor is good with a blade, but they're gonna get shot, a whole lot of times if you do your part. Sometimes self defense ain't perfect, and sometimes you have to take your licks while your giving them to someone else...the key is to keep that in mind and not panic. If you draw on a person with a knife, you'll probably get cut...if you draw on a person with a gun, you're gonna get shot at and perhaps shot. You need to reconcile your mindset and feelings on the matter before it happens, otherwise it might be best to leave the guns at home. Just my 2 shillings on the matter.

 

[autospike]

I don't think that in a typical *criminal assault*, the bad guy is going to whip out his knife anywhere near 21' away and let you see it so you can draw and fire. He ain't gonna get paid that way.

He's going to thug you.
He's going to try to close distance with you via a ruse or whatever, while his buddy watches out for him.
And if he gets close, he's going to stick it in you or put it on you and tell you what he wants.

So I guess the main thing to know how to do is to manage all these folks you come into contact with every day. Pre-empt their closure with you and assess them.

Would I ever use a knife first? Maybe. Might use empty hands or a flashlight, or pepperspray. Why? Because if I've screwed up and let him come in on me, or if I'm in a really confined area, I may not even be able to draw to retention because access to my gun might be blocked. But, I might be able to draw that small fixed blade knife I keep in a totally different area.

Make no mistake about it, once he sees you go for a draw, he's going to know what's up and that weapon will be in play. He'll do everything he can to foul your draw and make it his.

One thing is for sure, if you get fixated on any one weapon, you may lose the fight and a lot more.

Edited to say: Yeah, you will need a killer drawstroke that goes straight into a retention position and gets your off hand fending or protecting gun or your noggin so you won't get KO'd.

How to learn all this? Go find yourself a really good instructor who does force on force training.