1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Individual Bullet I.D. number - each bullet, different Number!!!

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Mr Jody Hudson, Nov 19, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mr Jody Hudson

    Mr Jody Hudson Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Slower, Lower Delaware
    From PoliceOne.com has sent you a News Story from the PoliceOne daily News.
    Message: Bullet ID ¹

    Ammunition Coding System - A Revolutionary Way to Identify Bullets
    Almost every day you can open your local newspaper and read a story about a shooting where no evidence is left, except the victim and a bullet. According to the Untied States Department of Justice, there is at least a 37% chance of never finding a killer in a crime involving a firearm. By making the bullet itself a more useable piece of evidence (without having to also find the gun) we can greatly increase the chance that law enforcement will solve more crimes.

    Ravensforge has developed a patent pending technology: the Ammunition Coding System ("ACS"). ACS will assign a unique code to every bullet sold. By maintaining a record of purchases of ammunition, law enforcement personnel will be able to easily trace the ownership of any ammunition involved in a crime.

    The ballistic fingerprinting system which is currently under consideration is an alternative plan to ACS. However, ballistic fingerprinting has many weaknesses. Most importantly, it won't deal with the millions of guns currently owned. It is estimated that at any given point in time there is only a four to five year supply of ammunition in the marketplace. Because of these ongoing sales, ACS will provide current and updated information on all ammunition users. This information won't be available if gun ownership is used as the primary source of identification.

    In 1992, approximately 5.4 billion bullets were sold in the US alone. It is safe to assume that this number is trending upward. We estimate that 8-10 billion bullets were sold in the US in 2002. ACS has the capacity to accommodate this rate of sales for decades to come without duplicating the codes.

    The design of our engraving system will allow law enforcement personnel to identify the code on a bullet, if even as little as 20% of the base remains intact. Since bullets are designed for the base to remain solid and in its original shape, the probability of our codes being legible after use is very high. Tests have shown a 99% success rate in determining the code after firing the coded ammunition.

    We are soliciting ideas on how to implement ACS, as well as recommendations for improvements to its use or design. We will be happy to meet with you to further discuss and explain this unique and potentially valuable system to aid law enforcement professionals.

    Ammunition Coding System - Q & A's

    What is being proposed?

    The Ammunition Coding System ("ACS") creates a unique code that is engraved or similarly marked on every bullet sold. This engraving will be placed on both the projectile and the inside of the cartridge casing. Each code would be common to one box of bullets and unique from all other ammunition sold. This code would be tracked and a record maintained identifying who bought that particular box of bullets. This will allow law enforcement personnel to trace who purchased a bullet or bullets found at a crime scene.

    A database management contractor will maintain a record of all ammunition sales. Each ammunition retailer will be required to report the ACS code and information identifying the purchaser to the database manager. This information will be available only to authorized law enforcement personnel.

    This system won't necessarily prove who pulled the trigger, nor does ballistic fingerprinting, but it will provide law enforcement with a place to begin their investigation.

    What will it cost?

    The cost to implement this system is substantial, but results in a small cost per bullet for the end users. There are several significant manufacturers of ammunition. Each one would have to purchase at least one, if not more; laser engraving machines and material handlers. We have received estimates that each set of equipment would cost $300,000 to $500,000. A licensing fee will also be applied to each bullet sold. However, since there are approximately 10 billion bullets sold in the United States alone each year, the equipment costs, once amortized over the number of bullets sold, are insignificant. There will also be administrative costs for the retailers. All of these costs will most likely be passed onto the purchaser, making this a system paid for by user fees.

    How big a burden will the ACS be on retailers?

    The system of recording identification is easy in areas that have implemented bar coding of drivers licenses and other forms of identification. Manufacturers will include the code in the bar coding on each box of bullets, so retailers will be able to scan the box of bullets and the purchasers drivers license and have the required information without any significant expense of time.
    Why is the ACS better than ballistic fingerprinting?

    Coding System-

    Doesn't require any special training or equipment for law enforcement to use (other than a good magnifying glass).
    Determination of the code on the bullet doesn't require any special skills and is not subjective.
    Major manufacturers already use bar coding for inventory control and management. The code assigned to each box would be an easy addition to this system.

    The system makes it difficult for someone without special tools and training to circumvent.

    Information derived from the ACS will be contemporary, since it is estimated that there is no more than a 4-5 year supply of ammunition in circulation at any one time.

