In the market for a Browning Hi power. Considerations for selecting a used one.

[Grim Peeper]

Ive been wanting one for a while now and there are alot at my local gun store for cheap. These guns are heavily used and all seem to be belguim made hi powers theres like six of them and and 2 are newer with ambi saftey. 2 of them look really old and the finsh on all of them is pretty bad but there all in the 450 range. I dont really care about the looks and finish as long as they funtion and shoot well. When inspecting a few of them I tested them like a 1911 testing for good barrel fit and looking for excessive slide play and drive fireing to test trigger (all triggers were bad). I will admit that I know very little about hi powers and how to get a good one and any suggestions are greatly apperciated as to what to look for and what to buy.

 

[nathan]

If the barrel is worn , i d stay away. Save some more and wait for a good deal at gunbroker.

 

[earlthegoat2]

The newer ones with the ambi safety are probably Assembled in Portugal and are excellent pistols. If there is one of those in the 450 range that does not look too worn then it would be a great deal.

If they all look that bad though then 450 seems about a going rate. I would think one of them in the bunch would be a good shooter. As was said, check the barrel. Field strip it so you can get a good look. While you are at it look at the locking lugs to make sure there is not excessive wear there. Safety check it in the usual manner. Make sure the hammer does not follow and the disconnect are functional.

Another thing to look for if you are about to buy is the magazine. I only use Browning and MecGar mags. If you see a ProMag ask to switch it out with one of the other ones. Ive had bad luck with Act-Mags too. On some older guns the mags will be unmarked and this is a good sign and it probably will be OK in my experience. If the gun was built for a military or police force the mag may never have been marked but it is still a factory mag.

 

[JRH6856]

What earlthegoat said. Plus, if they still have the magazine safety installed, the triggers are going to be "bad". But it is easy to remove and makes a big difference.

And if you haven't already, check out the late Stephen Camp's pages on the BHP

 

[Grim Peeper]

How can you really tell if the barrel is worn will it shake around in the slide or feel loose or not have a good lock up Its hard to tell how they will funtion just by the outer wear. I glad there is someplace to go for advice. When I talk to any of my younger shooting friends about high powers they immediately tell me that I should just buy a damn sig or something.

 

[JRH6856]

The best way to check for barrel ware is to check the bore. Bright and shiny with sharply defined rigling is good. Darkened, pitted, worn rifling is not good.

Check the locking lugs for wear on the front shoulders. New lugs will be square. The more rounded they are, the more wear. And if they are sheared at an angle, it's bad. Check the slide lugs (rear face) for the same wear pattern.

Check the lower rear corner of the ejection port for cracks in the slide.

 

[WVsig]

Ive been wanting one for a while now and there are alot at my local gun store for cheap. These guns are heavily used and all seem to be belguim made hi powers theres like six of them and and 2 are newer with ambi saftey. 2 of them look really old and the finsh on all of them is pretty bad but there all in the 450 range. I dont really care about the looks and finish as long as they funtion and shoot well. When inspecting a few of them I tested them like a 1911 testing for good barrel fit and looking for excessive slide play and drive fireing to test trigger (all triggers were bad). I will admit that I know very little about hi powers and how to get a good one and any suggestions are greatly apperciated as to what to look for and what to buy.

These are most likely overseas trade ins. There is a new batch that has hit the shores recently like these:



I personally think that there are better surplus guns out there then the recent batch of imports. If I were looking for a shooter I would look for a MKIII. They will have ambi safeties and better sights. Avoid any surplus gun with a internal extractor. They are weak and prone to breakage and are expensive to replace when you can find one.

The MKIII will have cast frame which will be stronger and will be able to handle +P ammo better than the older forged frame. On any BHP check the locking lugs and the barrel cam. If the gun has been abused it will show wear there. Check and make sure the bore is bright and shinny.

