I'm looking for some pros/cons of purchasing a 10mm auto in a 1911 config. I'm a big fan of the 45, but I like the idea of owning someting a little different as well. Here in MN the 10mm is technically legal for deer, I wouldn't plan on using it as a primary weapon, but would enjoy having it on me. It will possibly be carried daily. I'm not a big guy, but not shy about recoil either. Please assume I know nothing about the load (not far from the truth) and tell me what you can. Thanks...
Info needed, 10mm Auto
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HorseSoldier
Member
I have a 10mm Dan Wesson (commander sized Classic Bobtail) and it's a great pistol and a great caliber.
Recoil is not that bad at all with standard pressure kind of range ammo. With hotter stuff like Double Tap manufactured loads I do notice that recoil is more pronounced than, say, a 9mm or 45, but is still managable and not particularly punishing or anything (though I did up my recoil spring two pounds before shooting the Double Tap stuff).
Recoil is not that bad at all with standard pressure kind of range ammo. With hotter stuff like Double Tap manufactured loads I do notice that recoil is more pronounced than, say, a 9mm or 45, but is still managable and not particularly punishing or anything (though I did up my recoil spring two pounds before shooting the Double Tap stuff).
bmwguy
Member
I thought the power of 10 mm was more like a 41 magnum instead of .357 magnum?
mpmarty
Member
10mm Stats:
Average 200 gr load moves out at 1200 fps from a five inch barrel. This is NOT the double tap loading which greatly exceeds those figures. In a 1911 type pistol you are probably going to be looking at a Dan Wesson. Good gun. However I've got three 10mm pistols and far prefer the Tanfoglio Witness series for their stout construction, ergonomics and flexibility. I've got the full size standard, the compact and the Elite Match all three are all steel. I have a couple of 1911s but they are in 45acp not 10mm. I am not confident of the ability of the true 1911 style pistol to withstand frequent use of very high pressure 10mm loadings. The Witness which is a modification of the CZ75 is a somewhat more robust weapon, IMO.
Average 200 gr load moves out at 1200 fps from a five inch barrel. This is NOT the double tap loading which greatly exceeds those figures. In a 1911 type pistol you are probably going to be looking at a Dan Wesson. Good gun. However I've got three 10mm pistols and far prefer the Tanfoglio Witness series for their stout construction, ergonomics and flexibility. I've got the full size standard, the compact and the Elite Match all three are all steel. I have a couple of 1911s but they are in 45acp not 10mm. I am not confident of the ability of the true 1911 style pistol to withstand frequent use of very high pressure 10mm loadings. The Witness which is a modification of the CZ75 is a somewhat more robust weapon, IMO.
jfh
Member.
I own a few different EAAs, including a 10mm top end and, more recently, a 10 mm Elite Match version. And, I also own two 1911s in 10mm--a Springfield Armory Omega (6", both ported and unported barrels) and a current model Kimber Stainless Target II.
Right now, I would agree that the two 1911 10s to look at are the Dan Wesson and the Kimber. For deer hunting, I would look long and hard at the EAA Witness Hunter, however, with its 6" slide and barrel setup and the receiver drilled for sight mounts.
While I generally agree with mpmarty, I do not think that the 1911 frame is inadequate for frequent use with max loads--it really depends on have the gun set up properly with the appropriate springs. Early 1911 frame (notably the early Colt Delta Elites) had their problems, but my SA Omega shows none of those kinds of problems.
Here's a link in which I review the two platforms in 10mm. While it doesn't address issues for hunting, I would agree with Marty that the EAA package would, for me, be preferable as hunting pistol
Right now, I would agree that the two 1911 10s to look at are the Dan Wesson and the Kimber. For deer hunting, I would look long and hard at the EAA Witness Hunter, however, with its 6" slide and barrel setup and the receiver drilled for sight mounts.
While I generally agree with mpmarty, I do not think that the 1911 frame is inadequate for frequent use with max loads--it really depends on have the gun set up properly with the appropriate springs. Early 1911 frame (notably the early Colt Delta Elites) had their problems, but my SA Omega shows none of those kinds of problems.
Here's a link in which I review the two platforms in 10mm. While it doesn't address issues for hunting, I would agree with Marty that the EAA package would, for me, be preferable as hunting pistol
6Covered
Member
Ahhh 10mm's. What a sickness.
First I started out with a S&W 1006. Wow what fun. Oh look a 1066. Yeah I NEED that to.
Ouch, a little big to carry. What's this? A Glock 29? Oh yeah, just the ticket. Now what about that 610? Oh that would be good...
