In Praise of Old Slabsides

[Sean Smith]

But for those who slam the Sig 220, Tanfoglio and CZ97....do so without merit.

Note that while the 1911 has been bashed on this thread, the models you cited have not.

The closest things I can find to "bashing" on my posts run something like this:

1. Langdon heavily customized the P220 that he used to win in CDP. Objective fact. Lots of 1911s in CDP are customized, too, but it is hard to argue the P220 is so much superior if it needed the exact same amount of work (or more) to compete as the 1911 did.
2. I don't think the CZ-97 was even mentioned at all. I wish it would come out in 10mm, though.
3. As for the Witness... I know of at least 2 'smiths who work on them who advised that the long-term durability of the platform drops of dramatically as you move to calibers beyond 9x19. One described even 10mm Witness guns as having "a 9mm lockup system," and squirrelly long-term durability as a result. This from guys who apparently liked the Witness guns overall (and I was calling them concerning doing a 10mm Witness custom job, no less).

But bear in mind that this concerns 100,000ish round counts in short periods of time with Major power factor ammo... not what most people would consider remotely "normal" use.

 

[MK11]

Perf: I just really like the Commander size. I love the way it handles and points, and I also like the aesthetics. No reason other than that.

 

[FJC]

I love the full sized gov't models, but the Commander just works better for me for concealed carry. THat extra .5 inches really does make a difference between a pistol that bangs against the seat every time I sit down, and one that doesn't.

That said, here's my carry Commander.

 

[Sean Smith]

Be fair, that's an extra 0.75.

 

[Jammer Six]

*Footnote: Typing this after a range session in which my Kimber Pro Carry broke my heart yet again. If I ever encounter a reliable, Commander-size 1911, I'll take this all back.

I found your mistake.

 

[BluesBear]

5" = Government
4¼" = Commander
____
¾" = difference.

 

[Quartus]

other outdated designs. There are simply better
mousetraps in this day and age.

A dumber argument against the 1911 cannot be found.

Ranks right down there with "GLOCKS ARE NEW, SO GLOCKS ARE BAD!"




But as for looking cool, how come you folks all have the wrong grips on your guns?


HERE'S the way 1911 grips are supposed to be cut:

Yah, dat's my Sistema. Those sights have got to go.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

MEU(SOC) Pistol

Tamara,

A little clarification here. The only Marines and Sailors who use the Pistol, Caliber .45, MEU(SOC) are those in the Force Reconnaissance Platoons, and the Instructors at SOTG.
No one in the MEU, aside from that Force Plt. use the MEU(SOC) Pistol. No one in the Infantry Companies, LAV Platoon, Communicators and so on. If their job requires a pistol, it is the M9.

People get confused by the pistols name, and equate it with the entire MEU(SOC).
However, there are only a very few of these hand built pistols in the Marine Corps, and are used only for those Direct Action missions executed by the Force Plt's.

If i can get a few down days i'll finish off the SWAT article relative to this.
Of course, if i could get a few down days, i'd sleep....

 

[Quintin Likely]

<wiping drool off keyboard...must...have...stainless...Commander...>

I started off with handguns with a DA/SA Sig...then a "DAO" Glock...then a 1911. After the 1911, there ain't nothing else out there I can see. I'm hooked.

 

[Ankeny]

Sean:

I am a regular 1911 junkie and I prefer my single stacks over every other gun I have owned including some pretty fancy STI blasters. All I am saying is when people start talking about how great a 1911 is, they need to remember that the 1911 pistols in use by the top gunslingers today are a far cry from the 1911 pistol grandpa toted home after the war. Old slab sides in it's original form is trash compared to something like my Les Baer or Wilson combat. In fact, I would rather shoot a CZ than the original 1911.

FWIW, Sevigny shoots a pretty much stock Glock in Limited Division and in Production Division. The ranks of Master Class and up Limited shooters using a Glock are growing.

