"Improving" the 1911

[wally]

We've all seen non-improvements by companies that think they know better, things like external extractors, DA operation, contraptions to lower the hammer so it don't look so scarry (like the Browning SFS system), front slide serations, etc.

But the one thing I do wonder about on the 1911 is why does the thumb safety block the slide from moving when applied?

Seems to me this could be a real safety enhancing feature that doesn't muck anything else up, but then I could be wrong!

I've two guns I can think of off hand, that will do cocked and locked and you can rack the slide to load or unload with the thumb safety applied -- EAA Witness and Beretta 9000S. I like this featue, especailly for my wiife who struggles to rack the slide.

Discussion?

--wally.

 

[1911 guy]

I've got a theory, but it might be dead wrong.

I'm just thinking of how the hammer, sear, trigger and disconnector are all in close proximity to the safety, just foreward of the hammer pin. Could moving the slide push around the disconnector, thereby moving the sear, then the hammer, causing an AD?

I don't really know, I'll wait for 1911Tuner or OldFuff to educate me / us.

 

[XavierBreath]

The thumb safety, when engaged, blocks the sear to keep the pistol from firing.

It blocks the slide when engaged to make reassembly easier when you get to the step of compressing the recoil spring/plug, and turning the bushing.

 

[10-Ring]

I think that really the simplicity in the 1911 design is part of why it has endured. Apply thumb safety, block slide, lock up gun, gun doesn't fire - GOOD

 

[wally]

It blocks the slide when engaged to make reassembly easier when you get to the step of compressing the recoil spring/plug, and turning the bushing.

I seriously doubt this is the reason, I've never felt the need to apply the thumb safety in order to rotate the bushing after depressing the plunger, in fact if its fitted tight the bushing won't rotate until the slide has actually moved back a bit.

I forgot to mention full length guide rods as another dubious "improvement" . I do hope OldFuff or 1911Tuner replies with the straight poop.

--wally.

 

[1911 guy]

Wally, I bring to your attention...

The lack of the letter "L" in Old Fuff's name.

It was brought to my attention some time ago.

I'm checking periodically hoping to learn something.

 

[wally]

Oops, thanks. I hope to learn the answer too.

--wally.

 

[longeyes]

If someone is struggling to rack a slide, they may have the wrong gun. Just possible.

 

[Azrael256]

I can think of one real handy function of the slide blocking...

Notice how your 1911 has a pretty soft recoil spring? It doesn't take much to push it out of battery. Try jamming it in your IWB holster with the safety off. Do this with a snap cap so you can see how far it flies.

 

[BullfrogKen]

The Hi Power does it, too.

I've never thought it was much of an issue.

 

[Detritus]

in fact if its fitted tight the bushing won't rotate until the slide has actually moved back a bit.

are you sure you;re not thinking of the 1911s colt made (and may still) that for some reason had a collet style bushing? THOSE needed the slide slightly pushed back to rotate the bushing. most every other non target 1911 i've messed with had no such condition.

And while the thumb safety was a later addition (cavalry afficers wanted an additional positive safety beyound the grip safety) to the gun, it engages the slide for a reason. there are times when holding the slide forward is a good thing, reholstering and dis/re-assembly being the ones that come to my mind easiest.

 

[Old Fuff]

Fortunately the Ol Fluf... I mean Fuff... is here.

Azrael256 wins the prize...

In earlier designs, such as the model 1903 Pocket Pistol and 1908 Vest Pocket Pistol, Browning had used a manual safety that also locked the slide into battery. His so-called military models with exposed hammers did not have manual safeties, and he was dead-set against putting one on his future 1911 .45 until four months before it was adopted. As has been noted, the Army insisted. After being pushed (forced??) in this direction he also added the feature of locking the slide into battery when the "safety lock" was engaged. It is true that it also makes it easier to keep the slide in place while turning the barrel bushing - but it wasn't what Browing had in mind, and it's better to be able to retract the slide a bit if your new pistol is fitted with a tight match bushing. Now days one needs a wench... no, I mean wrench to turn the bushing on many guns.

Obviously JMB did not have Condition One (Cocked & Locked) carry in mind. Jeff Cooper pushed us into that mode.

 

[Zach S]

Another good thing about it is that if the pistol isnt in proper operating condition (say for example, you decided to try installing a new thumbsafety), and its capable of firing with the safety engaged, it will keep the slide from cycling another round into the chamber.

For the record, I did function check the unloaded pistol after installing that safety, and after re-installing the old safety that worked...

 

[wally]

Hmm.. if cocked and locked was not the original design plan for carry what was? chamber empty? Hammer down on a loaded round?

If someone is struggling to rack a slide, they may have the wrong gun.

Easy for you to say, but I bet you are not 5'2" 105lbs. Or wait to you get old and the arthritus starts acting up

--wally.

 

[1911Tuner]

Why ask Why

Azrael noted:

>Notice how your 1911 has a pretty soft recoil spring? It doesn't take much to push it out of battery. Try jamming it in your IWB holster with the safety off. Do this with a snap cap so you can see how far it flies.<
***********

Quite correct, sir.

 

[crucible]

Of all the 'improvements' that could be incorporated into the platform, changing the safeties is not one of them. IMO, multiple, manual safeties that include locking the slide is one of the primary strengths of the 1911 platform over others.