I've been shooting handguns for 25+ years. Never saw the need to re-load. Along comes that first Muther 10mm. Yikes, kinda pricey. Can't find enough different sizes to shoot and compare. Wow these things are FUN.
Buy the reloading equipment. Start cranking our boolets. Shoot a BUNCH more. Save $. NOT.
Don't, repeat DO NOT drink the 10mm water!!! There is no return.
Seriously, I find the 10mm to be the most versatile round out there. From mild to roasting hot. You choose.
Get one. You won't believe what you've been missing.
6.
First I started out with a S&W 1006. Wow what fun. Oh look a 1066. Yeah I NEED that to.
Ouch, a little big to carry. What's this? A Glock 29? Oh yeah, just the ticket. Now what about that 610? Oh that would be good...
I've been shooting handguns for 25+ years. Never saw the need to re-load. Along comes that first Muther 10mm. Yikes, kinda pricey. Can't find enough different sizes to shoot and compare. Wow these things are FUN.
Buy the reloading equipment. Start cranking our boolets. Shoot a BUNCH more. Save $. NOT.
Don't, repeat DO NOT drink the 10mm water!!! There is no return.
Seriously, I find the 10mm to be the most versatile round out there. From mild to roasting hot. You choose.
Get one. You won't believe what you've been missing.
6.
jfh
Member.
"...I find the 10mm to be the most versatile round out there. From mild to roasting hot. You choose...."
And there is the essence of this round: With its flat trajectory, you can download it / upload it, run it the way you want.
Jim H.
And there is the essence of this round: With its flat trajectory, you can download it / upload it, run it the way you want.
Jim H.
bigcim
Member
jfh How do you like the springfield
Nomad101bc
Member
Whats the price of 10mm vs .40 S&W?
jfh
Member.
bigcim, the Springfield has been a good pistol, in its own way.
As you probably know, the Omega has the Peters Stahl top end--a heavy slide with a dual external extractor setup and a linkless action lockup. Function has been fine for me, but sometimes these top ends have been problematic. I've had no recurring problems, save for it taking some effort to fine tune the extractors for reliable operation. And, one time the linkless rod broke--SA said they had never heard of such a thing--but I note that the last rods they used had been modified to avoid this problem.
I had my receiver built up with aftermarket parts by SA--beavertail, match STI trigger, extended safety, etc., so it really is a rare version.
In shooting, it was remarkably easy to find sweet spot reloads for it, and those sweet spots show up with more than just one powder. It would handle the highest-power loads I built for it effortlessly, but sticky extraction would show up early. The linkless design makes tuning it a factory-gunsmith job; it's unusual enough that most 'smiths don't know how to go at it, I think. Parts are readily available from Germany, but at high, high prices.
Overall, I now consider it a collector's item, so it is relegated to the safe while I shoot the EAA and the Kimber.
Jim H.
As you probably know, the Omega has the Peters Stahl top end--a heavy slide with a dual external extractor setup and a linkless action lockup. Function has been fine for me, but sometimes these top ends have been problematic. I've had no recurring problems, save for it taking some effort to fine tune the extractors for reliable operation. And, one time the linkless rod broke--SA said they had never heard of such a thing--but I note that the last rods they used had been modified to avoid this problem.
I had my receiver built up with aftermarket parts by SA--beavertail, match STI trigger, extended safety, etc., so it really is a rare version.
In shooting, it was remarkably easy to find sweet spot reloads for it, and those sweet spots show up with more than just one powder. It would handle the highest-power loads I built for it effortlessly, but sticky extraction would show up early. The linkless design makes tuning it a factory-gunsmith job; it's unusual enough that most 'smiths don't know how to go at it, I think. Parts are readily available from Germany, but at high, high prices.
Overall, I now consider it a collector's item, so it is relegated to the safe while I shoot the EAA and the Kimber.
Jim H.
bigcim
Member
Im going today to start my 10 day waiting period on a kimber eclipse 10mm
I have had it on hold for 30 days, becuase in Ca you have to wait 30 days between handgun purchases.
I wasnt aware though that springfield made a 10mm or else I would have looked into it more. I have been more than happy with my two Xd's
I have had it on hold for 30 days, becuase in Ca you have to wait 30 days between handgun purchases.
I wasnt aware though that springfield made a 10mm or else I would have looked into it more. I have been more than happy with my two Xd's
For a 1911 I would stick with the 200 gr. bullets. Lighters loads may punish the pistol a little too much for my taste. Not to mention yourself.
