Improved 308 combat loading?

[alucard0822]

Suppose you are going to war with a .308 semiauto rifle, and you get to specify what ammo you will use. What would you pick as general-purpose cartridge?

I did not assume a disaster evacuation role like lucky posted, more of a foreign deployment as a grunt, but where you could choose ammo to use, other than issued. I like 308 as it has a lot of power for fighting close, and great long range potential. Also assuming deployment you would have learned ranging and possibly mil-dot (if scoped) use. I practice shootng up to about 800yds with a savage 10fp and AR10, and am fairly confident I could do Minute of BG at up to about 500yds fairly consistently with the irons on the AR, and definitely with the scope on the savage.

 

[gunnie]

attn: alucard0822

yeah, i feel sure i could also, gotta sweet FAL with a 1x4 leo atop in a custom dust cover mount that'll do MOA, when i do. same is probably capable of more, but the old style x-heavy duplex crosshairs on leopold subtend over 1" @ 100. this, by choice, as they show up in any light i can find a target in. it is VERY fast @ 1X, both eyes open.

gotta surgical grade 308 bolt with springfield armory 168gr sierra matchking drop calibrated reticle scope that takes all of the guesswork outta holdover. and same will pretty closely find range with the 12" subtending crosshair for each 100 yd increment. with correct "+" crosshair overlayed on sapiens head and neck. this HAS done 5 shots of Fed .308M, just over 5" @ 600, in very slight intermittent breeze, holding 6" left of target bullseye. group was 3" high by 5 1/8th" wide, with the breeze being the prime variable factor. this did require that i only shot when the breeze seemed the same as when the first round went downstream. this rig makes the (in my own experience) exceptionally accurate semi seem like shooting shotgun slugs @ 100yds.



also, am lucky enough to have a lazed 600yd range from back porch. the 3/4" thick X 12" horiz X 24" vertical metal plates spaced in 100yd increments from 300yd starter. audible real time scoring on these.

still, under HIGH stress, windy conditions on mobile and/or barricaded BG's @ 500, i would realistically have to guess only suppression fire from the semi.

with iron sights at distance, i might as well throw rocks. the old eyeballs aren't that good anymore. but even young eyes have a hard time finding camo targets at range.

at 300, however, from the semi @4x scope magnification, ten rounds in <20 seconds will kill zone easily. typically these run about 5-6". i have not shot the FAL for accuracy @300, as this does not really seem to me like what i'd need it for, SHTF. i haven't experienced wind that mattered at this range as of yet.

gunnie

the russians have a saying... the difference between an optimist and a pessimist is that the later is usually better informed.

 

[alucard0822]

I guess the debate centers around what is more important in a combat situation, enhanced AP capability, or enhanced long range capability. I think it is obvious what I favor.

 

[Lucky]

Agreed, but in another similar thread I was reading about 110 gr bullets, and can't wait to test and compare them with 150's in a new M1a I got. I want to see just how much muzzle rise there is between them, how long to get back on target, etc.

 

[gunnie]

yet more

am curious, how does the AR10 like 165gr BT opposed to 150gr BT BALL? (groupwise) the FAL's i have owned all showed a definite preference for 150gr bullets. i have shot a lot of 150gr in HK's, but not 165gr in them that i recall, either. anyone know how well they like 165gr ammo?

would be sweet to have a semi that liked fed 308M, the FAL's i have shot DON'T.

gunnie

seek and ye shall find

 

[Zak Smith]

When I had my AR10, the most accurate factory load was the FGMM 168gr, which shot around 0.75 MOA.

-z

 

[alucard0822]

When I had my AR10, the most accurate factory load was the FGMM 168gr, which shot around 0.75 MOA.

I haven't found a rifle that does't like it, I have similar results with the AR-10 and savage 10fp

 

[Surplussoldier]

Pardon me, but what is the FGMM 168gr?

 

[Zak Smith]

Federal Gold Medal Match

 

[Oohrah]

Finally a common sense question instead of jumping all over with
obsolete calibers and ammo that might work and platforms that
encourage spray and pray. My roots go back to the 30-06;
however, nothing wrong with the 7.62x51 with simular ballistics.
Todays new tech in powders and bullets make for better ammo period.
We very well could be involved in an undeclared war, and I would not
discount the mentioned bullet weights with expanding bullets. The
cartridge chosen will take care of all things close and afar. The 168 gr
is a good middle ground for 1 in 10 twist barrels. To the member waiting
for the 100 gr load, it isn't practical for short and can't see where long
range advantage. Years ago used a 100gr half jacket at very moderate
ranges for jack rabbits. Totally explosive up to 150 yds and not a pene-
trator! Many options out there, but I believe that keeping requirements
close to match specs is the way to go! Early in Nam, the rifles and ammo
were mostly in the 30-06 caliber. Snipe teams issued LC Match by the case.
Seemed to work well at any distance that you could see.