If you have a good transfer dealer then I would look at Coles on GB for surplus guns. He has a good rep for grading and for delivering good guns at a good price. He has guns ranging from $399 to $459. They make excellent shooters.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Semi-Auto-Pistols/BI.aspx?IncludeSellers=2621012&mfg=1000049

Also track GB and other site you can find a good commerical BHP for under $600 if you are diligent and have a good transfer dealer. Good luck they are worth the work.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Good advice from all. I echo all of it.
The only thing I would say is it's not that the internal extractors are weak, but that any gun with one is more than 50 years old at this point. If the internal extractor does break, replacements are hard to find. Jack First is currently making some, but who knows how long those will be available.

 

[WVsig]

Good advice from all. I echo all of it.
The only thing I would say is it's not that the internal extractors are weak, but that any gun with one is more than 50 years old at this point. If the internal extractor does break, replacements are hard to find. Jack First is currently making some, but who knows how long those will be available.

IMHO the internal extractor is a known weak part in the design of the BHP. That is one of the reasons it was redesigned. It is not a matter of if the internal extractor will break it is a matter of when if you intend to shoot the gun on a regular basis. This is why my internal extractor BHPs are a few times a year guns not regular shooters. YMMV and I am cool with that.

 

[huntershooter]

A correction; the statement "The Mk III will have a cast frame which will be stronger..." is incorrect.
The early Mk lll's were forged frame guns- and rather they are stronger or better able to handle +P ammo is probably arguable. I've yet to see a forged frame P-35 crater from shooting +P ammo, although I know it can happen-given enough rounds downrange. I've read reports of the Brits trashing their P-35's (when they were an issued sidearm) from shooting subgun ammo continuously.
The cast frame guns were produced for two reasons; the .40 S&W was introduced in the P-35/BHP and required a beefier frame so as not to prematurely beat themselves to death --and-they were easier/cheaper to produce than the forged frame guns.
For the average handgunner, there is certainly nothing wrong with a forged frame, external extractor gun.

 

[WVsig]

A correction; the statement "The Mk III will have a cast frame which will be stronger..." is incorrect.
The early Mk lll's were forged frame guns- and rather they are stronger or better able to handle +P ammo is probably arguable. I've yet to see a forged frame P-35 crater from shooting +P ammo, although I know it can happen-given enough rounds downrange. I've read reports of the Brits trashing their P-35's (when they were an issued sidearm) from shooting subgun ammo continuously.
The cast frame guns were produced for two reasons; the .40 S&W was introduced in the P-35/BHP and required a beefier frame so as not to prematurely beat themselves to death --and-they were easier/cheaper to produce than the forged frame guns.
For the average handgunner, there is certainly nothing wrong with a forged frame, external extractor gun.

Yes there are some early MKIIIs which are forged but they are the exception not the rule. You can go to 100 guns shops and look at 100 different MKIIIs and you will be lucky to see one forged MKIII. We are talking about guns which were assembled from leftover MKII frames somewhere into 1993.

Sorry but you are miss-informed in terms of the strength of the two frames. The heat treating of the cast frames is better than that found on the forged. It is a universally accepted truth: Here is nice explanation from Mr. Camp's website:

When Browning started to develop the .40 S&W version of the Hi-Power in the middle 1990s, they quickly discovered that significant changes had to be made on that version in order to stand up to the beating of the .40 S&W cartridge. These included a thicker (stronger and heavier) slide, additional slide/barrel locking lug, and other items. Also, the strength of some of the materials was improved. The improved steels are now used on both the 9mm and .40 guns. Thus, any .40 Hi-Power should have the stronger steels, and the newer 9mm guns will also have them. Specifically, the receiver (frame) was changed from forged to cast steel.

The forged frame is weaker than the cast and will handle more +P than a forged one. Forged frames that were tested with the 40 S&W round suffered from rail warpage and breakage after as few as 2500 rounds, again accoding to Mr Camp. This does not mean that shooting +P in a forged frame 9mm will turn it into dust but it does not change the fact that will not hold up as long as the cast with +P or higher pressure ammo.