(And FWIW, I'm not an original design nazi here opposed to everything not put on it in 1916. As an example, I also beleive the SFS can provide additional safety on a series 70 1911 as it adds a nicely designed firing pin safety in the assembly, and can allow for a quick safety check that isn't there otherwise....but that's another subject.)

C-

 

[Old Fuff]

Hmm.. if cocked and locked was not the original design plan for carry what was? chamber empty? Hammer down on a loaded round?

Well thiis gets a lot of folks upset today, but Browning's game plan was to carry his pistols with exposed hammers with the hammer down on a loaded chamber - safe enough he said considering his firing pin design - and thumb-cock the hammer for the first shot, or carry with the magazine loaded, chamber empty, and hammer down. Cycle the slide for the first shot. He wasn't particularly concerned about a fast draw from the leather considering that the pistol was usually carried in a full-flap holster and buttoned down.

Of course this is out of step with current thinking, but Browning saw things from an early 20th century perspective. When the 1911 was intorduced many users ignored the safety lock and continued to carry in the time honored ways. Some continued to do so even after World War Two.

Or wait to you get old and the arthritus starts acting up

Yes indeed. Da' Fuff knows...

Now I have to go - I think there's a mob at the front door with tar and feathers...

 

[wally]

Good info, but it still doesn't answer the question of why the thumb safety blocks the slide. We've had a couple of reasonable guesses, but these don't suggest the gun needs to be made this way.

As to reholstering, I've no trouble slipping the EAA into a thumb-break holster with the safety on, cocked and locked, the slide moves a little on the way in, but it never gets close to doing anything more that the equivalent of a "press check".

--wally.

 

[1911Tuner]

Guesses?

Wally...Guesses? No!

When the 1911 was adopted, it was to be deployed for the most part, as a cavalry weapon, and it was headed for some pretty nasty environs.

In the course of a melee, it may have been necessary for a horse soldier to
reholster so that he could regain control of a spooked horse...render aid to a fallen comrade...or any number of secondary duties before having to return to
the business at hand. Namely, shooting at the enemy and trying to stay alive...with the latter very likely being his first priority.

Jamming a pistol back into a full coverage, military holster can easily force the gun out of battery, which disconnects the disconnect, and prevents it from firing...and under such horrid conditions, it was shown to be very likely
that the gun wouldn't instantly return to battery upon pulling it out of the holster and possibly having to fire instantly in order to stay alive. No...it wasn't a consistent thing, and it wasn't a design flaw. It was one of those
possibilities that was noticed during the exhaustive trials, and rather than a simple manual safety, it was also requested that the manual safety lock the slide as well as the sear. That's why it was sometimes referred to as a
"Slidelock Safety."

 

[Old Fuff]

Very few of the 1911's many fans take the time to study the history (as opposed to the mechanics) of the design, or the pistols that preceeded it. Browning did not sit down one day and out of the blue make a drawing and say, "This is it!!"

Instead, over a period of 10 years - 6 years working on a .45 alone - he worked with Colt who built prototypes which the Army tested. Following each trial reports were issued that documented the good and bad points. Following this Browning came up with yet another improved prototype and the cycle repeated itself.

By reading the reports, some of which are quite detailed, and looking at the various prototypes the story emerges, and it becomes clear why certain things came about, and why.

Both Tuner and I have done our homework, and therefore know why things happened, and the way they did.

Sometimes ya' just got'ta have faith - or spend a lot of money on research books.

 

[1911Tuner]

Fuff Stuff

+1 Fuff...

The problem with the 1911 is that it's been so long ago that it burst onto the scene, most people don't think to consider what it was designed for and where it was destined to go. It was ultimately headed for the trenches, since that was pretty much the SOP of the day...and it had to function wherever and in whatever environment a given trench would be dug. Simply put...The gun was designed to go to war. There was no thought of civilian carry under a warm coat in a clean paddle holster, and there was no thought of speed rigs and IPSC. War. Unless you've seen it, you can't imagine just how filthy it can get.

There were very sound reasons for everything that was on the gun. Those reasons aren't always apparent to the casual observer. Some of us study them in an attempt to determine what the designer was thinking about, while others are lucky enough to have read some very old transcripts of the original tests. Some of us have done both.

 

[SoCalShooter]

The model 1911 is the perfect handgun, 'nuff said'

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Lookin' back on all this...I gotta ask why it's such an issue that the safety locks the slide. Because it's not safe to clear? Don't touch the trigger.
That usually does the trick for me.

 

[alumltd]

I like the thumb safety "as is"!

Interestingly enough, I'd done an experiment early this year using "powder puff" loads with as little as .5gr of Bullseye behind an H&G68 200gr SWC.

With that configuration, rearward slide movement is not sufficient to allow hammer to get to "half cock" position. As you may imagine, recoil was a shade over "0", report was minimal, & bullets did not penetrate cardboard @ 7 yards.

I would have like to have had the option of "slide lock" without thumb safety being "on" (a "single shot auto... ha!), but alas... that is not to be and OK by me since I need not try further!

 

[SoCalShooter]

alumltd : I am surprised with that load that you got the bullet out of the barrel. I like the 1911 just the way it is, keep your finger off the trigger and you should have no troubles.