Can any of you experienced Highpower/Service Rifle shooters suggest some reading material to help me improve my score? I'm not talking about handloading, rifle maintainance, equipment, or any of that. I need some help working on my technique. For the past two seasons, I have been shooting pretty solidly in the 740's, with one match as high as 759. Now, however, I'm in the 730's, with my offhand as low as 171 (yesterday). I've shot as high as 196 in my rapid fire sitting, prone, and slow fire prone. Offhand, however, is killing my score. If I could just get my offhand consistently in the 180's I'd be happy. I'll admit that I need to practice more, but I was hoping to find some literature that could help me get back to the fundamentals.
Improving Highpower Score
- Thread starter Pat M
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dprice3844444
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try the p90x fitness program
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
It's been a long time since I shot a service rifle match. Coming up on 20 years now.
Back in the Marines my offhand always killed my score, too. When I shot inter-unit competition, I spent a LOT more time dry firing and snapping in. That improved my score more than anthing else. I dry fired in short sessions. Nothing more than 20 minutes long. Any longer than that and my concentration wandered and technique got sloppy.
When you see your form begin to get sloppy, don't power through it. Stop. Go eat, go do something else. Take your mind off it and come back later. Practice perform form, and only perfect form, so your body learns and remembers it. If you try to power through it, you'll simply fatigue and your body will try to compensate for it. And now you're learning bad form.
Many sports players also talk about mental practice. A baseball player might think about connecting with the bat. What it looks like as the pitch comes in, when he swings, or when not to.
Think about what a proper shot looks like in your mind. First acquire your natural point of aim. Go through the exercise to get your natural resting breath. See the sight picture, and proper sight alignment. What does your body look like, how does it feel? Think about the trigger press. Hear and feel the shot break, and the proper follow through. Call your shot, where did it break?
Go through the entire repetition in your mind, sitting in the comfort of your chair. You can shoot an entire match mentally. Dry firing disciplines your body. This exercise disciplines your mind.
Does this help?
Back in the Marines my offhand always killed my score, too. When I shot inter-unit competition, I spent a LOT more time dry firing and snapping in. That improved my score more than anthing else. I dry fired in short sessions. Nothing more than 20 minutes long. Any longer than that and my concentration wandered and technique got sloppy.
When you see your form begin to get sloppy, don't power through it. Stop. Go eat, go do something else. Take your mind off it and come back later. Practice perform form, and only perfect form, so your body learns and remembers it. If you try to power through it, you'll simply fatigue and your body will try to compensate for it. And now you're learning bad form.
Many sports players also talk about mental practice. A baseball player might think about connecting with the bat. What it looks like as the pitch comes in, when he swings, or when not to.
Think about what a proper shot looks like in your mind. First acquire your natural point of aim. Go through the exercise to get your natural resting breath. See the sight picture, and proper sight alignment. What does your body look like, how does it feel? Think about the trigger press. Hear and feel the shot break, and the proper follow through. Call your shot, where did it break?
Go through the entire repetition in your mind, sitting in the comfort of your chair. You can shoot an entire match mentally. Dry firing disciplines your body. This exercise disciplines your mind.
Does this help?
I think dry firing exercises will help....others have recommended it. I'll tape a dime to my basement wall, go through the firing routine, working on form, sight picture, trigger control, breathing, breaking the shot, follow through. I can probably do this a few times a week after work, undisturbed. Yesterday I was calling my shots, and sure enough, I knew when they were in the 7 ring.
chrome_austex
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The fundamentals of offhand are: sight picture, sight picture, stable hold by any means necessary, and sight picture.
Simply don't accept a shot that isn't well aimed. Do this by not applying pressure to the trigger if sight picture isn't perfect. You don't have to back off, but don't increase pressure. Take your time. Relax and experiement until you find a hold and stance that's stable, but don't expect miracles. Mind the buttstock is consistently placed on your shoulder the same way every time as to recoil consistently, and know your zeros.
Is that worth 2c?
