In need of suggestions for 30-30 “Miniature” bullets

Copy pasta from a Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/2jc8nt
"Everyone knows that putting spitzer bullets into a tubular magazine is just asking for missing fingers, right? Wrong. As the linked article demonstrates, the likelihood of a detonation in a tubular magazine due to a bullet striking a primer under recoil is extremely low. Additionally, even if a detonation were to occur, the worst that would happen would be a bit of noise and smoke. No one is losing any fingers.

During the first half of the experiment, Ballou was unable to produce a detonation with flat point or rounded bullets, but was in fact able to detonate a primer using a spitzer bullet. However, it should also be noted that this was under "beyond-worst-case" (Ballou, 2001, p. 73) conditions. A 2 pound ball peen hammer generates far more force than a cartridge will experience under recoil in a magazine tube. Bear in mind that even under these conditions, it took the author 5 attempts to set off the primer due to the lead of the soft point absorbing the blow. Ballou states that he did not attempt the experiment with a FMJ bullet, asserting that "The results with the jacketed spitzer bullet indicate that a pointed FMJ bullet would have probably fired the primer on the first whack" (Ballou, 2001, p. 73).

What can we gather from this portion of his experiment? Pointed FMJ bullets may be a bad idea (more on the "may" part of that later) but primer detonations are extremely unlikely with any other bullet design, including spitzer soft points.

During the second half of the experiment, Ballou discovers something that makes the above detonations even more unlikely. This is the fact that the preceding bullet is not fully resting on the primer of the cartridge in front of it, if even at all. Ballou (2001) states that "This makes sense, as virtually all cartridges used in the tubular magazine are tapered to a certain extent or have a pronounced rim, or both, causing them to generally lay at the slight angle when loaded in the magazine" (p. 74). He further states that "In the case of flat-point bullets that have a meplat (nose) that's almost as large in diameter as the primer, probably the bullet's nose will be largely supported by the case itself. This fact alone adds greatly to the safety of the tubular magazine concept" (Ballou, 2001, p. 74). The above observations, in my opinion, also contribute to the safety of pointed FMJ bullets in a magazine tube, hence my statement earlier that they may be a bad idea. I am not ambitious enough to attempt the author's experiment for myself and find out, so we will have to guess.

The main point of the second half of Ballou's experiment was to demonstrate that even in the extremely unlikely case of a detonation, not only is there not going to be a chain reaction that sets off every cartridge in the tube, but there is not any danger to the shooter should a single cartridge detonate. When he forces a detonation, he describes the results thusly:

First, there was a report about equal in loudness to a child's

cap gun, followed by a small amount of smoke drifting out

from under the bucket. Waiting a few minutes, I carefully

removed the magazine's end plug and slid the contents out.

Two cartridges, sooty on the outside and with their bullets

telescoped back part way into the cases, were followed by

the virtually undamaged bullet of the first cartridge, a lot of

unburned powder, and finally the cartridge's case, ruptured

for about half of its length. The device, however, was fully

intact and undamaged. (Ballou, 2001, p. 74)

What can we conclude from the second half of Ballou's experiment? Mostly that in the unlikely event of a magazine detonation, "the real danger to the shooter would be from escaping gas" (Ballou, 2001, p. 75) which is just another reason to always wear eye protection while shooting.

In conclusion, I think that this article (which I had to buy in order to read by the way) puts to rest any worry on tubular magazine detonations. The risk of detonation, even with pointed bullets, is very minimal, and should a detonation occur against all odds, no one is going to be losing any fingers. A recoil impulse simply does not generate enough force to set off a primer, and a cartridge detonation in a loose "chamber" is not very dangerous. Whether or not pointed bullets in a cartridge such as .30-30 that is only useful out to a few hundred yards are even worth using is a debate for another day, but should someone choose to load them no one is going to be making a trip to the hospital."

No thanks. I'll stick with RN/FN for 30-30 and other lever rifles. Call me chicken, don't care. No guinea pig stuff on my part.
 

I bet those would make a varmint inside-out
 
This type of thing that I purchased and use the Lee FCD. The collet crimp will make a good crimp in a non standard bullet where you need it. Also I have a tabletop disk grinder and made a jig that will grind a minimal flat point on a bullet so as to be able to use it in a 30-30.
 
I use the Acme 135 grain 30 caliber round nose flat point. I push them with somewhere near 6 grains of W231. It's a hair under that but that's what I've found shoots best from my rifle. I think I tested 5.3 to 6.1 grains. I also found large pistol primers will work too.
 
I use the Acme 135 grain 30 caliber round nose flat point. I push them with somewhere near 6 grains of W231. It's a hair under that but that's what I've found shoots best from my rifle. I think I tested 5.3 to 6.1 grains. I also found large pistol primers will work too.
Will Acme sell unsized bullets? I need at least .310-.311 for my Marlin.
 
No, they only sell coated bullets as far as I know. Measured they're 0.3095". I shoot them from my Marlin. I had a terrible time with leading when I tried Alliant 2400 powder, but I think I was using way too much. With the half dozen or so grains of W231 they shoot with no leading I can find. They also shoot just as well or maybe a shade better when pushed by H335 rifle powder at about 16 grains. Thats a more expensive load but they're going faster too. No leading either way.