Of course get a revolver and use full-power loads. That's what I plan to do.
Hey, the 10mm is the best kept secret in shooting.
Tis not a sickness sir. But a revelation and a wonder as to why bother with all the others?
Of course get a revolver and use full-power loads. That's what I plan to do.
Hey, the 10mm is the best kept secret in shooting.
Tis not a sickness sir. But a revelation and a wonder as to why bother with all the others?
The Colt Delta Elite handles hot 10mm loads very well provided you replace the factory recoil system. The original factory guide rod had a small rubber bushing sandwiched on the back end and they used a dual recoil spring setup. This rubber bushing self-destructed after as few as 100 rounds.
The fix for this is to replace the OEM setup with a Stainless Steel or Tungsten (3.25oz) FLGR and a 24LB - 26LB recoil spring for the hot loads or a 22LB - 23LB recoil spring for the std 10mm loads.
I purchased mine NIB in 1994 # DE34xxx and the first thing I did before firing a round was to Deep 6 the OEM recoil system. My pistol has several thousand rounds through it now with no ill effect as far as I can tell. I kept the factory 23LB mainspring but that could be increased also if your loads are super hot handloads.
On another note the Glock 20, while not a 1911 format, might be woth looking into also.
The fix for this is to replace the OEM setup with a Stainless Steel or Tungsten (3.25oz) FLGR and a 24LB - 26LB recoil spring for the hot loads or a 22LB - 23LB recoil spring for the std 10mm loads.
I purchased mine NIB in 1994 # DE34xxx and the first thing I did before firing a round was to Deep 6 the OEM recoil system. My pistol has several thousand rounds through it now with no ill effect as far as I can tell. I kept the factory 23LB mainspring but that could be increased also if your loads are super hot handloads.
On another note the Glock 20, while not a 1911 format, might be woth looking into also.
Double Tap .357 Magnum Vs. 10 MM
Here's How Double Tap .357 Magnum & 10 mm Stack Up...
1) .357 Magnum, 1600 fps, 710 ft. lbs., 125 gr Gold Dot
2) 10 mm, 1600 fps, 767 ft. lbs., 135 gr Nosler
3) .357 Magnum, 1400 fps, 688 ft. lbs., 158 gr Gold Dot
4) 10mm, 1475 fps, 750 ft. lbs, 155 gr Gold Dot
5) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast
6) 10mm, 1300 fps, 750 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast
Safe To Say...
10 mm = To .44 Magnum? No!
10 mm = To .41 Magnum? Maybe...
10 mm = To .357 Magnum? Hell, yes!
I shoot 10 mm with my G21 and a KKM Conversion Barrel. The entire conversion "kit" consists of:
. KKM .45 ACP : 10 mm Conversion Barrel
. 10 mm Magazines
. LWD Stainless Steel Guide Rod
. LWD 22 lb. Spring
No other changes (extractors, etc.) required. The conversion can be done in seconds right at the range, with drop in parts.
Reliability in 10 mm mode is 90% +, so far, but I'm still tweaking it.
Note: Reliability in .45 ACP mode is 100%
My favorite load is the Double Tap 135 grain Nosler, at 1600 fps, and 767 ft/lbs
I'm going to try a 20 lb. spring, and see if that eliminates the occasional fail-to feed with that ammo.
No other problems to report...
The conversion got me into a caliber I won't shoot too often, at about 1/2 the cost of a new 10 mm rig.
--Ray
Here's How Double Tap .357 Magnum & 10 mm Stack Up...
1) .357 Magnum, 1600 fps, 710 ft. lbs., 125 gr Gold Dot
2) 10 mm, 1600 fps, 767 ft. lbs., 135 gr Nosler
3) .357 Magnum, 1400 fps, 688 ft. lbs., 158 gr Gold Dot
4) 10mm, 1475 fps, 750 ft. lbs, 155 gr Gold Dot
5) .357 Magnum, 1200 fps, 640 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast
6) 10mm, 1300 fps, 750 ft. lbs., 200 gr Hardcast
Safe To Say...
10 mm = To .44 Magnum? No!
10 mm = To .41 Magnum? Maybe...
10 mm = To .357 Magnum? Hell, yes!
I shoot 10 mm with my G21 and a KKM Conversion Barrel. The entire conversion "kit" consists of:
. KKM .45 ACP : 10 mm Conversion Barrel
. 10 mm Magazines
. LWD Stainless Steel Guide Rod
. LWD 22 lb. Spring
No other changes (extractors, etc.) required. The conversion can be done in seconds right at the range, with drop in parts.
