I believe you missed the point. Yes, you do not need to crimp in a 4th step a lot of times (Sometimes you do), so you don't need the extra FCD or whatever brand of crimp die, but the point was the "post sizing" part is not needed, whether you choose to crimp and seat together, or crimp separately. If you choose to crimp in a fourth step (separately from seating) then you do need a fourth die, whether you choose a Lee FCD or a Lee crimp only die with no "post sizing" feature, or a RCBS, Redding etc crimp only die.
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RustyFN
Member
I probably did. I'm like you and feel this subject is getting very old. It's hard to believe if somebody did a search for FCD they wouldn't have at least a dozen results. My problem with the subject is I load three pistol calibers with a FCD and none of my ammo gets post sized. I have friends that use them also and don't rely on the FCD to fix their ammo either. It's frustrating to keep trying to make people understand that the FCD doesn't post size every round only one that is out of spec. Also it seems that most people forget it's a crimp die and think it only post sizes. I have loaded thousands of rounds of 9mm, 38 spcl and 45 auto with FCD's and only had two rounds get post sized. Believe it or not they were both 9mm FMJ rounds. OK rant over.
Everybody have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Yearsnuffy
Member
Walkalong, I can't resist either, especially when I strongly disagree to statements like this;
First there are three variations of the lee final crimp die, two for handguns, one for rifles. Second, as Rusty said it only post sizes rounds that are out of spec. Your statement makes it sound like it post sizes every round, that's simply not the case,(no pun intended). As Walkalong said, I too think lee has some quality control problems with the inside diameter of the carbide ring, it MAY be undersized so it WILL post size even normal rounds. If that happens, return it to lee, they'll correct it.
That's just plain wrong! You make it sound like both dies are the same inside diameter. They're not! The final crimp die's carbide ring is supposed to be the same size as a saami chamber drawing, minimal size to chamber in even a match chamber.
Some say the FCD is simply a mistake eraser. So what mistakes are we talking about? Instead of condemning the FCD as a shortcut to ammo that simply functions, how about explaining the mistakes that lead to bulged rounds that might need such a correction.
I too am tired of all the lee bashing that goes on here and on other forums. I don't know if it's elitism or just what causes it. I'll recommend lee to a new loader every time. It may not have that prestigious name or the polish that the extra money buys, but it'll work and work well. I wonder if it's envy, because Richard Lee has the genius to create things like the FCD, collet neck die, a classic turret? Or the "better than rockchucker" lee classic cast?
First there are three variations of the lee final crimp die, two for handguns, one for rifles. Second, as Rusty said it only post sizes rounds that are out of spec. Your statement makes it sound like it post sizes every round, that's simply not the case,(no pun intended). As Walkalong said, I too think lee has some quality control problems with the inside diameter of the carbide ring, it MAY be undersized so it WILL post size even normal rounds. If that happens, return it to lee, they'll correct it.
That's just plain wrong! You make it sound like both dies are the same inside diameter. They're not! The final crimp die's carbide ring is supposed to be the same size as a saami chamber drawing, minimal size to chamber in even a match chamber.
Some say the FCD is simply a mistake eraser. So what mistakes are we talking about? Instead of condemning the FCD as a shortcut to ammo that simply functions, how about explaining the mistakes that lead to bulged rounds that might need such a correction.
I too am tired of all the lee bashing that goes on here and on other forums. I don't know if it's elitism or just what causes it. I'll recommend lee to a new loader every time. It may not have that prestigious name or the polish that the extra money buys, but it'll work and work well. I wonder if it's envy, because Richard Lee has the genius to create things like the FCD, collet neck die, a classic turret? Or the "better than rockchucker" lee classic cast?
jcwit
member
I go along with this statement however I have little use for the FCD, Lee lock rings, their powder scale, or their sq. plastic die storage boxes "this last is immaterial tho really". Their scale works but is way to light for me to use with my shaking. And the ONLY lock rings I like are the split Hornady rings. Other than these few items I believe Lee offers excellant value.
With all this discussion I'm going to get my machinest tools out and measure the carbide ring in my FCD that I no longer have any use for, but we shall see.
1SOW
Member
jcwit: Thanks. Interested in the measurement.
So true, but the way some people post it sounds like they think they are. Maybe it's just their lack of ability to describe things, but it is certain to confuse folks who are not familiar with what the die is and what it is supposed to do.
I hope no one thinks I am a Lee basher. I often recommend Lee dies to beginners, despite my not being a FCD (for pistols) fan.
Mine for .45 ACP is right at .470, but all I have for measuring ID is a caliper, and that is not the best way.
David Wile
Member
Oh, come on Snuffy. Give me a break, and not my leg either.