 

[Greg Bell]

"As usual, the 1911 bashers starting to crawl out from underneath their rocks. To hear them tell it, 1911's are unreliabe, oldfashoned, too big, yadayadayada. When I hear that stuff I look the person in the eye and ask them one simple question:"If what you're saying is true, why are they still around?" End of arument. The 1911 is still with us because,when used as intended, it works."


Lots of old crap is still around. End of "arument" (sic).

 

[dsk]

FJC-

Two questions:

1. Who did the work on your Commander? It looks really good. Similarly, where are the grips from?

2. Did you notice, are NRM Commanders using a standard-width chamber hood on the barrel, or is it narrow like on the Gov't-sized NRM Colts? If you don't know how to tell, maybe you can either snap a pic or e-mail me with a caliper measurement.

Thanks.

 

[Tamara]

Lots of old crap is still around.

Including many specious arguments from folks with minimal handgun exposure.

 

[Greg Bell]

Tam,

Look up the word specious . While your learning, look up ad hominem. Armed with the correct concepts your "aruments" will improve.

 

[Tamara]

Greg Bell,

Gosh, "specious" meant just what I thought it did.

As far as "ad hominem" goes, it would be more applicable if the personal characteristics attacked had no bearing on the argument at hand.

Believe it or not, some folks with very, very extensive experience with uberpistolen have somehow decided that they, personally, prefer these anachronistic "Pintos", such as the thread starter, who traded away a P7M8 to get the Series I Kimber in the above photos.

I'll bet Mr. Kloos would chime in with nothing but praise for the staple guns you enjoy so much (as would I), yet for some reason his considered choice of the 1911 rates nothing but scorn from you. It's sad to see some folks' ego wrapped up so tightly in their choice of sidearm...

 

[BluesBear]

Means what I thought it did too.
Seems apropos as well.


Main Entry: spe·cious
Pronunciation: 'spE-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, visually pleasing, from Latin speciosus beautiful, plausible, from species
Date: 1513
1 obsolete : SHOWY
2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness : SOPHISTIC



As for me (not that I believe for one moment that anyone here gives a rat's buttocks for any of my opinions) I have owned over 200 hanguns in my life.
I have, based on years of personal experience and by keeping an open mind and listening to the opinions of others, finally realized what works best for me. And what works best for me will not be the best for everyone else. If there was truely only one perfect gun or one perfect ammunition loading then no one would be buying the rest.

Look around, is everyone else driving the same car you do? Are you driving your dream car? Do you drive down the road yelling at strangers that they are driving the wrong cars?


I really, honestly and truely, could not care less what any of you carry to protect your assets. I do however hope and pray that if you ever have to rely on your choice, that you have chosen wisely and prepared yourself properly.

I'll gladly try the "next big thing" that comes down the pike. I have always looked for something better. What I now carry was not my first choice. I had to learn by experience.

But until I find something that instills more confidence in my ability to survive another day than a Colt .45 semi-automatic or a S&W N-Frame, I'll continue to stake my life on what suits me.

Y'all do what you gotta do. Just don't bust my bubble for what I do and I'll give you the same courtesy. And if we are ever face to face, agreeing to disagree and someone flings some manure against the ventilator, don't worry, I'll be more than prepared to handle my share. Happy Holidays to You & Yours. Peace & Safety in the New Year.

 

[Greg Bell]

Tamara,

“Gosh, "specious" meant just what I thought it did. “

Too bad, I preferred to think that you had simply forgotten the definition. Instead, you seem incapable of applying it correctly.

“As far as "ad hominem" goes, it would be more applicable if the personal characteristics attacked had no bearing on the argument at hand.â€

Wow, the dictionary didn’t help you with that one either. Simply put, even if I, as you said, had only limited experience with handguns, it would not make my argument more or less valid. Again, just because something is “still around’ doesn’t end the argument, it just means it is still around. I’m sorry if this is difficult for you.

"I'll bet Mr. Kloos would chime in with nothing but praise for the staple guns you enjoy so much (as would I), yet for some reason his considered choice of the 1911 rates nothing but scorn from you."