Reliability in 10 mm mode is 90% +, so far, but I'm still tweaking it.
Note: Reliability in .45 ACP mode is 100%
My favorite load is the Double Tap 135 grain Nosler, at 1600 fps, and 767 ft/lbs
I'm going to try a 20 lb. spring, and see if that eliminates the occasional fail-to feed with that ammo.
No other problems to report...
The conversion got me into a caliber I won't shoot too often, at about 1/2 the cost of a new 10 mm rig.
--Ray
wally
Member
Hmmm.....
The box of Double Tap 200gr XTP JHP I have on the shelf claims 1250 fps. Real guns don't usually get the factory's claimed velocities, but even if it does I'd hardly say it greatly exceeds your "typical" 200gr load.
--wally.
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After creating this thread, I couldn't wait to see what you guys said, I left work early and made it up to Cabela's. I've got a Dan Wesson Bobtail in 10mm on hold for me, just waiting to the paperwork.
Seeing all the positive responses is very encouraging. I was a little worried. I'm a fairly competent rifle reloader, but new to handguns loads. Any major tricks I need to know? I saw a box of American Eagle in 10mm for about $28, Can I assume that reloading will make that much cheaper?
Thanks again to everyone...
Seeing all the positive responses is very encouraging. I was a little worried. I'm a fairly competent rifle reloader, but new to handguns loads. Any major tricks I need to know? I saw a box of American Eagle in 10mm for about $28, Can I assume that reloading will make that much cheaper?
Thanks again to everyone...
Love those bobtail guns. Don't own one yet, but man, they're on my list. DW guns come really tight per my readings, so expect some break in work at the range.
You might dig about the DWs in here for more reading material.I recommend Double Tap for economy and power. You get 50 rounds per box and they are typically at full tilt loading, whereas the Federal plinker ammo and the like is usually loaded to 40S&W specs.
I love my S&W 1076 and kinda like my jammomatic Witness. If it didn't jam, it would be my favorite because the trigger is really great and the SA pull is wonderful. I suspect in the Single Action format of the DW, it'll be a nice tack driver for you considering the pride DW has into their guns.
If you really catch the bug bad, look into Fusion Firearms. The president of Dan Wesson went out on his own and the 10mm is one of the options you have via that avenue. Pricey, but you're into custom stuff at those prices.
10mmtalk.com is an excellent resource. And oh yeah, if you're not reloading already, better put it on the horizon if you want to shoot this round a lot. Also, finding brass is a bit more of a challenge because this caliber really wings out from the auto with zeal.
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Big Boomer
Member
well you could always throw out 10mm = 357 sig too...
And although I like the round don't forget about the 45 Super as well. Same numbers bigger hole
And although I like the round don't forget about the 45 Super as well. Same numbers bigger hole
jfh
Member.
"...I'm a fairly competent rifle reloader, but new to handguns loads. Any major tricks I need to know? I saw a box of American Eagle in 10mm for about $28, Can I assume that reloading will make that much cheaper?"
I've built 1000s of rounds of 10mm ammo, most of it milder cast bullet stuff. I use lee dies, and I recommend the 4-die configuration, which will make it easier to tweak the LOA and the (taper) crimp for good operation. (I assume you have more than a SS press.)
Because of the broad range of loads that can be built out of the 10mm, I recommend you buy at least some new brass. Starline is good, and readily available. Primers are typically standard Large Primers; I prefer WLPs.
For softer loads, 170-175 gr LSWCs under about 5.2 gr of 231, using a WSP, should be fine for a target load; tweak as needed for accuracy. WSF is another fine powder. For higher-end loads, a lot of 10mm reloaders like AA#7. That meters poorly for me in my Lee Auto Disk measure (accurate, but leaks), so I am going to try Ramshot's silhouette. Apparently 800-x is the speed freak's dream, but it's a nightmare to meter.
Mastercastbullets.com sells 180 LTCs economically. Depending on what you do to break in your pistol, I would also recommend running a few hundred rounds of TMJs through it. 180 gr. should be fine.
Using new cases, a current cost of 8 cents for a lead bullet and amortizing the cases over ten reloads (much longer with softballs, much shorter with hotrods), my guesstimate is that you can reload with good ammo for about $7.00-8.00 / 50 of the lead, about $12.00-13.00 for the LTCs.
If you are not set up for handgun reloading at all--read this thread and adjust as needed for what you own. The only real "push" I would make is that if you do not have a turret press, get one. Semiauto pistols suck up ammo.
