Infamy of .38 Spl

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I am a giant hillbilly who looks like he does not have ten cents in his pocket. I drive a truck that is not worth $500. I am more comfortable with revolvers, since I have been shooting them since I was a teenager in the 1970's. In the bizarre scenario where someone tries to mug or carjack me, I feel very comfortable in putting 38 special sized holes into one or two (or maybe even three) people's mid torso area. After that I have a large knife.

If I were a LEO I would prefer one of my large-capacity semiautomatic pistols and I would have several full magazines on my belt. But I am not a LEO, and the chances of someone attacking me at random are extremely slim. As such, I feel quite comfortable with my Ruger LCR or my S&W Model 10 snub in my pocket or on my belt.
 
In the bizarre scenario where someone tries to mug or carjack me, I feel very comfortable in putting 38 special sized holes into one or two (or maybe even three) people's mid torso area...If I were a LEO I would prefer one of my large-capacity semiautomatic pistols and I would have several full magazines on my belt.
Your occupation would not affect in any way what would be needed to stop an attacker.

But I am not a LEO, and the chances of someone attacking me at random are extremely slim.
The fact that the likelihood is low will not have any impact on the event, should it happen.
 
Similar to Tallball, I carry a 38 special most days I am out and about. For me, it is all about compromise. A 38 special snubnose with a reload fits nicely into the low risk profile of my lifestyle. It also happens to be the firearm I shoot the best and have trained with most of my life.

To that end, I certainly realize that it may not be enough if I am faced with a deadly force encounter where escape is not an option. However, I also believe I am far from unarmed regardless of whether the 38 special deserves the title of infamous.
 
Your occupation would not affect in any way what would be needed to stop an attacker.

The fact that the likelihood is low will not have any impact on the event, should it happen.

I agree that lifestyle, occupation, probability, likelihood and other risk factors do not affect what is required to effect a stop.

I do not think that it follows that police equipment or tactics need to be adopted by everyone who wants to be the most effective at stopping attacks. One of the reasons police equipment is different was already pointed out in this thread: civilians succeed when they break contact with an attacker, while police are expected to pursue an attacker until they are stopped or apprehended. This does not mean that civilians need "less" effective tools. What it means is that civilians have an opportunity to prioritize different criteria, whereas the different requirements of law enforcement call for the prioritization of others.

Civilians often choose to prioritize criteria like "ease of carry," "small size," and "light weight." The LCP was the #1 seller for many years. While these criteria probably do trade-off some potential for effectiveness in stopping an attack, a civilian can also choose to prioritize other criteria. Some prioritize deep penetration and they carry 10mm, 44 Magnum, or 454 Casull because they live in BEAR country. Bear gun threads are a perennial thing, and whatever people are doing must be working because the number of people killed by bears in North America was 56 in the last 20 years, whereas 48 law enforcement officers were killed in felonious acts just in 2019.

If I were to suggest some practical criteria to prioritize over the often cited advantages of lightweight, higher capacity and faster reloads, they would be safety in concealed carry, ease of obtaining first shot hits, prevention of unintentional discharges during use of force incidents, and adaptation to individual needs. These criteria are not exclusive of semiautomatic pistols, but they also do not exclude revolvers. When criteria like these are considered above the needs that are unique to law enforcement, the revolver, and the .38 Special could be a good choice.

The double-action revolver without a manual safety is well regarded as one of the safest actions to carry concealed. No other action type has a lower risk of errors in the manual of arms or manipulation of a safety or unintentional discharges from garment snags, holster failures, and mishandling. While some semi-automatic pistols may present an equally low risk, the pistols police carry in a duty holster do not need to make concessions for risks in concealment. They have gone to increasingly shorter and lighter triggers.

A stable, heavy revolver with a long barrel and long sight radius, good sights or an optic and a consistent, smooth trigger is one of the best handguns to facilitate first shot hits. When 38 Special is used in a large, heavy revolver the shooter feels very little recoil and they're not likely to develop a flinch. They must master the double-action trigger, but this is a skill that once learned is not likely to be forgotten in the heat of an incident. A person is more likely to revert to flinching and other bad habits they learned practicing on a lightweight polymer semiautomatic with a reciprocating slide mass, especially if it was also a larger caliber -- like the .40 S&W that has been so popular with police for decades. When combined with lightweight plastic pistols, the result is increased difficulty. A lot of police agencies have acknowledged this and are hoping to solve it by switching to 9mm -- a move to a cartridge that is more like .38 Special.

