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In support of a National FOID (Firearms Owner Identification Card)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Lost Sheep, Jan 17, 2013.

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  1. Lost Sheep

    Lost Sheep Member

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    Texan Scott. Thank you. You got it, and expressed it better than I have. If all 300 million of us are marked as qualified to own, then those who actually do own are more difficult to single out in the crowd.

    PBR Streetgang, yep. My idea is tantamount to a national ID. (Even if there were no card involved, but just an ID number to be accessed when purchasing a gun, an idea that evolved as I read these posts).

    And as JRWhit pointed out earlier, "Legislative Creep" would be an attractive path for those who would regulate other activites (e.g. what spirits we could buy). When the Social Security Numbers were first done, they were expressly prohibited from being used as an identification. It only took about 30 years for that rule to be bent.

    Having run through this wringer (and boy, am I sore) I will be better able to argue against benign-sounding "gun control" proposals.

    Note: Gun control is NOT about gun control, nor even saving lives. It is about CONTROL, pure and simple. Saving lives is just an excuse.

    Lost Sheep.
     
  2. Alaska444

    Alaska444 member

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    Sorry, but what you are describing is nothing short of a national ID. That is a different discussion than a FOID, but not a good idea.
     
  3. doom

    doom Member

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    As someone who lives in Illinois, all I can say is, this idea is stupid. In my view, there should be NO background checks, no waiting periods, or limitations on arms, heck I'll even go so far as to say that, anyone who serves time in a jail, for a crime other than murder; should have their rights restored (just like in the westerns). Evil is evil, it's just like Coke Cola, same recipe, re-branded into many knock offs throughout the course of history (but I do like Coke Cola).

    I've been fighting gun-control in my state ever since I got an interest in shooting firearms at paper (2004). Let me tell you, they, the opponent, do NOT care for compromise, and they HATE guns, and our right to arms. I can't say this enough, no amount of laws, licensing will be enough to stop them.

    Also, for those of you who live in states where there is no FOID and Constitutional Carry, I have to ask, what are you thinking? Look, I know things are bad now, under the current administration, but if there is one thing which I have observed, it's that presidents and their visions do NOT last. I look at Reagan's vision for our country, and if Obama and Clinton were able to screw it up, then we should (in the same manner) be able to do likewise with Obama's BS, after he leave's office.

    If anything, we have got to focus on our state legislatures, and vote out ANYONE who even has the slightest support for ANY form of gun-control. I don't care if they are Democrat, or Republican, if they support banning high-caps, they support the eventual banning of all modern rifles and handguns through that design alone.

    If they support a ban on 'Assault' weapons, they will eventually go after your shotgun, and anything that can hold more than one shell. They don't care about compromise, they only care about control.

    Don't give up, use the legislative process, put good people in, and let's win back the country. It can be done. Another point, the current wait for a real FOID card in this state, is BEYOND what the law demands, and what the law REQUIRES the state to issue one by. The normal wait for a FOID is 30 days, that's how long the state has to process, approve and issue your card. One problem, when you got three people down in Springfield processing applications for nearly the entire population of the state, the wait gets longer, and people get discouraged. That's the whole point of any gun-control scheme, make it seem reasonable, but in the end, make it so hard, so difficult, so expensive, that people gradually lose interest in buying firearms.

    It's really bad in Illinois, why? We will have, in 180 days, and counting, the right to keep and bear arms. Now, as someone working behind the scene, I can tell you, the Chicago democrats do NOT just want people with a FOID, carrying guns on their turf, in their city, not unless they can have something about it. We'll have shall issue LTC by years end, but it will be an EXTREMELY long wait. Why? because you'll need both a FOID to apply for the LTC. Now, if you have the unfortunate circumstance of living here like I do, even renewing will cost you 30+ days, in the wake of legislation being passed. Food for thought.

    DON'T GIVE THEM AN INCH!
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  4. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    Alaska444, I happen to fully agree with you.

    This discussion has been purely from a 2A standpoint of course. Anything else quickly degenerates into immigration reform, what is / isn't racist, what Jesus would or wouldn't have done, and what caliber he shoots, it wouldn't be 9mm surely? And we all wear tinfoil hats to keep the feds from broadcasting propaganda to the radios in our molar fillings....

    But yes, IMO a Federal ID card, even one that didn't infringe on the RKBA, could still be a very poor idea... just not a here'n now, talking to Lost Sheep on THR kinda discussion.
     
  5. danoam

    danoam Member

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    There is already an official document that states that I have the right to keep and bear arms.
     
  6. PBR Streetgang

    PBR Streetgang Member

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    We gun owners make a lot of our own problems by not being responsible . If I could have a way to verify that a private sale I was making was to a person that could legally own a firearm ,I'd have no problem doing that.....

    I'd like to see a situation where the seller could have a number to call and verify the buyer was able to buy a firearm. I wouldn't have a problem if this had a minimal cost ($5-$10) You received a reference number to verify your call.

    No need to to file the firearm info ,just that the buyer was verified. The buyer and seller(if they came to a agreement) would privately swap sales info.
    This wouldn't even indicate a sale but only a check of eligibility of a possible purchase.

    any opinion?
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  7. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    If it worried me, I might just ask to see their voters' registration card... tells me they're a reasonably responsible citizen of my state and not a convicted felon.