Edit: Some say dryfiring is as-good or better than live fire practice. In dryfire, you don't have to miss, which helps set expectations for success. It is, however, less exciting. The people I know of who make the fastest progress also dryfire.
Simply don't accept a shot that isn't well aimed. Do this by not applying pressure to the trigger if sight picture isn't perfect. You don't have to back off, but don't increase pressure. Take your time. Relax and experiement until you find a hold and stance that's stable, but don't expect miracles. Mind the buttstock is consistently placed on your shoulder the same way every time as to recoil consistently, and know your zeros.
Is that worth 2c?
Edit: Some say dryfiring is as-good or better than live fire practice. In dryfire, you don't have to miss, which helps set expectations for success. It is, however, less exciting. The people I know of who make the fastest progress also dryfire.
Last edited:
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
If you need some good, formal instruction on technique, I can point you here.
A 15 minute video - U.S. Marine Corps Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship, 1999
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvW-0zUghTk
A 15 minute video - U.S. Marine Corps Fundamentals of Rifle Marksmanship, 1999
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvW-0zUghTk
skidooman603
Member
Read G David Tubbs Highpower Books and Lanny Basham With Winning in Mind.
As far as training, I do an Off Hand dry fire exercise that seems to be helping. Like mentioned above I put a .5in x.5in. sticker on the wall 30 or so ft away. With full gear on I establish my NPA and break the shot...then hold the rifle in position for 3 min. Not only does it train your off hand specific muscles but holding steady for 7-9 seconds during live fire seems like a breeze. By the way I have my AR up to almost 13lb so it is a little harder than it sounds to hold steady for 3 min. Helped me and hopefully will give you some help..Gary
As far as training, I do an Off Hand dry fire exercise that seems to be helping. Like mentioned above I put a .5in x.5in. sticker on the wall 30 or so ft away. With full gear on I establish my NPA and break the shot...then hold the rifle in position for 3 min. Not only does it train your off hand specific muscles but holding steady for 7-9 seconds during live fire seems like a breeze. By the way I have my AR up to almost 13lb so it is a little harder than it sounds to hold steady for 3 min. Helped me and hopefully will give you some help..Gary
Good books
Practice with an air rifle or a 22. Often.
Ken's got good advice there
and smallbore is great practice too
of course, my best standing scores were in the 93-94 range
to even accomplish that, i really had to focus on getting a good NPA, and running through a mental ritual where i would relax muscles one by one. otherwise, i would find myself bouncing around because my face was squinting in the sun, or my shoulder was tensed up or something. eventually, you're "laying down" in your shooting jacket.
and smallbore is great practice too
of course, my best standing scores were in the 93-94 range
to even accomplish that, i really had to focus on getting a good NPA, and running through a mental ritual where i would relax muscles one by one. otherwise, i would find myself bouncing around because my face was squinting in the sun, or my shoulder was tensed up or something. eventually, you're "laying down" in your shooting jacket.
Lovesbeer99
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I bought a Daisy 853, low velocity but very accurate, air rifle and I set up a 20 ft range in the basement. My scores have increase a lot.
Anyway, check out Jim Owens at Jarheadtop.com. He has some video classes that might help. Other than that maybe some personal instruction might be the best thing for you.
Anyway, check out Jim Owens at Jarheadtop.com. He has some video classes that might help. Other than that maybe some personal instruction might be the best thing for you.
I think dry fire with my AR, practice with my Mossberg .22, and some personal coaching from a friend of mine (he coaches the club's Jr. team) would be the ideal way to improve. I was looking for some reading material because I think I need to re-focus on the fundamentals. What's bothering me is that my offhand score is slipping. Last year I was shooting as high as 188 (but more often around 180). Now I'm hovering around 170-171. Tough to post a good final score when I start the match like that.
Lovesbeer99
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Here is 1 piece of advise that's super simple but has always helped me.