    By using the ACS system when engraving the bullet; the code is identifiable if as little as 20% of the base of the bullet is still intact.

    Ballistic Fingerprinting-
    The system currently being proposed will be expensive to create and maintain.

    The unique characteristics of the fingerprinting system are easy to alter.
    Regular use of a firearm will change the unique characteristics of a firearm.
    Judging the comparison of a bullet to the signature of a firearm requires a subjective determination which is prone to human error.

    Ballistic fingerprinting takes considerable time and is expensive to perform.
    Information isn't available on the millions of firearms already in existence. Information on new firearms will be outdated long before the firearm is no longer in use.

    How could the system be circumvented?

    The ACS can be circumvented by any of the following methods:

    Someone could cast their own bullets and load them themselves.
    A person could buy a coded bullet, disassemble it, file the number off, and reassemble the cartridge/bullet combination.

    Someone could buy a lifetime supply of ammunition before the ACS goes into effect.

    However, we would argue that the person who is going to hold up the corner convenience store is unlikely to do any of these things. Since the vast majority of gun crimes are crimes of passion, few people will ever consider a premeditated attempt to circumvent the proposed system.
    Does the ACS violate our Second Amendment rights?

    No. However, every effort should be used to be sensitive to the objections of gun rights advocates. The information that retailers obtain about the bullet purchaser should not be available to anyone but law enforcement.
    How does the system get implemented?

    As with most gun related laws, each state or country will need to legislate the requirement that the ACS be used. Our system of coding will allow an almost infinite number of codes and is easily understood. By requiring the use of our Coding System, each area will assure that there are no conflicts between manufacturers. A common system of coding will prevent duplication between areas, and avoid making the manufacturers implement several different coding systems.

    How many unique codes are available?

    There are 90 unique characters on a standard keyboard. We propose to use these characters in six columns in conjunction with three characters that will identify the beginning and end of the code sequence. This results in 1.6 trillion codes. Typically, bullets come in boxes of either 20 or 50 and different calibers of bullets can be assigned the same code, so the total number of bullets that can be coded before duplicating a code is as much as 637 trillion bullets. We could also use five characters for some bullets increasing the number of bullets before duplication to 744 trillion.

    Finally, if we use most of the 256 characters available in the standard character set, the number of codes becomes almost infinite.

    If you have any questions, concerns, or input, please contact Ammunition Coding System at:
    10002 Aurora Avenue North #4432
    Seattle, WA 98133
    phone: 888.743.3490
    fax: 425.743.1452
    Email: info@ammocoding.com

    Planning to research, evaluate or purchase product for yourself or your department? Check out PoliceOne's Product Research Categories to help you make an informed purchase.



    This message was brought to you by PoliceOne.com
    Thank you
  2. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Nov 19, 2003
    proud to be in AZ
    Good grief, Charlie Brown. Some people are too stupid to breathe free air. What a crock. I certainly hope wiser heads prevail and nuke this idea.
  3. deej

    deej Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    (Occupied) California Republic
  4. George S.

    George S. Member

    Jan 11, 2004
    Western WA
    This is a pipe dream by anti's. It does not address the issue or reloading and even if it did by somehow numbering bullets from suppliers, it doesn't take into accout those who cast lead bullets.

    The cost of the system is so high, it's beyond stupid and the cost to the states to build a computer system that would create a database of bullets brougt into a state for public sale would be in the tens of millions and take about 2 to 3 years to get running.

    The idea infers that ammo is only sold by stores that have computer systems that can tie into a large network and send data about the buyers. There are still a few small stores areound here that sell ammo where I get a hand written receipt if I decide to ask for one. No printing cash register, just pay my money and put the ammo box in a bag.

    This has been on here before and it was just as laughable then as it is now! :rolleyes:
  5. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

    Dec 25, 2002
    Do I see a wheelweight regulation on the horizon?
  6. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Jan 26, 2004
  7. answerguy

    answerguy Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Bay City Michigan
    How could the system be circumvented?

