Inconsistent burn using H4227 in 38/40

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andym79

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Hi guys, I have put about 1000 rounds through my old 38-40 (Winchester 1892), its an accurate rifle and fun to shoot.

I have never had complete burn of the H4227, often unburnt kernels would fall into action on extraction, but the bullets always hit the target and usually very well. I clean it after each match 40 or 50 rounds.

Recently however the burn has become less consistent with some bullets missing the target, a couple hitting the dirt a few yards short of the target, recoil not that there was much has seemed lower. The final straw came on Saturday when I got a squib, it cost me 100 points and when we moved back I changed to my 32-20 (no sight setting at that distance).

The powder was from the same can as in previous matches, the load was the same 18 grains of H4227, triple checked, the primers were the same LP federal, brass Starline full sized, the alloys was the same PB 4:1 Lino.

I am thinking of quitting H4227 in the 38-40 as an un noticed squib would have cost me more than 100 points.

How can I improve burn consistency?

1. Use LR primers?
2. Drill lout flash holes a bit?
3. Change to a faster powder, I only have Trailboss, but its a bit wimpy at 100 yards, I also have 3N38, N110 and AP100 for which there is not load data. I would like some Unique, but can't get hold of it nor the equivalent AP70.
4. Use BP?

Trail boss works well but I am looking to get a bit more velocity for further out. Some suggested loads, using Clays and International make me a little uneasy as the fill only about 1/3 of the case.

I have been looking at it and I think ADI AP 100 or Vihtavuori 3N38 could be good powder for the 38-40. Loads using these powders 10 grains and 12 grains respectively should produce loads with clean burn over 1/2 fill and 1450 ish fps. however there is not load data for either of these powders. Has anyone used either powder in the 38-40?

I am reluctant to try these powders without real world trial even though QL predicts nothing untoward.

Has anyone tried them?
 
IMR 4227 in 38/40 Winchester

Cast Bullet weight, number? Your below the starting load 19.0grs in my Lyman for a 172/170gr cast plain base bullet. Showing 26.0gr maximum at 1996 fps in a model 92Win 20" barrel rifle. Remington 2 1/2 primers. Another source list 25.8gr with 180gr cast. Note that IMR 4227 is now made in a different country, yours. :) Hodgdon had to screw with it.
 
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You said you are using Federal LP primers. In your list of fixes you mentioned LR primers. It's my opinion a Large Pistol Magnum primer would help your inconsistent burn problems with 4227. In reality, you are using a powder on the slow side and like most slow powders they burn much better on the high end of the pressure range. Another fix on your list, going with a faster powder might help too. A medium burn powder like HS-6, Unique, Universal, AA#5 and the like will probably produce better results.

Where did you get data using H4227 in the 38-40 anyway?
 
American Reloader has CSB-1 In stock right now, it says to use unique load Data. U may wanna check it out.. I bought 8lbs of csb-5, its a little faster, and a lot cleaner than just about any pistol Powder I have used. Good stuff. Just sayin.
 
Try taking a match to your unburnt powder, you will probably find it is powder residue.

To clean things up I go to large pistol magnum primers in 45 Colt. Brand doesn't seem to matter. I also have best results with a lightly compressed charge. YMMV
 
The Speer #14 reloading manual has data for the 38/40 in their Rifle data section for 180 grain lead bullets only. Speer's test rifle was a 24" universal receiver kept to the industry standard of 14,000 CUP.

They show loads for 180 grain lead bullets with 11.9 grs. of Viht. N105 @1398 FPS to a max of 12.5 grs. @ 1514 FPS.

They also have Vhit. N350 loads starting @ 7.8 grs. @ 1234 FPS and a max of 8.4 grs. @ 1314 FPS.

Another load of Accurate Arms 5744 starting @ 14.0 grs @ 1243 FPS and a max of 15.0 grs. @ 1309 FPS.

Again, all of these loads were with 180 grain lead bullets. All of the other loads listed are with fast burning pistol powders that range in charges of 5 grains to 7 grains, which you didn't want.

I would first try a large pistol magnum primer to see if that helps you 4227 load.
 
Out of a rifle, H4227 makes as much sense for .38-40WCF as any slow-burning pistol powder. There's data available for .38-40, using Reloder-7, which burns even slower, and the loads appear to work fine.
The first thing I'd advise is to increase the crimp on the projectile from what APPEARS to be adequate, to what appears to be LOTSA. This may increase the pressure behind the projectile to enable a more complete burn. If this doesn't work, try bumping the powder charge to 18.5/4227/175, with the heavier crimp.

The next thing I'D suggest is to go to the minimum starting charge weight, especially since your projectile weight (and bearing surface, thus friction) have dropped. You may not be building enough pressure behind the projectile to get a complete burn with H4227.

The use of a Large Pistol Magnum primer would probably help, but may not be necessary, if you take the previous steps involving crimp and powder charge.

Do you have access to Alliant 2400? It is about midway between the 4227s and the AP 100 you're contemplating, and has a reputation for working well with standard primers and sub-starting loads.
 
Maybe look into hodgdons lilgun, its a low preasure Powder, it just may be what your needing. It works good in low preasure actions. When I started loading a few different loads with it I gained velocity and accuracy improved. Just a thought.
 
4227 is a poor choice for a low pressure round like the 38-40.


^^^This. My experience is IMR4227 works best with heavy projectiles at the upper end of it's load recipe parameters. Even then it takes a full case and a heavy crimp to burn clean. For me in magnum cases, it has always proved very accurate and consistent when used as such.
 
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