Finally, once you sort out your new pistol a bit and know what kind of loads you want to generally shoot, have some other weight springs on hand, or a couple of the variable-weights, and tweak the recoil action. Meanwhile, watch for bashing at the slide stop notch as an indicator that your spring and loads are not properly matched.
Jim H.
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wally
Member
If its failing like mine did, nose up jams, the mags are losing control of the rounds under recoil. If you squeeze the feed lips in a bit like I did, it could solve your problem too.
See my thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=305870 where I detail what I did. If you only have a few mags you can file the sides of the followers to compensate for the narrower lips so the slide locks back on the last shot instead of building up the follower with epoxy like I detail in the thread. I've done both ways, but the epoxy was easier for doing a bunch of mags at once.
--wally.
Big Boomer Said, In Part...
"And although I like the round don't forget about the 45 Super as well. Same numbers bigger hole..."
Good point! Here are some stats I've pulled up, as available on line...
ACE CUSTOM .45 Super:
185 Gr @ 1300 -1400 FPS
230 Gr @ 1100 - 1200 FPS
BUFFALO BORE .45 SUPER:
185 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 694 ft. lbs.
200 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps
Muzzle Energy: 639 ft. lbs.
230 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps
Muzzle Energy: 618 ft. lbs.
230 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps
Muzzle Energy: 618 ft. lbs.
DOUBLE TAP 10 MM:
Bullet: 135 Gr Nosler JHP
Ballistics: 1600 fps, 767/ft lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 155 Gr Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics: 1475 fps, 750/ft lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 180 Gr Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics: 1300 fps, 676/ft lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 200 Gr Hardcast Flat Nose
Ballistics: 1300 fps, 750 ft/lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Beartooth
Ballistics: 1300 fps, 750 ft/lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 230gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
Ballistics: 1120 fps, 641 ft/lbs - Glock 20
GEORGA ARMS .460 ROWLAND:
185 Gr Nosler @ 1550 fps
185 Gr JHP @ 1400 fps
Note: The Glock 21 can be set up for .45 Super and .460 Rowland as well.
--Ray
"And although I like the round don't forget about the 45 Super as well. Same numbers bigger hole..."
Good point! Here are some stats I've pulled up, as available on line...
ACE CUSTOM .45 Super:
185 Gr @ 1300 -1400 FPS
230 Gr @ 1100 - 1200 FPS
BUFFALO BORE .45 SUPER:
185 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 694 ft. lbs.
200 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps
Muzzle Energy: 639 ft. lbs.
230 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps
Muzzle Energy: 618 ft. lbs.
230 Gr Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps
Muzzle Energy: 618 ft. lbs.
DOUBLE TAP 10 MM:
Bullet: 135 Gr Nosler JHP
Ballistics: 1600 fps, 767/ft lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 155 Gr Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics: 1475 fps, 750/ft lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 180 Gr Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics: 1300 fps, 676/ft lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 200 Gr Hardcast Flat Nose
Ballistics: 1300 fps, 750 ft/lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Beartooth
Ballistics: 1300 fps, 750 ft/lbs - Glock 20
Bullet: 230gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
Ballistics: 1120 fps, 641 ft/lbs - Glock 20
GEORGA ARMS .460 ROWLAND:
185 Gr Nosler @ 1550 fps
185 Gr JHP @ 1400 fps
Note: The Glock 21 can be set up for .45 Super and .460 Rowland as well.
--Ray
Reloads In Glocks
If you're going to shoot reloaded ammo with a Glock 20 or Glock 29, use of an aftermarket barrel is strongly advised.
Part of the Glock's outstanding relaibility in all environmental extremes, is due to the intentional, somewhat loose tolerances of the firing chamber. This feature makes the firing chamber unsuitable for reloads, as the brass cases are permitted to bulge beyond safe specifications for continued use.
Bar-Sto, Storm Lake, KKM, Lone Wolf, all make suitable barrels/chambers for safely shooting 10 mm reloads in Glock pistols.
--Ray
If you're going to shoot reloaded ammo with a Glock 20 or Glock 29, use of an aftermarket barrel is strongly advised.
Part of the Glock's outstanding relaibility in all environmental extremes, is due to the intentional, somewhat loose tolerances of the firing chamber. This feature makes the firing chamber unsuitable for reloads, as the brass cases are permitted to bulge beyond safe specifications for continued use.
Bar-Sto, Storm Lake, KKM, Lone Wolf, all make suitable barrels/chambers for safely shooting 10 mm reloads in Glock pistols.
--Ray
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