Missouri Bullet Company has a 135-grain bullet sized at 0.311" for Marlins, but for such low powder charges/pressures as I use, they haven't been necessary. I tried the 165-grain White Tail #4 from MBC and it seems to shoot as good as the Acme bullets with considerably more punch and higher velocity at around 15 grains of H335. There is a thread on here with load data for reduced 30-30 loads. That's where I got the loads with H335. I found the Miniature and Short Range loads on the Marlin Owners forum. Acme is cheaper than MBC, but they don't size to the larger diameter. Both 135-grain offerings have crimp grooves. Rocky Mountain Reloading also has jacketed 110 grain FMJ bullets for sale if you wanted to make the Short Range version. I haven't tried that. I still have plenty of the cast bullets from Acme and MBC. I had some Hornady 110 grain FMJ bullets from Hornady, but they all went to full power loads with ~34 grains of H335.
 
Will Acme sell unsized bullets? I need at least .310-.311 for my Marlin.

Don't know about ACME, but these guys may have the bullet for you:


@DMW1116 already stated the company, just adding the link.....
 
Update on my progress:

I had a few days I couldn’t work up anything, but I have found what I think is a suitable bullet in my collection. I have about 250 Cast Performance .312” 95 gr plain base Lead Flat Nose bullets that are Brinnel 18-21. I checked them in the neck of my rifle with a borescope, and they fit fine, so I made up five to test. They seemed to work fine, and were pretty accurate. I didn’t run them across the chronograph since I was only testing for function, but I estimate somewhere around 1000-1100 fps based on GRT.

Now for another question. My bore slugs at .310”, and these fit pretty snugly, so what velocity might I be able to push these to? I don’t think I’d want anything more than about 1400 fps at the most, but would like to have something around 1200 fps to replicate 32-20 loads. What do you guys think?
 
Update on my progress:

I had a few days I couldn’t work up anything, but I have found what I think is a suitable bullet in my collection. I have about 250 Cast Performance .312” 95 gr plain base Lead Flat Nose bullets that are Brinnel 18-21. I checked them in the neck of my rifle with a borescope, and they fit fine, so I made up five to test. They seemed to work fine, and were pretty accurate. I didn’t run them across the chronograph since I was only testing for function, but I estimate somewhere around 1000-1100 fps based on GRT.

Now for another question. My bore slugs at .310”, and these fit pretty snugly, so what velocity might I be able to push these to? I don’t think I’d want anything more than about 1400 fps at the most, but would like to have something around 1200 fps to replicate 32-20 loads. What do you guys think?
I really like the CP bullets for .32-20 revolvers. If they are stabilizing in your rifles barrel then they are long enough for the rifling. That’s the real limit: how fast can you spin them before they come apart and how slow before they wobble and tumble? Those bullets work great in my .32-20 revolvers and in the 6” Official Police will make around 950fps with 4-1/2gr of Unique. IIRC the OP in .32WCF uses a 1:16” twist.

I think they will work fine up to 1600fps if you decide to push that hard but 1200 sounds like a lot of fun.
 
What powder?
My first run I used 4 grains of Unique, but I was thinking that at that low a charge that Bullseye, 231, or Titegroup might work well too. GRT doesn‘t go down that far with that bullet and Unique, so I estimated what I thought the velocity might be, but it will do subsonic loads with Bullseye and Titegroup. Pressures for all would probably be around 8,000 psi or so.
 
My first run I used 4 grains of Unique, but I was thinking that at that low a charge that Bullseye, 231, or Titegroup might work well too. GRT doesn‘t go down that far with that bullet and Unique, so I estimated what I thought the velocity might be, but it will do subsonic loads with Bullseye and Titegroup. Pressures for all would probably be around 8,000 psi or so.
Would you like to see the Ideal rifle data from 1955? They were still being made back then. Ideal gave a suggested load of 13.0 gr of Unique with a 125gr plain base cast in the .30-30 and .30Remington.
 
My first run I used 4 grains of Unique, but I was thinking that at that low a charge that Bullseye, 231, or Titegroup might work well too. GRT doesn‘t go down that far with that bullet and Unique, so I estimated what I thought the velocity might be, but it will do subsonic loads with Bullseye and Titegroup. Pressures for all would probably be around 8,000 psi or so.
I use 231 but I’m just guessing in velocity. I think it’s down around 1200. They shoot pretty well. I’m nearly out. I might try some 110 grain either cast or jacketed when I run out. It will be a while though as I have about 200 of the 165 grain MBC bullets.
ADC6E13D-1D07-4ACA-9B13-8E9B9E6B8AFD.jpeg
 
Would you like to see the Ideal rifle data from 1955? They were still being made back then. Ideal gave a suggested load of 13.0 gr of Unique with a 125gr plain base cast in the .30-30 and .30Remington.
I never even thought of that. I have Ideal #40 from 1955. I’ll look it up.

… I just looked it up, and it looks like an 87 grain with 4 grains of Unique is 1100 fps. Mine is just 7 grains heavier, so it looks like I’m in the ballpark. It doesn’t say what length barrel though. I guess I’ll have to break out the chronograph and do some testing.
 
I never even thought of that. I have Ideal #40 from 1955. I’ll look it up.

… I just looked it up, and it looks like an 87 grain with 4 grains of Unique is 1100 fps. Mine is just 7 grains heavier, so it looks like I’m in the ballpark. It doesn’t say what length barrel though. I guess I’ll have to break out the chronograph and do some testing.
I use the Ideal No.40 quite a bit still. There’s some cast loads in there that just work well and went out of popularity because of the new designs (1960 or so ) of JSP’s for hunting. The previous generation of soft point jacketed rifle bullets left a lot to be desired.
 
One last update and then I’m done. After much simulation on GRT, I decided on 4.5 gr Titegroup to replicate 32-20 in my 30-30. They had an average velocity of 1256 fps with a SD of 17 fps on 18 rounds, and very accurate. I made up 20, but the .312“ bullets must be on the verge of being a little large because 2 of them failed to chamber. Nothing wrong, but maybe a little too fat. I’ll pull those later.
 
Back
Top