"If you have a good shot take it. Dont blow a good shot trying to make a perfect shot"
If you look back in you mind you already know the fundamentals all too well. You don't need a book, you just need 2 or 3 trips to the range to remember them. Don't judge your shots good or bad just focus on how they happened. Repeat the good shots and learn from your mistakes on the bad shots.
By the way, try taking off your shooting jacket and glove for practice. then adjust your sights so that you have to hold off a little. It really puts things in perspective. This might also help return you to the basics and help rebuild your confidence. Nothing like holding off 6" right and 4" high to remind you of your marksmenship skills especially when you're not wearing a jacket. Your groups might be larger but they should still be groups. It they are not groups you should keep trying.
Good luck.
"If you have a good shot take it. Dont blow a good shot trying to make a perfect shot"
If you look back in you mind you already know the fundamentals all too well. You don't need a book, you just need 2 or 3 trips to the range to remember them. Don't judge your shots good or bad just focus on how they happened. Repeat the good shots and learn from your mistakes on the bad shots.
By the way, try taking off your shooting jacket and glove for practice. then adjust your sights so that you have to hold off a little. It really puts things in perspective. This might also help return you to the basics and help rebuild your confidence. Nothing like holding off 6" right and 4" high to remind you of your marksmenship skills especially when you're not wearing a jacket. Your groups might be larger but they should still be groups. It they are not groups you should keep trying.
Good luck.
Hangingrock
Member
There is a lot of truth to that statement!
dardascastbullets
Member
Hi Pat,
There are many good suggestions posted but the one element that will make you realize higher scores is range time with a lot of quality rounds down range. Keeping a written record of your results (not just groups and/or scores) will improve your outcome. It is important to drill repetitiveness into your mind and body. Shooting high scores requires the subliminal mind to take control. This is only possible through regular training. Weekend shooting will not produce the results that you are seeking.
Write down what you wish to accomplish on an index card. Keep reading it - it is your goal and your commitment. Make new goals as you move up the ladder. And as always, make sure that you are shooting with the very best that you can afford!
Good luck! And if you have any questions please do call me I will be glad to help you. I am an old high master from a long time ago.
There are many good suggestions posted but the one element that will make you realize higher scores is range time with a lot of quality rounds down range. Keeping a written record of your results (not just groups and/or scores) will improve your outcome. It is important to drill repetitiveness into your mind and body. Shooting high scores requires the subliminal mind to take control. This is only possible through regular training. Weekend shooting will not produce the results that you are seeking.
Write down what you wish to accomplish on an index card. Keep reading it - it is your goal and your commitment. Make new goals as you move up the ladder. And as always, make sure that you are shooting with the very best that you can afford!
Good luck! And if you have any questions please do call me I will be glad to help you. I am an old high master from a long time ago.
westerngrizzly
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I rarely go on this forum any more but I was just browsing today and found this and wanted to lend a helping hand.
I used to shoot highpower on the California Grzzlies rifle team (yes I was on the team that won rattle battle in 2009). And now I shoot ISSF/USAS and NRA smallbore and Air rifle. After switching over to smallbore I relized how crappy of a highpower shooter I was. Smallbore is VERY difficult. (the ISSF ten ring is 10.4mm at 50 Meters. this is .4 inches at 50 meters). So keep in mind that what I am going to say is mostly regarding smallbore, but highpower shooters can benefit greatly from what you learn in smallbore.
The first thing I have to say is that 99% of people in highpower shoot a crappy standing position. Look up and down a highpower line and count how many people have a position that allows them to have their elbow on there hip. And I mean ON the hip. Almost none do. You should do your best to build a position that has these elements.
1. Relaxed left arm.(push the hip out far so you can rest the elbow on it)
2. Relaxed left hand and wrist.
3.The hips should be at a 90 degree angle to the target. (David Tubb doesn't shoot this way) If you open the hips up you get more lateral movement.
4. Legs straight but not locked.
5. Feet about shoulder width apart. This is a lose rule. If you cant get the elevation needed feel free to open them.
6.relaxed neck. (Canting the rifle helps)
7.Relaxed right shoulder!!!! I cannot stress this enough.