I think you are wrong about Lee bashing. I think Lee is very solidly in place in the reloading market from what I can tell by all the folks on the forum that obviously have Lee presses. Even I swear by the Lee hand primer tool and the Lee powder dippers. When it comes to the Lee Factory Crimp Die, however, I think it is fair game to criticize it. I'm not the first person who said the the Lee Factory Crimp Die was a solution looking for a problem. I didn't need one fifty years ago, and I still don't need one today. To hear some folks talk about it, I don't see how they ever reloaded ammo before the Lee FCD. I don't buy it, but there are a lot of folks who swear by them. Then again someone else already said that Lee does a very good job of advertising and telling folks how much they need the FCD.
Geez Snuffy, I thought you were as old as I am. Whatever did you do before Richard Lee's genius gave us the FCD? And there you go picking on RCBS saying the Lee Classic Cast is better than the RockChucker. Do you realize how old the RockChucker is? Even I could design a press today that would improve on the RockChucker's shortcomings, and I am no genius. I will say this though, I still have and use my old RockChucker, and I also have a couple of RCBS Juniors that I still use occasionally.
Richard Lee is an American success story. He markets his products to a certain niche of the reloading market, and he does it very well. It seems to me his niche is growing every year, but I still think the FCD is a matter of selling the sizzle like the RV folks with the under-cabinet paper plate holders.
Is it getting cold enough for you up there in Wisconsin? I'm down here in Pennsylvania, and I am already freezing. As soon as Christmas is over, I'm heading for my camper in Avon Park, Florida, and if you keep picking on me, I might guilty enought to have to buy one of those dumb paper plate holders.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
I think you are wrong about Lee bashing. I think Lee is very solidly in place in the reloading market from what I can tell by all the folks on the forum that obviously have Lee presses. Even I swear by the Lee hand primer tool and the Lee powder dippers. When it comes to the Lee Factory Crimp Die, however, I think it is fair game to criticize it. I'm not the first person who said the the Lee Factory Crimp Die was a solution looking for a problem. I didn't need one fifty years ago, and I still don't need one today. To hear some folks talk about it, I don't see how they ever reloaded ammo before the Lee FCD. I don't buy it, but there are a lot of folks who swear by them. Then again someone else already said that Lee does a very good job of advertising and telling folks how much they need the FCD.
Geez Snuffy, I thought you were as old as I am. Whatever did you do before Richard Lee's genius gave us the FCD? And there you go picking on RCBS saying the Lee Classic Cast is better than the RockChucker. Do you realize how old the RockChucker is? Even I could design a press today that would improve on the RockChucker's shortcomings, and I am no genius. I will say this though, I still have and use my old RockChucker, and I also have a couple of RCBS Juniors that I still use occasionally.
Richard Lee is an American success story. He markets his products to a certain niche of the reloading market, and he does it very well. It seems to me his niche is growing every year, but I still think the FCD is a matter of selling the sizzle like the RV folks with the under-cabinet paper plate holders.
Is it getting cold enough for you up there in Wisconsin? I'm down here in Pennsylvania, and I am already freezing. As soon as Christmas is over, I'm heading for my camper in Avon Park, Florida, and if you keep picking on me, I might guilty enought to have to buy one of those dumb paper plate holders.
Best wishes,
Dave Wile
RustyFN
Member
David I'm not saying anybody is bashing Lee and I don't really care if they are. The point I am trying to make is a lot of people forget that it is a crimp die and think it only post sizes. By your statement it looks like you are one of them. A lot of people including me like to seat and crimp separate and believe it or not the C in FCD stands for crimp. If you don't like to crimp separate then don't, that's up to you. But for those of us that like to I don't see a problem. Just because people loaded a certain way 50 years ago doesn't mean we have to load that way today. Things improve over time.
Reloaders have so much more to choose from these days. A jillion more powders, more products from more companies. Nice reasonably priced competition dies that would have been custom back when. The reloader of today is just spoiled rotten with choices.
That said, not all new products are improvements, or even as good.
I never bash the FCD die user. I do, however, give the die, its concept, and its misuse a hard time.
That said, not all new products are improvements, or even as good.
Some of them would definitely run into trouble David, but, like all older reloaders, as you know, they would have figured it out without needing the FCD die.
I never bash the FCD die user. I do, however, give the die, its concept, and its misuse a hard time.
243winxb
Member
Lee FCD LOL
Hey Walkalong, you should have stuck with this. > Lee products for the most part are poor quality and cheap. IMO 
And yes i have used there Hammer Loaders , bullet molds, dies, shotgun loader, and more. 