I am disappointed that you would try to drag Mr. Kloos into this. You can handle this yourself Tamara. Besides, I actually agree with every point of praise Mr. Kloos made in his thread-starting post.

“It's sad to see some folks' ego wrapped up so tightly in their choice of sidearmâ€


Yes, very sad…

 

[Ankeny]

While I am a staunch proponent of the 1911 and 2011 pistols, I also recognize that other pistols suit some shooters just as well if not better.

No matter what the gun, it boils down to the guy pulling the trigger. Suppose we had a USPSA match with Rob Leatham shooting his XD, Sevigny shooting his Glock, Grauffel shooting his Euro-Trash, Angus Hobdell blasting away with his CZ 75, Brian Enos shooting his old Smith, and (insert THR forum member here) shooting their 1911. Who do you suppose would come in last?

 

[Tamara]

Who do you suppose would come in last?

Why, me, of course! (Even if all the other five were shooting Hi-Points. )

 

[krept]

who traded away a P7M8 to get the Series I Kimber in the above photos.

ahhh... so I see...

musta been a tough wait for the holster, eh?

(and yes I'm JUST kidding)

cheers

 

[Airedale1]

As usual, the 1911 bashers starting to crawl out from underneath their rocks. by Geg bell

That's why ice cream comes in so many different flavors. Here are two of my favorite flavors.

 

[Quartus]

While your learning, look up...

While you are learning, look up the difference between "your" and "you're".



But I guess it's not surprising. "Old is bad! New is good"

 

[Sean Smith]

While your learning, look up ad hominem. Armed with the correct concepts your "aruments" will improve.

Don't play the grammar policeman if you yourself make sub-literate use of the English language.

 

[boogalou]

Including many specious arguments from folks with minimal handgun exposure.

Well I'm one of those guys with minimal handgun exposure, having shot semi-auto handguns on a regular basis for a little over two years now. Being the type of person that hates faddish behavior, I perhaps unfairly shied away from eurowonders such as Glocks, H-K's, and Sigs. Using a number of gun forums for information, I eventually went with CZ's, because they are great pistols for the money, and fit me well.

I knew about 1911's but considered them a old design with questionable reliability and to expensive. I also got a fair amount of amusement reading the 1911 vrs Glock/Sig arguments on the gunboards. I sometimes saw 1911 owners as a elitist bunch who looked down on anything that wasn't a 1911 and Eurogun owners as folks with a chip on their shoulder who had a magic sword mentality. After asking lots of questions and taking my Fathers advice, I bought a Sistema.

So now I pretty much agree with everything Marko said in his post. I have added a Mil-Spec and Series 70 to the stable and at least in my experience so far, I believe there is no better platform for the .45ACP.

I've also come to realize that Glocks, Sigs, etc, are also fine pistols and that what I like may not be the best for anyone else.

 

[Ankeny]

Basically, the discussion should be about how modern manufacturing technology, in concert with new design principles, has allowed the old JMB 1911 to evolve into one of (probably the) finest combat/competition handguns in the world. A quality 1911, properly fitted with the right parts, is an incredible piece of equipment. Of course, what we see today in the form of a Baer, Wilson, Kimber, SA Loaded, etc. used in competition today is indeed nothing like the 1911 of years gone by. The only thing in common with the old and the new is the basic principles of operation. Sean talked about how Ernest gutted the Sig he used to beat Leatham with at the IDPA Nationals. Compare the old 1911 with the new breed of 1911 and the terms "gutted" and "starting over" are more than appropriate.

Is the modern 1911 the undisputed King of The Hill in practical shooting? Of course it is and to argue otherwise is a waste of time. Have other designs come along that resulted in some simply awesome handguns? Why of course there are other guns that are truly great in their own niche, they cost less money than a 1911, they are as accurate, and they are as reliable. Furthermore, there are people who shoot pistols other than the 1911 and do very well head to head with the best gunslingers in the world.

From what I can see of this forum, precious few of the members have a clue as to what it takes to shoot a handgun fast and accurately. I say this because serious students of the sport rarely drift a thread into little more than a flame war complete with personal attacks.