Increase Gun Safety with... A Rubber Band?

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Once more, I am not trying to rewrite Rule 1: All guns should be treated as though they are loaded.
I am saying that I agree with rule 1, but if something does go bump in the night the bands are to remind me to make ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that what gun I pick up IS loaded. I will clarify that I DO know what guns are loaded and what guns are not and that they will be stored separately. The band is like a stamp or a signature saying, "yes, I the handler and owner of this firearm have loaded this weapon." It is not an excuse to be negligent with any other guns / ignore Rule 1.

The idea behind loading my gun for a specific night is because there was what I thought a decent possibility that someone was attempting to break in. Previously to that night I did not keep loaded firearms. It made me feel safer knowing that there was a "string around my finger" so-to-speak to remind me.
In regards to keeping a loaded magazine next to the gun, it is simply what I prefer. It makes me feel safer and that, whether anyone accepts it or not, is a valid point. I think it would be better than no gun at all and being caught completely unarmed, yes? If you want to keep a loaded gun in condition 1 in your home, that is completely fine with me. Do as you individually see fit and safe.
 
If you are teaching a new shooter I would hope the first thing you teach them is Rule1.
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Actually I teach Rule 1 thusly:

All firearms are to be considered loaded until you have positively verified they are not. (That's the real Rule 1) Notice the lack of the word ‘assumed’. You do not assume it is loaded; you consider it as though you know it is loaded and behave appropriately.

This means that if you see a firearm (or I hand you a firearm) you will consider it loaded, you will open the action, and verify its condition. If the firearm leaves your hands for any amount of time, you will consider it loaded until you positively verify it is not. Even if you watch me clear it, you will consider it loaded until you have positively verified it is not.

If you are demonstrating one, dry firing you gun in your HOME or anywhere else for that matter, I would believe you to be professional about it and check the chamber, mag, lifters etc. first to be sure the gun is SAFE.
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Ask yourself, would you or do you dry fire a loaded gun? Would you or do you clean a loaded gun? Would you or do you function check a loaded gun? If you answer no, then you are not in compliance with your version of Rule 1. End of subject.

A rule that you only obey sometimes is not a rule but a suggestion.
 
How would you remember which ones were stored where? Suppose someone broke in and you went to the wrong storage and all the guns had no rubber bands on them i.e. not loaded. What would you do?
May I suggest to stay in school and attend class on a regular basis. You could also twist a rubber band around your finger to remind you. This is an old trick.
 
Jspotto said:
How would you remember which ones were stored where? Suppose someone broke in and you went to the wrong storage and all the guns had no rubber bands on them i.e. not loaded. What would you do?
May I suggest to stay in school and attend class on a regular basis. You could also twist a rubber band around your finger to remind you. This is an old trick.
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Because the gun with the magazine next to it is stored next to my bed, and the rest are stored in a completely separate place.
And for what it's worth, I am successful in school and only skip classes when absolutely necessary (school doesn't start until next week believe it or not, thanks to budget cuts).
 
OK, at first I didn't think to much of this idea, but now I understand your 'string around the finger' bit.

Since, following Rule 1, all your guns are loaded, and you are not using the rubber band to say "this gun is loaded, and the others ain't"; I can sort of accept the rubber-band as your reminder that that gun will absolutely, positively go bang when you pull the trigger. It's not a way to get around verifying the gun is not loaded with out actually checking, it to verify the gun IS loaded. Really no different than the folks that leave the 'no question it's loaded' guns in a holster.

Murphy's Rule 1 is all guns are always loaded until you really need a loaded gun.
 
Personally I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axle over the wording of Rule 1 from any one particular source.

Even Cooper himself varied the presentation of the Four Rules from time to time. One later version went thusly (this one from Cooper's Commentaries, v. 11 #4, April 2003 - http://harris.dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff11_4.html ):

We hoped by this time that the standard rules of safe gunhandling would have become universal throughout the world. They have been arrived at by careful consideration over the years, and they do not need modification or addition. We trust that all the family have them by heart in all languages, but for those who came in late here they are again:

All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)

Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.

Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

Those will do. We need all four and we do not need five. It should not be necessary to belabor this issue, but life is not perfect.
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Elsewhere, Rule 1 is expanded thusly:

"There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it; e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

All guns are always loaded. Period!

This must be your mindset. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!" (from http://billstclair.com/safetyrules.html )
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And you can see what our friend Xavier has to say about it at http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/06/rule-one.html and also later at http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/02/rethinking-rule-one.html .

I think the point of it all is that ANY gunhandler/shooter MUST ALWAYS satisfy himself/herself directly as to the condition of ANY firearm the moment it comes into his/her hands. If said gunhandler is not familiar with the firearm and does not know how to clear it, a simple polite request that the action be opened and the status of the firearm displayed clearly is not out of line.

As far as one's own firearms are concerned, the first thing a gun owner needs to do is to get familiar with how said firearm operates and its manual of arms. To this day I still hear of people who, having cocked a hammer on a chambered round, don't know how to get the hammer down without firing the round. The latest one was a couple of weeks ago on a reproduction of the old Winchester 1897 pump shotgun. Uncocking an exposed hammer over a chambered round is indeed a touchy bit of business, but it's a skill that needs to be mastered- preferably with an empty gun. These days of course designers have given us decocking levers on some handgun designs and various manual safeties on different modern production lever action rifles. But we still need to observe Rule 2 even with these 'improvements' in place.

As far as eventually being comfortable living with a given firearm in a loaded condition- it might very well take some time for that to come about. My first carry gun waaaaay back in the mid-1970s was a S&W J frame revolver. Not a lot to worry about there as far as determining condition was concerned- it was easy to check. And it took a fairly stout pull on the trigger to make it go off, as long as the hammer wasn't cocked.

But around the turn of the decade, as the '70s rolled into the '80s, I bought my first Colt 1911. It was kinda disturbing, seeing that cocked hammer with a round in the chamber and just that little safety lever to lock everything. It took me a bit to get used to it all. And my 'crutch' while I was learning to get used to it (with the help of a friend who was a long time 1911 shooter) was to always keep the loaded .45 in a good leather holster that covered the trigger guard and pretty much blocked access to the safety as well.

Along came the '90s, and I needed to go somewhere for a while that was exposed to salt spray. Those Glocks with their Tennifer finish were supposed to be pretty durable, so I bought a Glock 19 so as not to have to expose my Colt to such harsh conditions when I might not be able to pull maintenance on it. And I had to transition again. Once again, my 'crutch' while I was getting used to the new design was a good holster that fully covered the trigger guard, used religiously while the pistol was loaded but not actually being fired. And making sure that I always religiously observed Rule 3 as well, especially when putting the pistol back in its holster.

Nothing says there can't be a safe transition period while learning to feel comfortable around your own loaded firearms. Nothing says that any reasonable, safe approaches to learning to be comfortable around your own loaded firearms are wrong. But I think it is better in the long term to learn to be comfortable by learning and practicing the standard accepted approach to firearms safety- and that's the Four Rules.

hth,

lpl
 
To Mainsail

Quote:
Ask yourself, would you or do you dry fire a loaded gun? Would you or do you clean a loaded gun? Would you or do you function check a loaded gun? If you answer no, then you are not in compliance with your version of Rule 1. End of subject.

First, if you think I was stepping on your toes, I was not. I was merely stating that I agreed with Lee on Rule 1 and dis-agreed with you stating he was dumbing down the rule. I actually paid you a compliment by assuming you are professional. I don't know you, but based on your written words I assumed you are professional. The context here of me taking it upon myself to believe you are professional is the same context I apply for Rule 1. I take it upon myself to believe every gun is loaded. You have taken my statement out of that context. How you interpret the word "assume" and its meaning is your version, not mine. Walking into someone's house and seeing a pistol on the coffee table, I would take it upon myself (assume) to believe it loaded (wrapped in rubber bands or not):what:. You are playing with words in your quote above. I, as any knowledgeable person would answer No to all your questions above and would be in compliance with my version of rule 1 because steps would have been taken to be sure the gun was cleared and safe prior to performing any of those functions, as I assumed you did. You however, do seem to have more then one version of this rule so I pose a question to you. You are at my house and witness me take out my firearm, cleaning supplies and clear my weapon. You step out for a smoke and return. I am finished, you return and take my gun for inspection. What do you do? I already know your answer but throw it out there anyway.
More on your questions above, As a Gunsmith some of the answers may be yes, but that would depend on your interpretation of loaded.
 