Unintentional discharges during the course of incidents is a serious problem -- almost certainly more serious than discharges from everyday mishandling when the muzzle isn't likely to be pointed at someone. I believe the frequency of unintentional discharges during the use of force is alarming. We have identified certain phenomena that explain some of it such as startle response, trigger affirmation, sympathetic grasp reflex, and contralateral contraction. We've known for at least 20 years that training people to keep their finger off the trigger alone does not work. Long, heavy Double-Action triggers alone also do not solve this problem, but I believe they decrease the risk compared to striker-action triggers some of which have become very short and light indeed.

By "adaptation to individual needs" I'm referring to handguns that are better suited to people who may have difficulty operating some of the more popular pistols. The S&W EZ series is an obvious attempt to address this need. Difficulty racking slides is one issue, but people can have requirements for other adaptations as well. Some people only have the use of one hand or one arm. Some people have very weak strength in their hands and wrists. The double-action trigger of a revolver can be a challenge of its own, but revolvers are adapted to a number of different needs that pistols may not be and people can choose them for this reason over what the police choose for their reasons.

Large revolvers in 38 Special can be a good choice for some people in spite of being ill-suited to most police work. They can be good choices for meaningful reasons and not just because civilians somehow don't need the same level of attack-stopping effectiveness that law enforcement or the military does. Civilians can prioritize criteria that police and military are often compelled to compromise for their unique priorities.
 
I do not think that it follows that police equipment or tactics need to be adopted by everyone who wants to be the most effective at stopping attacks.
I don't either.

My point was that several shots fired rapidly until the assailant(s) stop is a requirement common toboth.

Civilians often choose to prioritize criteria like "ease of carry," "small size," and "light weight." The LCP was the #1 seller for many years.
True.

I don't think they serve very well in the drills used in defensive pistol traning--sevral shots fast into one target with some left for the next target, keeping all shots on target.

Better for backup, I think.

If I were to suggest some practical criteria to prioritize over the often cited advantages of lightweight, higher capacity and faster reloads, they would be safety in concealed carry, ease of obtaining first shot hits, prevention of unintentional discharges during use of force incidents, and adaptation to individual needs.
I would not accept low capacity. period.

The S&W EZ series is an obvious attempt to address this need.
It also has a grip safety, and capacity that I'll accept.

I carry one.
 
"The fact that the likelihood is low will not have any impact on the event, should it happen."

I am 6'6" and weigh 250 pounds. I dress rough and look rough. My 1970 model pickup truck has a homemade wooden flatbed. No one, even drunk and crazy, would choose me as a profitable victim. Even so, I have an LCR in my cargo pocket, right next to my hand, and my head is on a swivel in any parking lot.

My 38 special is much better protection in my pocket than any of my large autoloaders that are uncomfortable to carry and are thus left at home.

The thought that several attackers would whip out firearms at long range and start shooting at me is bizarre. They would receive the bounty of the $7 that is normally in my pocket, and the police response in my small town (nine square miles) is something like one minute.
 
"The fact that the likelihood is low will not have any impact on the event, should it happen."

I am 6'6" and weigh 250 pounds. I dress rough and look rough. My 1970 model pickup truck has a homemade wooden flatbed. No one, even drunk and crazy, would choose me as a profitable victim. Even so, I have an LCR in my cargo pocket, right next to my hand, and my head is on a swivel in any parking lot.

My 38 special is much better protection in my pocket than any of my large autoloaders that are uncomfortable to carry and are thus left at home.

The thought that several attackers would whip out firearms at long range and start shooting at me is bizarre. They would receive the bounty of the $7 that is normally in my pocket, and the police response in my small town (nine square miles) is something like one minute.
We need a double like button!
 
My 1970 model pickup truck has a homemade wooden flatbed. No one, even drunk and crazy, would choose me as a profitable victim.
A couple of really desperate people who badly need that truck and your keys right now might well do so.

My 38 special is much better protection in my pocket than any of my large autoloaders that are uncomfortable to carry and are thus left at home.
I once carried a five shot .38 in my pocket.

My eight-shot 9mm in a OWB holster is no larger; it is easier to access; it is more effective; and I wear it at home, but I never leave it there.

The thought that several attackers would whip out firearms at long range and start shooting at me is bizarre.
Yep.

I'm more concerned about the guys who innocently come around a pickup in a parking lot and charge from close range.

They would receive the bounty of the $7 that is normally in my pocket,
What would that mean to you?

and the police response in my small town (nine square miles) is something like one minute.
Unless you do defend yourself successfully, you would most likely be overcome before you could connect to them with your phone.

Try that sometime by calling someone else.
 
I agree that lifestyle, occupation, probability, likelihood and other risk factors do not affect what is required to effect a stop.

I do not think that it follows that police equipment or tactics need to be adopted by everyone who wants to be the most effective at stopping attacks. One of the reasons police equipment is different was already pointed out in this thread: civilians succeed when they break contact with an attacker, while police are expected to pursue an attacker until they are stopped or apprehended. This does not mean that civilians need "less" effective tools. What it means is that civilians have an opportunity to prioritize different criteria, whereas the different requirements of law enforcement call for the prioritization of others.