8.Relaxed right arm (except the hand).
9.Weight should be in the center of the feet. You shouldn't feel like you are going to fall over in either direction.
In standing trigger control is HUGE!! You should have a good (Geissele) trigger set to about 4.75 lbs with about 3lbs in the first stage. So that leaves 1.75 lbs in the second.
The way I control the trigger is like this: As I relax and exhale into my npa (coming from the top) i take up the first stage. As my sights fall onto the target I increase the weight on the second stage until I have taken up about 80% of the weight. During this time I am waiting for my hold to slow down and (somtimes) stop in the center. I then increase the weight just a hair and the shot goes off and I watch the recoil go up and back down and wait for it to settle.
In sitting (you should be averaging a 198-200 in sitting) the biggest thing is NPA and trigger control. You need to find a tight position that allows your NPA to be in the center of the target for ten shots. I dont have much advice because everyone is different. So just play around with it and tweak things until you have a tight hold.(an X ring hold wouldn't be too hard to do if you worked on it).
For trigger control you should take up the first stage and sit on the second stage and squeeze off nice clean shots. Follow through on the trigger and let off until you hear/feel the trigger reset and start over.
Rapid prone is mostly wind reading and sight picture/trigger control. You should have a position that allows your hold (while you are COMPLETELY relaxed) to be sub-X ring.
600 is a wind reading game. But you must have a good hold and be able to shoot center shots to be at all good. (that being said my best 600 prone is a 195. It would have been a 198 but my scorer lost track of my shots and I shot a 7 after he interrupted me. I dont blame him for it though.)
To work on your hold in prone you should train on the 100 Yard reduced target (MR 31 I believe). It is a tough target for a service rifle.
I hope this helps,
Matt C.
I used to shoot highpower on the California Grzzlies rifle team (yes I was on the team that won rattle battle in 2009). And now I shoot ISSF/USAS and NRA smallbore and Air rifle. After switching over to smallbore I relized how crappy of a highpower shooter I was. Smallbore is VERY difficult. (the ISSF ten ring is 10.4mm at 50 Meters. this is .4 inches at 50 meters). So keep in mind that what I am going to say is mostly regarding smallbore, but highpower shooters can benefit greatly from what you learn in smallbore.
The first thing I have to say is that 99% of people in highpower shoot a crappy standing position. Look up and down a highpower line and count how many people have a position that allows them to have their elbow on there hip. And I mean ON the hip. Almost none do. You should do your best to build a position that has these elements.
1. Relaxed left arm.(push the hip out far so you can rest the elbow on it)
2. Relaxed left hand and wrist.
3.The hips should be at a 90 degree angle to the target. (David Tubb doesn't shoot this way) If you open the hips up you get more lateral movement.
4. Legs straight but not locked.
5. Feet about shoulder width apart. This is a lose rule. If you cant get the elevation needed feel free to open them.
6.relaxed neck. (Canting the rifle helps)
7.Relaxed right shoulder!!!! I cannot stress this enough.
8.Relaxed right arm (except the hand).
9.Weight should be in the center of the feet. You shouldn't feel like you are going to fall over in either direction.
In standing trigger control is HUGE!! You should have a good (Geissele) trigger set to about 4.75 lbs with about 3lbs in the first stage. So that leaves 1.75 lbs in the second.
The way I control the trigger is like this: As I relax and exhale into my npa (coming from the top) i take up the first stage. As my sights fall onto the target I increase the weight on the second stage until I have taken up about 80% of the weight. During this time I am waiting for my hold to slow down and (somtimes) stop in the center. I then increase the weight just a hair and the shot goes off and I watch the recoil go up and back down and wait for it to settle.
In sitting (you should be averaging a 198-200 in sitting) the biggest thing is NPA and trigger control. You need to find a tight position that allows your NPA to be in the center of the target for ten shots. I dont have much advice because everyone is different. So just play around with it and tweak things until you have a tight hold.(an X ring hold wouldn't be too hard to do if you worked on it).