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Mainsail said:
To tie this in the OP’s rubber band idea; he’s attempting to re-write the rule from ”All guns are to be considered loaded until you have positively determined they are not”, into “All guns are assumed to be unloaded unless there’s a rubber band on them”. This inverts the rule and renders it null, because as mentioned, the rubber band can fall off, break, be forgotten, etc. There is nothing positive about it as it assumes the negative.
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You are adding assumptions about the OP and the asserting your opinion on the subject (quite possibly incorrectly). The OP does state he does safety check his firearms. The rubber band is not used as his way of determining if a firearm is loaded. It is his way of knowing his firearm isn't unloaded. There is a difference. When he sees a firearm that has a rubber band on it, he isn't going to do a safety check, because he already knows it isn't safe. The actions taken would be to clear the firearm. If he sees a firearm without a rubber band on it, he will do a safety check on it because it may or may not be loaded. So a rubber band breaks, he picks up the firearm, and performs a safety check like any competent gun owner, and thus clears his firearm making it safe. What is negative about this?

It seems pretty clear to me that he doesn't generally keep loaded firearms around. So to add extra precaution to help with his uneasiness of having a loaded firearm, he puts a rubber band on the trigger guard. Big deal.

People get all worried about when things are done differently then what they do. This doesn't mean that it is bad. Would you do it? Obviously not. Would I? Nope. But I see no problem with the OP doing it. He knows why he is doing it. It isn't a way around safety checks or safe handling. It is so he knows, with certainty, that a gun is loaded.

It is essentially the same thing as when a firearm has a loaded chamber indicator. Should manufactures not make those, because after all, that would reinforce (somehow???) bad habits too? Nope. Because they are designed to let you know the gun IS loaded. A safety check is designed to let you know a gun is NOT loaded. Two separate things, still, one set of rules.

It isn't as if he is putting a rubber band on firearms to let him know the guns are unloaded. THAT would be causing bad habits or problems and would be a work around to safety checks. THAT wouldn't make since. THAT could be dangerous. THIS is not.
 
Mainsail, I agree with you. I have been teaching beginners for 25+ years. I never tell a student "a gun is always loaded".... for the exact reasons that you stated so well. Bravo.
 
It seems like a lot of people are getting kinda defensive about this (maybe I am a little, too, :p). Just keep in mind that all of us have safety on our minds when we are around guns; that much is very apparent based on the replies from everyone. Rest assured that I practice safe handling and am fully capable of making wise decisions, just like all of us can.
It also seems like there is a lot of confusion about what was said / implied / whatever. With what I just said in the previous paragraph in mind, let's agree or agree to disagree on the original subject (which seems to have taken back seat to differing opinions about basic handling and firearms and different wordings of rules all of us know).
We are all striving to educate others on safety and maybe all of us have different ways of doing it, but in the end it's what works for you. And what works for you is best for you. Thank all of you for your concerned replies. Good to know we have people around to make sure we don't screw up. :)
 
The band is like a stamp or a signature saying, "yes, I the handler and owner of this firearm have loaded this weapon." It is not an excuse to be negligent with any other guns / ignore Rule 1.
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And I still think it is a job better accomplished with a good holster. You need a holster anyway, unless your guns are range toys only.

But for all the argument, we all know that all guns are always loaded ... and I don't think anyone is advocating assuming a weapon in cleared because of a lack of a rubber-band or other device ... adding a device is a flag that the gun IS and SHOULD BE loaded. In my case, the device also prevents tampering, and is a handy storage solution. It also serves as a reminder that every gun picked up should be chamber checked and/or cleared on pickup, the only exception being holstered handguns that I WANT loaded, but don't want to be endlessly fiddling with ... damn right I treat a holstered gun as loaded, but I don't need to unload it to verify the loaded state if it is flagged.