 

[Davo]

I read about snipers in wars past using AP rounds against enemy optics, machine guns, etc. How would our match rounds fare in this role? Has anyone ever employed match grade AP rounds?

 

[gunnie]

savage 10

"I haven't found a rifle that does't like it, I have similar results with the AR-10 and savage 10fp"

have no personal experience with this, but a friend has a savage 10fp also, and says his likes the aussie 147gr ball surplus almost as much as fed 308M for close ranges. good CHEAP ammo for 100yd practice. you may wanna give same a try?

thanx for the AR10 X 165gr sierra MK info. anyone have some reports on HK91 and/or clones as to their preferences in this loading?

gunnie

i keep watching the movie stars for shooting tips...the latest trends promote holding handguns horizontally, and sighting with one's nipple-eye. can't wait for the weekend to practice these advanced techniques.......

 

[alucard0822]

I have tried some west german, lake city, and south african surplus, all with 147gr FMJ, all fed and functioned fine in search of cheap ar-10 blasting ammo.
None have grouped anywhere near as tight as the SMK topped 168 or 175 gr FGMM, surplus groups around 4" at 100yds off of the bench, the Match ammo groups consistently around an inch, on good wind free days i can get 10 shot groups under an inch, at 600 yards that would translate into a 24" group vs a 6"group, which I have confirmed, but back when it was cheap the surplus made for cheap bump firing lead flinging fun. Of couse that was before I got into reloading, it is hard to beat the FGMM accuracy, but it can be done.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have seen the Austrailian 308 surplus shoot about 1 MOA from several high-end bolt guns.

 

[alucard0822]

I have seen the Austrailian 308 surplus shoot about 1 MOA from several high-end bolt guns

I don't have any so called "High end" rifles, the DPMS AR-10 is probably the closest. My bang for the buck rifles just don't shoot surplus all that well (the AR is a little better than the savage). I haven't found any australian surplus, but due to the current state of affairs as far as ammo goes I almost exclusively load 168 or 175 gr SMK over varget, surplus costs me more than my reloads, I can get decent 1.5"-2" performance out of 147gr Winchester FMJ that I use mostly in my 30-06 garand, and I can load them on the cheap. Hopefully soon if I can get enough overtime I can try it out in a SA M1A standard.

 

[cpileri]

OK, new idea!

I thought of an easier way:

Take a pulled or new SS109 .223 Projectile, the one with the penetrator nose. Don't modify it at all.

Get some empty 308 jackets as previously described and some molten lead or solder and drip in a few drops into the empty shell.

While still molten, shove the 223 projectile nose first down into the jacket and hold it perfectly upright until it cools enough to support itself. Put a couple more drops to completely enclose the base of the 223 inside the 308 jacket with lead/solder.

There, that sounds MUCH easier!

C-

 

[alucard0822]

the problem with most of the home built penetrator bullets is that they would be verry hard to make concentric, even lake city has a hard time getting that little steel peice centered, and because steel is less dense than lead any little bit off center and the bullet will wobble severely. A small steel penetrator works to supplement the poor penetration of 5.56, especially at longer ranges, but at those ranges 5.56 loses it's ability to reliably fragment and turns into a glorified 22, 7.62x51 has decent penetration as is, a carbide penetrator increases that fairly signifigantly, but at a loss of accuracy, and some variants are underweight to achieve higher velocity with a small dart like penetrator, either way AP is predominantly designed for machine guns, not for precision.

 

[slzy]

would 243 been better to start with?

 

[Lucky]

There's also the question of what's the purpose of an AP rifle bullet. Most materials won't stop a normal one, and those that will are probably too much for an AP rifle bullet anyway. Performance is not hugely better, penetration isn't even doubled.

 

[gunnie]

heed what alucard0822 says....

the 308 ball load does about 2,800fps, most 150 grain specific twists are tighter than this, but for the sake of ease, we'll say it is fired from a in a 1:12 twist bbl.

the equation would be:

2,800[feet per second] X 1 [complete revolution for each foot]

this would be an AMAZING 2,800 revs PER SECOND, furthermore,

2,800 [rps] X 60 [seconds]=168,000 RPM

what else can you think of that spins this fast? look at the painstaking precision hot rodders will invest in balancing an engine that'll only spin >10,000 RPM!

and this is really slower than it would be spinning, due to my rounding off at a 12" twist.

as alucard0822 said:
..."and because steel is less dense than lead any little bit off center and the bullet will wobble severely..."

gunnie

"at a time, when the world, seems to be spinning, hopelessly out of control..."

words of the great chinese philosopher, willie nelson, from "hands on the wheel", "red headed stranger" albumn.