The slide is also beefed up which helps with the locking lug deformation which can happen in pre-cast MKIII guns. Which is also a commonly sighted point of failure. Again this does not mean that one cannot shoot some +P ammo from older BHPs. I have done it and continue to do it but I would not recommend a heavy steady diet of it or true NATO spec ammo either. Clearly YMMV.

I agree 100% that cost was a major factor in choosing cast over forged. It was developed around 1992 to handle the 40 S&W. It has long been speculated that they could have made it just as strong using a forged frame but that it would have cost more and the cast design was more than up to the task for less $$$$. The BHP is expensive enough to produce so adding more cost did not make sense.

In the end believe what you want to and buy accordingly. I like the feel and the look of the older guns, C and T series and since I do not shoot a lot of +P ammo they are my preferred BHPs but for many people the MKIII is preferred because of the durability of the cast frame. Luckily we have enough to choose from that there are many to choose from and you do not have to be exclusive to one camp or another.

 

[Comrade Mike]

Don't worry about +P ammunition in a cast or a forged frame. You'll wear out a lot more before you damage the frame or slide

 

[earlthegoat2]

^^^^Might want to at least change the recoil spring to a stouter one though.

 

[Pilot]

Vagunner nailed it.

 

[ACP]

I'd get a MkIII for the better sights and safeties.

Remove the mag. disconnect and the trigger will improve vastly.

I've never had a BHP fail to chamber, fire or eject a round.

Look around a little more if you have to... I will say $450 is a darned good price for a BHP (not a clone). I've seen many used one for several hundred more than that. I won't tell you what I recently paid for mine new....

 

[Deaf Smith]

Long time ago I was in IPSC and started off with a 1911 series 70.

But alot of us local IPSC'ers did have problems with the series 70s. So I went to the P-35. It never jammed.

Shot it for years and made class 'A'. Wore out one, breaking the barrel where the locking lug connects to the barrel. Replaced the barrel and kept shooting. Won alot of trophies not cause I was so good but cause my gun never jammed!

Well years later i went into IDPA. Prizing reliability so much I went to the Glock cause I heard it was just as reliable and lasted longer than the P-35.

It did and it did.

I have one P-38 now, a MKIII, paid $500 OTD for it, box, papers, and mags came with it. And I intend on keeping it.

Deaf

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The slide is also beefed up which helps with the locking lug deformation which can happen in pre-cast MKIII guns. Which is also a commonly sighted point of failure.

I believe the slide was only beefed up for the .40 Hi-Power. The 9mm uses a different slide. You can tell the difference by looking at the slide stop. The .40 slides have a machined recess in their thicker slides so they can use the same slide stop as the 9mm. The 9mm don't have that cutout because the 9mm slide is the same dimensions it always has been.

 

[USBP379]

I keep telling myself to get one of the military trade-ins and then sending it to Ted Yost. Something about the thought of an SRT package with a lanyard ring really appeals to me.

 

[WVsig]

I believe the slide was only beefed up for the .40 Hi-Power. The 9mm uses a different slide. You can tell the difference by looking at the slide stop. The .40 slides have a machined recess in their thicker slides so they can use the same slide stop as the 9mm. The 9mm don't have that cutout because the 9mm slide is the same dimensions it always has been.

Yes you are right dimensionally they are the same but the slide itself on a MKIII is stronger because it currently heat treated to a higher degree to match the cast frame. IIRC I could be wrong. It has been known to happen.

 

[USBP379]

So along the lines of the thread; who's the current "go to" BHP smith? Novak? Heirloom? Action Works?

TIA.

 

[WVsig]

So along the lines of the thread; who's the current "go to" BHP smith? Novak? Heirloom? Action Works?