For trigger control you should take up the first stage and sit on the second stage and squeeze off nice clean shots. Follow through on the trigger and let off until you hear/feel the trigger reset and start over.
Rapid prone is mostly wind reading and sight picture/trigger control. You should have a position that allows your hold (while you are COMPLETELY relaxed) to be sub-X ring.
600 is a wind reading game. But you must have a good hold and be able to shoot center shots to be at all good. (that being said my best 600 prone is a 195. It would have been a 198 but my scorer lost track of my shots and I shot a 7 after he interrupted me. I dont blame him for it though.)
To work on your hold in prone you should train on the 100 Yard reduced target (MR 31 I believe). It is a tough target for a service rifle.
I hope this helps,
Matt C.
Buy an air rifle and practice standing. You cannot get better without practice.
As stated before, small bore is extremely difficult and will make you a better highpower shooter.
You don't have the recoil or the noise to mask your errors. The darn bullet is still in the barrel after trigger break, errors in follow through and trigger jerking really show up on target. So do positional errors.
I have been shooting small bore prone and it has really improved my prone scores.
If you can wind read and your position has been improved with small bore, you will shoot HM scores at 600 yards.
With a bit of luck.
As stated before, small bore is extremely difficult and will make you a better highpower shooter.
You don't have the recoil or the noise to mask your errors. The darn bullet is still in the barrel after trigger break, errors in follow through and trigger jerking really show up on target. So do positional errors.
I have been shooting small bore prone and it has really improved my prone scores.
If you can wind read and your position has been improved with small bore, you will shoot HM scores at 600 yards.
With a bit of luck.
You guys are giving great advice. I am going to print Westerngrizzly's post. Peyton also hit on a good one. I've been shooting in a cloth coat simply because in the first year I bought the mat, glove, sling, mags.....second year a White Oak upper and match trigger, last year a spotting scope and stand. When I have the extra cash I'll invest in a Creedmore hard back jacket.
westerngrizzly
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I have a Creedmoor canvas jacket, Hardback heavy, and a Freeland international jacket. If the three I much prefer the Freeland (I have a Monard standard on order). The hardback heavy doesnt allow you to get a position with your hips out. It limits you to a fairly upright position because of how stiff it is.
Also look at the Freeland light coat.
Matt
Also look at the Freeland light coat.
Matt
Hangingrock
Member
Some shooters suffer from “Paralysis of Analysis” at some point you have to shoot thus experience.
wanderinwalker
Member
All right, another "you don't need a Hardback" shooter! That makes my day right there. Thank you sir. (For the record, I have a Freeland heavy-canvas coat, and I started with the light canvas model and shot a few good offhand scores with that one.)
To the OP, to improve your scores, shoot more, and focus on what you are doing harder. It's better to practice making 10 GOOD offhand shots than 20 so-so ones. Remember the only thing that matters is the front sight and trigger squeeze. Don't think, don't over-analyze it (I know, very hard to do), your subconscious knows what needs to be done. Let it work.
I shot smallbore all winter and have noticed a marked improvement in my prone scores, consistently. Unfortunately I slipped backward offhand and sitting so I am still shooting about where I was last season. Smallbore and air rifle are much more demanding than Highpower in my experience. A good Highpower shooter makes a mediocre Smallbore shooter.
Oh, don't dwell on the bad shots and beat yourself up over them. Focus on the good ones and remember what you did to make them. Focus on repeating that procedure. It's as much of a mental game as a physical one many days.
The last thing I will mention is that I do think physical conditioning is important. I don't think it will make or break your game, but late on a long day of sitting in the sun, pulling targets, marching up and down the Viale desert, etc, being conditioned to some kind of exercise won't hurt. I ride bicycles all summer long, maybe more than I shoot, and I am positive it made an improvement in my ability to withstand long days on the range without wilting.
Hope some of this helps and good luck and good shooting!
Nate
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