Buy quality first, it pays in the long run. For a person that is going to only load a max of 20-50 rounds a year, Lee is fine.
Hey Walkalong, you should have stuck with this. >
lol
Lee products for the most part are poor quality and cheap. IMO And yes i have used there Hammer Loaders , bullet molds, dies, shotgun loader, and more. Buy quality first, it pays in the long run. For a person that is going to only load a max of 20-50 rounds a year, Lee is fine. jcwit
member
OK dug the tools out this morning and using a calibers, then using a small hole gauge and measuring with a mike, I came up with .471 using the calibers, using the small hole gage and mike I got .4697. My edition of "The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions" confers with the .45 ACP drawing supplied by Walkalong, .473 at case mouth, making the carbide insert undersize.
BTW Yes I did throughly clean the insert before measuring.
BTW Yes I did throughly clean the insert before measuring.
jcwit
member
Sorry, but thats just an opinion.
Wonder how I've managed to reload the thousands of rounds a year that I have done with Lee equipment. However they do not have any bragging rights or snob appeal
jcwit got me curious so i dug out & measured the id of my 38/357 fcd ring using a ball gage. expanded ball mic'd 9.56 mm (0.3764") and calip'd 0.377". chamber spec (from Lee diagram) is 0.379" so mine also appears a few thousandths too tight.
hmmm
hmmm
right brass is springy but lead's not. fitting 358" sized bullets into their cases results in a my cartridge measuring .377" in diameter. though not tested, i'm sure this die will wreck my .359" bullets. don't know why S&W machines their throats so big.
ranger335v
Member
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"Fears of 'damaging' accuracy with the post-crimping ring are greatly over-rated," ----- I disagree. That doesn't mean it will do it for every situation. It will not, but it can.
I thought that was what I said. ??
"Quote: the problems it fixes are a much greater disadvantage than any small changes on targets." --- I assume you meant "advantage".
No, I meant what I said but poorly worded, as you indicate. What I meant is of the two (potenitial) disadvantages of the L-FCD, I prefer the one of slightly reducing the bullet diameter if that's required for chambering. Accuarcy doesn't matter if the ammo can't be chambered.
Does Lee advertise? If so, I haven't noticed. But then I have hardly bothered with gun magazines for maybe 20 or so years, it's virtually all puff and fluff with little meat in them for a LOONG time now.
I thought that was what I said. ??
"Quote: the problems it fixes are a much greater disadvantage than any small changes on targets." --- I assume you meant "advantage".
No, I meant what I said but poorly worded, as you indicate. What I meant is of the two (potenitial) disadvantages of the L-FCD, I prefer the one of slightly reducing the bullet diameter if that's required for chambering. Accuarcy doesn't matter if the ammo can't be chambered.
Does Lee advertise? If so, I haven't noticed. But then I have hardly bothered with gun magazines for maybe 20 or so years, it's virtually all puff and fluff with little meat in them for a LOONG time now.
This reply from http://robleatham.com/blog/2008/11/03/9mm-minor-part-2/
Sums it up for some folks, me included exactly why the FCD can be a hindrance, not a help, especially with case walls on the thick side and a lot of cast bullets:
ScottShepherd says:
July 8th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Great info Rob. thank you. i have also been working on heavy bullet, fast powder setups in 45. It is very noticeable in the sound of the shot. Also great info when we spoke at lunch after drillmasters. i found that the lee crimp die was sizing .451″ bullets down to .449″ in some cases. .358 in super for revolver was down to .355″ and loose in the case below the crimp. did some accuracy tests with lee crimp and dillon crimp and was shocked at the difference. I became aware of the lack of accuracy at the last drillmasters, i knew the sights were there on some of the shots that scored poor. groups are at least 50% smaller and in the lighter .358 bullets they are 75% smaller. Thank you for unknowlingly helping me with this.
I count on the case to have a bulge so I know neck tension is good for all my handgun loads, and that the .358"/.359" bullets for 9mm and .38 Special, .453" for .45 Auto, and .431" for .44 mag I size to those diameters stay at the diameter I want. I'm in the useless camp concerning the FCD, but if using one makes folks happy, keep on being happy. IMO, I think it may be poor QC/a lot of variability in the post sizing rings diameter as to why why some folks don't get any bullet squishing, others some, and others a lot. FWIW, Lee will/does make an oversize FCD, and I have an unused one in .44 Mag I may give a whirl someday to quell my curiosity.