I work in an industry very focused on human performance, and the practice of checking something safe EVERY TIME no matter what is a good one. But it doesn't preclude flagging equipment that is in a condition not suited for current maintenance or adjustment.
 
Thank you yeti, Bonesinium, bigfatdave and others for your accurate clarifications.
The holster idea is a brilliant one as well that I actually hadn't thought about or heard of before this thread. I just don't own a pistol. College = no money = no pistol. :/ It's an investment. After a few years, I'll be able to buy all the pistols I want! :D
 
There are no "safe neighborhoods". Home invasions and burglaries are increasing in those areas because the crooks know that 1, many residents there have reduced situational awareness, and 2, that's where the good stuff is.

No rubber bands for me. ATF would probably claim I was trying to make a machine gun.
 
The action open sounds a good Idea, release the slide and presto, ready to go.

The rubber band is ingenious, however, there is no substitute for good practices, finger off the trigger at all times is the best safety measure.

During stressful situations, as a natural reflex, we squeeze our hands as we speak or move, of course if the finger off the trigger rule is not practiced, an unintentional discharge will follow.
 
This is a bad idea, rubber bands snap and slide off all the time, it sound like a sure fire way to get hurt down the road. Get a trigget block that you can pop out, if you really need the comfort of an indicator. All my guns are chambered and holstered. No chance of a problem unless you draw the weapon to engage. Glock makes a saftey block that I use on my nightstand gun. It takes zero time to pop out and i know if I am asleep and wake up to draw my pistol from the "pillow pal" holster, it's not going off till I pop out the block.A second pistol is in a second location, why, because everyone knows that most folks keep a gun in the nightstand, and they may get it before you do if they are good. even an alarm and a dog, which I have dosen't gaurantee anything, but please no rubber bands.
 
gym said:
Get a trigget block that you can pop out, if you really need the comfort of an indicator.
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Just my humble opinion, but I don't like the idea of anything inside the trigger guard of a loaded gun.

Keeping the loaded gun in a holster sounds like a good plan.
 
Cardinal Rule #1:

All guns are loaded. Always...until you have determined that it's not loaded, and even then...treat it as though it were. The gun isn't clear until the action is locked open or the cylinder swung out, and the chambers visually verified to be empty. Until then...

The gun is loaded.
 
Interesting thread.

I will weigh in simply by restating what been said by others.

One-- I dont leave loaded rifles laying around.
Two--My handgun (CCW) is always loaded, either on me or close, especially at night.
Three- Any time I pick up a gun that has not been touched in any amount of time even a short time, I check the chamber, remove magazine etc to be sure before proceeding with it.

A simple little gizmo like the band to tell you that the gun is loaded can be easily missed or if the band just snaps and it whiizs across the room.

We just can't "forget" that a gun is loaded. To not check is to breed disaster.

I even check every new firearm that comes out of the case at the shop everytime before handing it to a customer to look at. Then replace it and check it again in 10 minutes for someone else.

My CCW gun is never unloaded (except to clean) so I treat it as I always treat it. ITS HOT.

If you are worried about this sort of issue, spend the $$$, get a Biometric pistol safe and keep your pistol ready to go and in there.

There will be no worries and you wont have to fret about it being loaded and you not remembering it.

All guns area always loaded, with that mindset thing stay intact and safe.

All the above things regarding safety too posted by others.

Lets face it, just because our neighborhood "Used to be safe" does not mean that it will stay that way.

Roving bands of desparate people can invade your area and enact trouble. Possibly it will not happen again, but then it might.

Be prepared and please dont depend on little gizmos.

If you clear it every time, you will not worry and you wont make a mistake.

This is a little saying I have and use in the CCW class a lot.

"There is NO such thing as a GUN ACCIDENT, Only the predictable outcome of irresponsible behavior"


Here is a little Jim Crack for ya. Buy a handful of chamber safe indicators.