    If they didn't have one, and I don't know them, and they worry me, I just wouldn't sell to them.

    Of course, I'm not inclined to sell guns anyway, and I've never in my life handed a gun, loaded or otherwise, to someone I didn't know personally. Silly idea, me doing that.
     
  8. HighExpert

    HighExpert Member

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    The way I see it I have a right to buy a gun. If you want to deny me, prove that I am ineligible. I do not intend to help you do that. If these government permits were all they were cracked up to be "Why do I need an NICS check when I have a concealed carry permit? I know, not all states require it but VA does. You know the state with the gun show loophole everytime we hear the media talk about it. What, you mean VA actually have a more restrictive law than say FL? Why do I have to fill out a 4473 if there is no gun registration scheme when I have a CCW?
     
  9. VVelox

    VVelox Member

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    No issue with that, except for the cost.

    Also the issue with not being responsible is a small minority. And nothing will change that. What needs fought is how it is portrayed as it being the majority.
     
  10. abajaj11

    abajaj11 Member

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    If the government can issue you a card to exercise a right, then they can take that card away. Should we have a government issued ID before we can speak in public or practice our religion?
    No, our citizenship is all the ID we need. Or at least so it says, in the Constitution.
    :)
     
  11. TheOld Man

    TheOld Man Member

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    Some folks have apparently forgot how the American Revolution actually started.
    The British decided they would try to learn exactly who had muskets, ball and powder -- and intended to confiscate same. They sent a force to do exactly that, and were met by 70-odd Minutemen at Lexington Common, bearing arms.
    The British ordered the Colonists to surrender their weapons. The Colonists refused.
    Nobody is quite sure who shot first, but that was the actual start of the American Revolution.
     
  12. easyg

    easyg Member

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    And what happens when the federal government simply refuses to issue this card to a particular citizen?

    Does the citizen then go and hire an attorney and sue the government?
    And if that citizen happens to be too poor to hire an attorney?
    And if that citizen happens to be too illiterate or too uneducated to file the law suit himself?
    Eventually only the wealthy and educated elite will be able to fight such denials to issue such a card.



    Besides, the 2nd Amendment clearly states that my Right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    By being forced to show a national ID card (or any ID card for that matter), and then being electronically investigated for any possible crimes that might prevent me from obtaining a firearm IS infringing upon my 2nd Amendment Right.

    The U.S. justice system was founded upon the "assumption of innocence".
    Having to prove that I am not a criminal before being ALLOWED to purchase a firearm takes away this presumption of innocence.
    In effect, the federal government is saying "you are guilty unless you can prove that you're not".
    This is completely wrong and flies in the face of freedom itself!
     
  13. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    How about we lock up the dangerous people and just assume that everyone walking around is an honest law abiding person.
     
  14. easyg

    easyg Member

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    But who gets to decide who is dangerous?

    Many of those in the Senate and in the Congress, and many of those in the FBI, DEA, and BATF would probably consider many of the folks on this forum to be "dangerous".
    They would probably consider anyone who wants an "assault rifle" to be dangerous.
    Or anyone who speaks out against the government to be dangerous.
     
  15. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Violent criminals.
     
  16. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Member

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  17. Brockak47

    Brockak47 Member

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    I'll pass on that terrible idea, do you also want me to get a card to exercise my other rights too?


    How has that FOID card helped Illinois ??
     
  18. Lost Sheep

    Lost Sheep Member

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    Read post #7, please. The only thing this idea shares with Illinois is four letters. Nothing else.

    Lost Sheep
     
  19. joeschmoe

    joeschmoe Member

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    Your right. It's worse. This idea would be at the mercy of Congress, not local government.

    When was the last time Congress passed a "clean" bill? Without christmas tree amendments all over it. Changing it, adding exceptions, restrictive clauses and unrelated pork barrel spending? How do you think this will get through?

    Why not simply enforce the current restrictions on the government in the BoR's? Like the 2nd Amendment.
     
  20. sfed

    sfed Member

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    Illinois finally got the 2nd amendment back and now some anti gun rights IDIOT wants to go NATION WIDE with the insanity??? NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!!
     
  21. Alaska444

    Alaska444 member

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    Sorry, Lost Sheep is not some ***** as you incorrectly called him.

    He is a very thoughtful, caring and 2A supporting gun owner. Read the posts. Although I disagree with his proposal, I appreciate his wisdom and courage to engage in such a discussion. I would hope you would as well.
     
  22. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    Remember when the Nazi's asked the Jews to wear a little star to identify them as Jewish people?

    This is similar.
     
  23. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    Really, this was an awesome debate for upperclassman civics ... but I'm afraid a few people came into the lecture late, and haven't kept up with the required reading...

    Gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. Until next time...

    Regards,

    -TS
     
  24. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    What about folks who don't get the card? They don't fall under the 2nd? If they are required to get the card regardless of whether they own a gun or not, then it becomes a national ID as someone else mentioned. So, it is bad on both counts.

    We already have NICS. It has flaws but it can and should fixed. Why do we need another database? NICS data isn't retained. (at least that's the way it is suppose to be).
     
  25. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    And the connection that it takes a RIGHT and makes it a government-granted PRIVLEDGE. Try this one one for size: If you don't have the correct card, can I quarter some soldiers in your house?

    NO NO NO NO H NO
     
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