    Steal the ammo?
    Use a shotgun?
  8. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    The object is to make ammunition prohibitively expensive for commoners. It has nothing to do with solving crimes, still less preventing crime. It's all about disarming the commoners one step at a time.
  9. sigmaman

    sigmaman member

    Oct 22, 2004
    right now

    prisoners in many states are having there dna stored in databases
    soon rfid tags will be implanted on prisoners
    then one day it will be proposed that children born should also have rfid tags
    "so they cant be missing"
    eventually we will all be catalogued and tracked
    so marking bullets is kinda waste of time cause eventually they will know everything and every where we go if they want too its not a fantasy or conspiracy theory
    i think if your younger than 30 you will see it in your lifetime
  10. glock27

    glock27 Member

    Nov 19, 2004
    What about FRANGIBLE bullets. They are not cast or molded, but pressed. They basically transfer all their energy into the target and disinegrate upon impact.
  11. Selfdfenz

    Selfdfenz Member

    Jan 8, 2003
    Small-sky country, again
    Wal-Marts slogan for the '90s was "Falling Prices"

    Wal-Marts slogan for the new millenium should be "Tracking Devices"

  12. sigmaman

    sigmaman member

    Oct 22, 2004
    What about FRANGIBLE bullets. They are not cast or molded, but pressed. They basically transfer all their energy into the target and disinegrate upon impact.

    they already tag explosives with micro tags they can do it with bullets too
    and proponets of tagging systems are even thinking of taggin gun powder
  13. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Capitalism at its finest! Behind every burdensome legislative proposal there is money for someone...

    PS....Buy stock in the company if Arnie aint the California gov

  14. jimpeel

    jimpeel Member

    Jan 2, 2003
    Kimball, NE
    This is simply another case of a company trying to get their product mandated to the states and the consumer; just like the insurance companies, baby seat manufacturers, helmet manufacturers, etc.

    Always follow the money.

    They left out the circumvention of stealing the ammo or the ammo being in the stolen firearm when they stole it.
  15. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

    Sep 28, 2004
    Cape Cod
    :cuss: Nice to know that my girlfriend wouldn't be able to find out about those spontaneous lunch break trips to the range, but I think law enforcement is the one party to be most concerned about knowing (if it did matter, which it does not.)

    I think it's a good idea to keep a sleepy eye on this one, and if it does develop, run out and get that "lifetime supply of ammo" that all the other suspects of premeditated future crimes will be buying (and they are suspect, cause if they have nothing to hide, why not break down and buy the traceable rounds? They must be up to something...)
  16. cropcirclewalker

    cropcirclewalker member

    Apr 30, 2004
    In the Woods close to Arkansas
    Lest we forget, law enforcement is usually exempted from these people control laws. If you want to be a crook, just buy, borrow or steal your ammo from officer friendly. :cool:
  17. CarlS

    CarlS Member

    Nov 22, 2003
    Bunnell, Florida
    Amen! Well stated.
  18. Jrob24

    Jrob24 Member

    Dec 30, 2002
    In addition: buying ammo with a fake I.D. Smuggling ammunition from other countries :fire:

    I expect to see this implemented in CA, NJ, NY and MD within a couple years.
  19. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Jan 3, 2003
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    Jody - you just took the edge of an otherwise good shooting day!! Enjoyed a good IDPA this morning, and then I read this sorta stuff . <sigh> .... always something being promulgated ... I guess this one was predictable.

    Next thing ... they'll want a way to make an ''atomic'' signature on all heavy metals ... so ''they'' can also track our home cast bullets!!

    (Any classic ''U'' turns recently? LOL )
  20. Mk VII

    Mk VII Member

    Jan 7, 2003
    you could also pull the bullets and reload them into some other cartridge.
    This would also require milsup ammo sales to come to an end.
  21. Rabid Rabbit

    Rabid Rabbit Member

    Aug 19, 2004
    Can you say vaporware?

    This smells the same way as the dreaded Black Rhino ammo 10 years back. They haven't built a demo unit yet, they believe the cost is.... sounds like a fake company promoting a fake product, they hope will cause some laws to get passed or will comprimise this idea for something else less restrictive.
  22. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

    Jun 3, 2004
    The Copper Country, Michigan
    As Mk noticed, bye-bye to all surplus :fire:

    Whaddya wanna bet that if the ammo is stolen, the responsibility for restitution is placed on the retailer? after all, obviously they weren't properly storing the ammo
  23. biere

    biere Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    eastern tn
    Let me guess, the first rounds to go after are kind of rare and get some attention all ready. Perhaps the 50 bmg and maybe the 338 lapua?

    You know, they would never go after hunting ammo, at least until the went after everything else.

    This is the sort of post to dig up the next time some one asks why you buy your ammo by the case.
  24. Mikul

    Mikul Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    Go to the range and load up a bullet that's not too badly damaged in the backstop. I've seen plenty of bullets in the dirt that are not deformed except for the rifling.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page