Sums it up for some folks, me included exactly why the FCD can be a hindrance, not a help, especially with case walls on the thick side and a lot of cast bullets:
ScottShepherd says:
July 8th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Great info Rob. thank you. i have also been working on heavy bullet, fast powder setups in 45. It is very noticeable in the sound of the shot. Also great info when we spoke at lunch after drillmasters. i found that the lee crimp die was sizing .451″ bullets down to .449″ in some cases. .358 in super for revolver was down to .355″ and loose in the case below the crimp. did some accuracy tests with lee crimp and dillon crimp and was shocked at the difference. I became aware of the lack of accuracy at the last drillmasters, i knew the sights were there on some of the shots that scored poor. groups are at least 50% smaller and in the lighter .358 bullets they are 75% smaller. Thank you for unknowlingly helping me with this.
I count on the case to have a bulge so I know neck tension is good for all my handgun loads, and that the .358"/.359" bullets for 9mm and .38 Special, .453" for .45 Auto, and .431" for .44 mag I size to those diameters stay at the diameter I want. I'm in the useless camp concerning the FCD, but if using one makes folks happy, keep on being happy. IMO, I think it may be poor QC/a lot of variability in the post sizing rings diameter as to why why some folks don't get any bullet squishing, others some, and others a lot. FWIW, Lee will/does make an oversize FCD, and I have an unused one in .44 Mag I may give a whirl someday to quell my curiosity.
billsnogo
Member
Aw crap, now I am confused. I am going to be buying the lee turret, and had planned on buying the deluxe dies, now I am not sure.
I decided to start loading just to reduce the cost of each round, but had been, and am more so now interested in improving accuracy as an additional benefit.
I will be keeping tuned to this educational topic
I decided to start loading just to reduce the cost of each round, but had been, and am more so now interested in improving accuracy as an additional benefit.
I will be keeping tuned to this educational topic
snuffy
Member
Wow, that's two fer two that are undersized. Okay, I'll go check a couple of mine BRB.
Color me baffled! Here's my measurements;
9mm .376(at it's smallest point, it's a tapered case) specs say it's .380--.391
10mm or my 40 S&W, .4216, specs say .424? My reloaded, sized 40 ammo is also .4215 with a .401 lead boolit in it.
44 mag, .4548, specs say .457.
45 acp, .4715, specs say .476.
These measurements were taken with a Starret telescoping gauge, then read with a micrometer capable of 0.0001.
Now none of these FCD's touch any of my cases,EXCEPT when an occasional larger-than-it-should-be lead boolit gets seated. Then it's just doing it's job. I wonder about the specs on the handloads.com website. Their dimensions coincide with my Lyman CBH book spot on. Maybe because it's a maximum dimension, not minimum? Or is that chamber dimensions?
Color me baffled!
Here's my measurements;9mm .376(at it's smallest point, it's a tapered case) specs say it's .380--.391
10mm or my 40 S&W, .4216, specs say .424? My reloaded, sized 40 ammo is also .4215 with a .401 lead boolit in it.
44 mag, .4548, specs say .457.
45 acp, .4715, specs say .476.
These measurements were taken with a Starret telescoping gauge, then read with a micrometer capable of 0.0001.
Now none of these FCD's touch any of my cases,EXCEPT when an occasional larger-than-it-should-be lead boolit gets seated. Then it's just doing it's job. I wonder about the specs on the handloads.com website. Their dimensions coincide with my Lyman CBH book spot on. Maybe because it's a maximum dimension, not minimum? Or is that chamber dimensions?
snuffy
Member
Hollow words, without explaining. Do you mean NOT trying to load boolits you know are oversized in brass you KNOW are a little thick? Not too bad if done in a revolver, if you're not using a speed loader. But doing this with a semi-auto will get you in trouble fast!
I realize a bullet being oversize, then being sized down while inside a shell will result in a loose neck tension, and a diameter less that you planned on. But don't go bad mouthing the lee FCD just for doing it's job! That's exactly what it's SUPPOSED to do! Is it a good thing? Of course not! So don't use it for that scenario.
Now enter jacketed bullets, one gets a bad/crooked start into the case, results in a bulge on one side of the brass. Without a FCD, that would most likely tie up a semi-auto pistol. That's if the loader was NOT using a case gauge. WITH a FCD, it would still chamber, but being cocked, nothing will make it accurate. It would get you through a IDPA match, I'll bet the score wouldn't be off either.
Anybody that's running as fast as you can double tap, is not worried about minute of angle accuracy. If you are, you're probably the slowest one out there!
Gimme a break snuffy. I have detailed it over and over here, including its merits. Without attacking anyone, by the way. You are just being argumentative now. You can fight by yourself. I won't fight with you. My answers to all your quoted situations are here in other threads.
Same old lame nah nah nah. You get peeved as if you are taking it personally. Lay down you argument for the FCD without the attitude my friend.
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