These are a plastic device that slides into the chamber and you close the action at least down on the indicator. There will be a the RED flag sticking out of the ejection port etc

Great for stored guns like AR's or ???
Still does not make up for a visual check.

Please dont use these in a defense weapon as it could be tough in a pinch to get it out and the gun loaded
Be safe

Snowy
 
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All firearms are loaded until _I_ have positively verified they are not.
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Fixed it for you. There is no need for the words "to be considered" or "you." Guns ARE "loaded" until _I_ check it. Not you, not someone else. ME.

Actually, Jeff Cooper's real "Rule #1" is: "All guns are always loaded."

I understand the intent, but once I verify it's not loaded, am I not supposed to dryfire because "all guns are always loaded?"

I have amended it to the above, All firearms are loaded until _I_ have positively verified they are not.
 
Someone who is very "unhandy" or whatever adjective you choose to use with a gun is probably more of a threat to him/herself than not.

I will admit that I dont shoot as much as I once did, but I keep my hand in as much as possible.

used to shoot IPS and steel plate 3 times a month. Does not prepare you to head off to a gun fight, but does keepm you smooth, safe and used to the equipment.

Running action drills is a great way to keep in top form with your hand gun.

Having to work against a clock and being watched all the while by a range officer who is not going to allow sloppy gun handling is good too.

Unless you are LE and train in shoot houses, man on man then gunfighting is really not soemthing you can say that your training for.

Using a shoot house with airsoft equipment and real live bodies that are reacting to you and against you is one very good way to learn tactics and how they work in the real world.

Back a couple years, we were at SHOT down in Vegas. Our booth was in the LE section. The next booth over had a video training device that was lazer guided and you wore a special vest. The computer could track your movements and you had to interact with the bad guys on screen (iisue challenges etc) and then fire appropriately.

Invariably that computer would shoot and you got your A$$ handed to you.

No two sceanrios were the same, even though they look alike. More bad guys, different angles.

Still not like a warm body thats working against you.

Snowy
 
Whether my Glocks are loaded or not, I always keep them cocked. I never went the route of "trigger forward = loaded, trigger back = unloaded." I'd rather treat them all as if they are always loaded. So if I used your system, I'd have to put a rubber band on all my guns, loaded or not!

I'd never trust a rubber band to remind me. If my memory were that bad, I'd HAVE to look in the chamber every time I handled a gun. Oh, wait. I already do that. Always clear the gun before dryfiring/takedown, and always chamber check before holstering and/or going out to check for bumps in the night. Otherwise, treat the gun as if it were loaded.

The biggest problem of all with this system is you need to make sure you have rubber bands around at all times. You'll have to keep track of mags, ammo, cleaning rod, patches, oil... and then "darn it, I'm out of rubber bands!" The first time you don't have a rubber band handy, the system makes things more dangerous. You'll have to put a twist tie on your pinky to remind yourself that you ran out of rubber bands. :) Or, alternatively, you can wait till you find a rubber band before loading the gun, and hope the guy doesn't break down the door in the interim. :)

Also, FWIW, keeping your guns unloaded doesn't necessarily make you safer. Unloaded guns are the ones that seem to ND the most.
 
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Actually, Jeff Cooper's real "Rule #1" is: "All guns are always loaded."

I understand the intent, but once I verify it's not loaded, am I not supposed to dryfire because "all guns are always loaded?"
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So once you've checked it you're OK with putting the barrel to your temple and pulling the trigger?
I'm thinking not. Just because you've checked doesn't mean the other rules don't apply.
You still dryfire into something that would catch or at least slow a bullet, yes? (hint, a bookshelf will do it, as will a bucket of sand)
You don't dry-fire t the wall your kids are behind, do you?
You still maintain safe trigger finger discipline, right?

You should NEVER put yourself in a position where your only defense is to Fudd up and say "but it is unloaded!" or even worse "but I thought it was unloaded!" in response to questioning of your actions.
 
All guns are loaded until you personally verify that it is clear. Period.
 
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