Civilians often choose to prioritize criteria like "ease of carry," "small size," and "light weight." The LCP was the #1 seller for many years. While these criteria probably do trade-off some potential for effectiveness in stopping an attack, a civilian can also choose to prioritize other criteria. Some prioritize deep penetration and they carry 10mm, 44 Magnum, or 454 Casull because they live in BEAR country. Bear gun threads are a perennial thing, and whatever people are doing must be working because the number of people killed by bears in North America was 56 in the last 20 years, whereas 48 law enforcement officers were killed in felonious acts just in 2019.

If I were to suggest some practical criteria to prioritize over the often cited advantages of lightweight, higher capacity and faster reloads, they would be safety in concealed carry, ease of obtaining first shot hits, prevention of unintentional discharges during use of force incidents, and adaptation to individual needs. These criteria are not exclusive of semiautomatic pistols, but they also do not exclude revolvers. When criteria like these are considered above the needs that are unique to law enforcement, the revolver, and the .38 Special could be a good choice.

The double-action revolver without a manual safety is well regarded as one of the safest actions to carry concealed. No other action type has a lower risk of errors in the manual of arms or manipulation of a safety or unintentional discharges from garment snags, holster failures, and mishandling. While some semi-automatic pistols may present an equally low risk, the pistols police carry in a duty holster do not need to make concessions for risks in concealment. They have gone to increasingly shorter and lighter triggers.

A stable, heavy revolver with a long barrel and long sight radius, good sights or an optic and a consistent, smooth trigger is one of the best handguns to facilitate first shot hits. When 38 Special is used in a large, heavy revolver the shooter feels very little recoil and they're not likely to develop a flinch. They must master the double-action trigger, but this is a skill that once learned is not likely to be forgotten in the heat of an incident. A person is more likely to revert to flinching and other bad habits they learned practicing on a lightweight polymer semiautomatic with a reciprocating slide mass, especially if it was also a larger caliber -- like the .40 S&W that has been so popular with police for decades. When combined with lightweight plastic pistols, the result is increased difficulty. A lot of police agencies have acknowledged this and are hoping to solve it by switching to 9mm -- a move to a cartridge that is more like .38 Special.

Unintentional discharges during the course of incidents is a serious problem -- almost certainly more serious than discharges from everyday mishandling when the muzzle isn't likely to be pointed at someone. I believe the frequency of unintentional discharges during the use of force is alarming. We have identified certain phenomena that explain some of it such as startle response, trigger affirmation, sympathetic grasp reflex, and contralateral contraction. We've known for at least 20 years that training people to keep their finger off the trigger alone does not work. Long, heavy Double-Action triggers alone also do not solve this problem, but I believe they decrease the risk compared to striker-action triggers some of which have become very short and light indeed.

By "adaptation to individual needs" I'm referring to handguns that are better suited to people who may have difficulty operating some of the more popular pistols. The S&W EZ series is an obvious attempt to address this need. Difficulty racking slides is one issue, but people can have requirements for other adaptations as well. Some people only have the use of one hand or one arm. Some people have very weak strength in their hands and wrists. The double-action trigger of a revolver can be a challenge of its own, but revolvers are adapted to a number of different needs that pistols may not be and people can choose them for this reason over what the police choose for their reasons.

Large revolvers in 38 Special can be a good choice for some people in spite of being ill-suited to most police work. They can be good choices for meaningful reasons and not just because civilians somehow don't need the same level of attack-stopping effectiveness that law enforcement or the military does. Civilians can prioritize criteria that police and military are often compelled to compromise for their unique priorities.

Imho that whole thing is summarized in a model 10 smith..
 
“My eight-shot 9mm in a OWB holster is no larger; it is easier to access; it is more effective; and I wear it at home, but I never leave it there.”

I can’t stand wearing a gun... let alone at home.

But I do carry my inferior .38 in a Sticky every day and go about my life, trusting the five little Hornady’s inside it.

It’s better than not carrying anything at all and fits comfortably into my lifestyle.

If I have to live constantly in a state of high alert to just be at home, then there is more to be concerned with than obsolete cartridges and bullet shapes.
 
"The fact that the likelihood is low will not have any impact on the event, should it happen."

I am 6'6" and weigh 250 pounds. I dress rough and look rough. My 1970 model pickup truck has a homemade wooden flatbed. No one, even drunk and crazy, would choose me as a profitable victim. Even so, I have an LCR in my cargo pocket, right next to my hand, and my head is on a swivel in any parking lot.