It really depends on what you are looking to have done. You cannot go wrong with anyone you listed above. There is a style to each of the top BHP gunsmiths IMHO. Not that one is better than another they are just different in their aesthetic so they attract different clientele looking for different outcomes. A lot of these smiths will have custom parts like Don Williams custom safety which he makes from the existing safety. Heirloom, C&S and Garthwaite also make their own safeties.

-Novak does great work and for smaller jobs has very fast turntimes.

-Don Williams = Action Works is one of the best in the business and I can personally vouch for the quality of his work. Turntimes here depending on schedule will be 6 months+. I think he offers the best value in terms of price function and craftsmanship.

-Heirloom produces some of the nicest guns ever made IMHO. Yost and Burton are exceptional but you are looking at big time $$$ and sometimes long turn times. They are worth the wait and the $$$ one day I will bite the bullet and get one. They are at the level of a piece of functional art.

Other people who you did not mention:

-C&S does excellent work. The 3 listed above all use their parts for custom builds. They are right there with the other top smiths.

-Jim Garthwaite is another one who will not disappoint. He can do everything from beavertails to basic trigger jobs. I personally love his straight trigger. He uses in house firing controls IIRC.

All of these guys are going to cost you some coin but the end result is nice.

 

[USBP379]

It really depends on what you are looking to have done. You cannot go wrong with anyone you listed above. There is a style to each of the top BHP gunsmiths IMHO. Not that one is better than another they are just different in their aesthetic so they attract different clientele looking for different outcomes. A lot of these smiths will have custom parts like Don Williams custom safety which he makes from the existing safety. Heirloom, C&S and Garthwaite also make their own safeties.

-Novak does great work and for smaller jobs has very fast turntimes.

-Don Williams = Action Works is one of the best in the business and I can personally vouch for the quality of his work. Turntimes here depending on schedule will be 6 months+. I think he offers the best value in terms of price function and craftsmanship.

-Heirloom produces some of the nicest guns ever made IMHO. Yost and Burton are exceptional but you are looking at big time $$$ and turntimes in the years not months. They are worth the wait and the $$$ one day I will bite the bullet and get one. They are at the level of a piece of functional art.

Other people who you did not mention:

-C&S does excellent work. The 3 listed above all use their parts for custom builds. They are right there with the other top smiths.

-Jim Garthwaite is another one who will not disappoint. He can do everything from beavertails to basic trigger jobs. I personally love his straight trigger. He uses in house firing controls IIRC.

All of these guys are going to cost you some coin but the end result is nice.

I have a Burton 1* Colt Commander that he did for me six or seven years ago. It is a nice gun so I'm confident a BHP would be just as lovely.

With that said, I am a bit turned off by the price of the SRT. If I wrap too much money into my gun it'll become a safe queen rather than a carry gun. Lord knows I don't need another showpiece....

Of the current websites I've perused, I'm kind of leaning toward something like a Novak Special Ops or Action Works Tactical Package. Both seem to be pretty equal for features but the work of Don Williams is a couple hundred dollars cheaper. The cheaper work should allow me to get the gun chromed or Robared or something.

 

[WVsig]

Don does good work this is a Alloy Framed FN Hi Power he did some work on for me... No disrespect to the guys at Heirloom or Don but I think Don makes more of a working gun if you know what I mean. It is beautifully done but no so pretty that you are scared to shoot it and carry it.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've got both a Don Williams Hi-Power and a Wickmann Hi-Power (former Novaks smith). They are both top notch; but if we were talking a couple of hundred dollars between the two, I'd enthusiastically go with the cheaper one. If you want to get into details, PM me.

In addition to the smiths mentioned above, Robar does a workman-like Hi-Power. Good prices and good turn around but if you refinish they electropencil all your parts and while they can improve a factory trigger, I don't think they are in the same league as Don Williams or Novak.

 

[Vonderek]

As mentioned, the internal extractors in the earlier examples can be problematic. Extractors are hard to find and need to be fitted. I keep re-tensioning the original extractor in my 1961 but it is not long-term reliable.