My 38 special is much better protection in my pocket than any of my large autoloaders that are uncomfortable to carry and are thus left at home.

The thought that several attackers would whip out firearms at long range and start shooting at me is bizarre. They would receive the bounty of the $7 that is normally in my pocket, and the police response in my small town (nine square miles) is something like one minute.

Desperate tweakers don't think like you do.
 
If I have to live constantly in a state of high alert to just be at home, then there is more to be concerned with than obsolete cartridges and bullet shapes.
I do not live in a high state of alert.

I carry at home for two reasons:
  1. The layout of my house is such that, if someone were to enter forcibly through almost any of the potential points of ingress, I would be hard pressed, or unable, to otherwise access a firearm unless I just happened to be near it at the time of the incident.
  2. I do not have to put it on before leaving and take it off and secure it upon returning.
The thread is about the .38 Special. I have never herd anyone contend that the cartridge is obsolete.
 
If I have to live constantly in a state of high alert to just be at home, then there is more to be concerned with than obsolete cartridges and bullet shapes

Thinking like this mischaracterizes the situation. In the event of a home invasion, your home is instantly transformed from a safe environment into a dangerous one.

Going from Condition White straight to Condition Red is a monumental task for the brain.
 
When I carry revolvers for self defense, I typically carry small .38 Specials. I was lucky enough to pick up a very neglected Smith and Wesson model 36 with a 3 inch barrel a few years ago. The internals and bore were largely in good shape, but the external surfaces were in awful condition, so I only paid $180 for this mechanically high quality vintage gun. Sanded off the rust and oiled it real good and now I have a pocket revolver that I never worry about scratching.
 
"Unless you do defend yourself successfully, you would most likely be overcome before you could connect to them with your phone."

The clerks at 7-11 would immediately call 911. Most of the employees at my local grocery store are ex-students of mine. I live in Texas. At the very least, half of the other customers at the stores I go to are armed. Apparently you have never lived in a small town where everyone knows everyone and most people CCW.
 
At the very least, half of the other customers at the stores I go to are armed. Apparently you have never lived in a small town where everyone knows everyone and most people CCW.
Off the topics of a one minute response time and the unrelate question of whether a .38 revolver would be a prudent defensive weapon, isn't it?
 
"The fact that the likelihood is low will not have any impact on the event, should it happen."

I am 6'6" and weigh 250 pounds. I dress rough and look rough. My 1970 model pickup truck has a homemade wooden flatbed. No one, even drunk and crazy, would choose me as a profitable victim. Even so, I have an LCR in my cargo pocket, right next to my hand, and my head is on a swivel in any parking lot.

My 38 special is much better protection in my pocket than any of my large autoloaders that are uncomfortable to carry and are thus left at home.

The thought that several attackers would whip out firearms at long range and start shooting at me is bizarre. They would receive the bounty of the $7 that is normally in my pocket, and the police response in my small town (nine square miles) is something like one minute.

6 foot 6 and 250 lbs is one big boy. Certainly your appearance alone must be intimidating. Backing that mass up with a 38 revolver and I'd say your reasonably safe as you go about your day to day life.

I had a chance to speak with two state troopers yesterday as they came into my business for lunch. They are good guys and I have known them for years. As our conversation moved away from some of the recent anti police sentiment we got talking about guns. Out of sheer curiosity I asked them both what they thought of the 38 special as a self defense.
 
"6 foot 6 and 250 lbs is one big boy. Certainly your appearance alone must be intimidating."

Thus I always use a pleasant tone of voice and am extremely polite to the ladies.

For me, 38 special is great. My long ape arms put my hand exactly at the grip of the LCR in my cargo shorts pocket. I can have it out and aimed in literally one second. I keep it loaded with some nasty 110 +P+. I could carry my Glock 43 or 26 instead, but I have been shooting revolvers my whole life and prefer them.

I put the LCRx grips on it so that it would fit my XXL hands better.


When the weather gets cooler I wear my 2" Model 10 OWB under a cover garment (unbuttoned flannel shirt).
 
Revolver vs. auto peeing match can go on, perhaps in another thread.
We all have some opinions, would like to express mine about thread topic - 38 spec.
I like it !
Working on downsizing our stuff with hope of retiring next year, including right sizing firearm collection.
Keeping three handguns. One is a custom short barrel encore, keep in my car. Second a FA83, my primary deer gun. Third is a S&W M10-14, utility gun. It has a just right feel sitting in my hand, it always seems to knock out the center of an on-edge clay bird at 25 steps. I know it is no powerhouse, but is pleasant to shoot with some slightly P+ handloads, also inexpensive. Plus I have a good stock of components.
OH, a fourth- keep an LCR in the pistol pocket of my motorcycle vest; forgot about that one.
Wonder why ?
 
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