Integral locks: good or bad?

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Deanimator...I say again, has anbody on this thread...PERSONALLY had an internal locking mechanism lock on its own volition? I don't care what you have heard, read, dreamed up, etc. I want to hear some personal experience from somebody on here now...so that I can evaluate if there is incompetence on some Joe-Bob's ability to turn a key or if there is an actual flaw in the mechanical performance or function on S&W's revolvers due to this internal locking device. If so...lets begin drawing up papers or suit...or, again, send this thread over to the political side which methinks this is truly about.:scrutiny:
 
Dawg called it -i suspect the 'random failures' (i've only ever heard of two, in posts on the S&W forum) were a result of user error - not turning the lock completely to the locked position/detent.
 
The lock, I think, is a tip of an iceberg. Some buyers, I’ll call them “traditionalists,” not only object to the lock, but also other design, material, and quality control issues in Smith’s current production that they don’t like. Thus the lock has become symbolic of a larger dissatisfaction. Be that as it may, production economics has forced the company to go in the directions it has. But as long as the traditionalists can buy older revolvers on the used market – sometimes in new condition – for less money then the current production guns… they will. If or when this changes, and the older models command a price over current production this situation may change.

There is a real possibility that in the not distant future, the cost of making a revolver – even with production shortcuts – may make them so expensive that only a few very popular models will remain viable in the marketplace. Unfortunately this kind of handgun does not lend itself to punch press and polymer construction.
 
Indeed it has, like a number of other issues. But it will keep coming up so long as we get new members who haven't yet learned how to use the search feature. Getting and giving answers is one of the reason we're here...
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True Fuff, very true. Don't know why I wasn't more clear in my post on that point; could be that my little 15 week old man was screaming in my ears 'till I was cross eyed earlier :p . I don't mind the question coming up from those who are not familiar, though I suspect the "search" feature would turn up a gob of info.

What does frost my butt a little is when a THR member posts a pic of their latest acquisition, that they are quite excited about and proud of ... with the wart visible in the shot. I think, "Oh boy, any minute now". Some of the time (certainly not all) someone "volunteers" their disdain for the ILS within the first half dozen posts. Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty of people who hate the lock and they should be able to vent. Though perhaps some situations, like what I just mentioned, aren't the best time and place I suppose.

FYI, 2 of my 4 Smiths have the lock. I love all of them, but would prefer no locks at all. So far, other than my old K-22 needing a new mainspring and strain screw, all have been 100%+ reliable.
 
I see no point for having an argument. My experience with Smith & Wesson revolvers is long standing - covering over a half century. I have also owned and examined in detail, S&W guns going back to the 1860's. When one reaches old age sometimes their preferences get cast in stone. If such preferences are based on knowledge and experience I see no problem with this.

There are those who see nothing wrong with the lock, or other recent changes. They are perfectly free to buy the current guns, and given their opinions they should do so. Meanwhile I can look in the dark corners and back shelves for overlooked jewels. I suspect that in the time I have left on this planet there will be enough guns to go around and satisfy everybody. :cool:
 
Deanimator...I say again, has anbody on this thread...PERSONALLY had an internal locking mechanism lock on its own volition? I don't care what you have heard, read, dreamed up, etc. I want to hear some personal experience from somebody on here now...so that I can evaluate if there is incompetence on some Joe-Bob's ability to turn a key or if there is an actual flaw in the mechanical performance or function on S&W's revolvers due to this internal locking device. If so...lets begin drawing up papers or suit...or, again, send this thread over to the political side which methinks this is truly about
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That's a very interesting question. Are you saying that you will ONLY accept the word of someone HERE, but NOT on smith-wessonforum.com? That makes it seem like you'll only accept a particular answer and are setting yourself to only get THAT answer.

You buy all of the S&W revolvers with locks that you want. I place a higher value on my own life than that.
 
The lock, I think, is a tip of an iceberg. Some buyers, I’ll call them “traditionalists,” not only object to the lock, but also other design, material, and quality control issues in Smith’s current production that they don’t like.
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I have quite a few S&W revolvers, the absolute newest being a 3" 65 with hammer mounted firing pin. I only got it because it was IMPOSSIBLE to find a Model 13 here.

My objection to current S&Ws is first and foremost the lock, followed by mandatory (at least for a while) round butts, then stainless steel. I have no objection to MIM parts. I'm a big Dan Wesson fan, so I have no inherent objection to two-piece barrels, although lock aside, I'm not a fan of S&W's take on the concept.

My objections to the lock have been previously stated and don't need to be restated. Suffice to say I will NEVER buy an S&W revolver with the lock, at least the current incarnation of the lock. That's absolutely non-negotiable.

I HATED not having the choice of square butt grip frames. Putting big, uncomfortable square butt grips on a round butt revolver doesn't magically turn it into a square butt revolver. I have two round butt revolvers, a 36 and a 65, both of them CCW gun. I will tolerate round butt ONLY in CCW guns. A round butt 4" K or L frame or any length round butt N frame gun is just silly to me.

I don't like stainless steel. It just doesn't look good to me. I have ONE stainless gun, the Model 65. If I could have found a 3" 13 for anything within a mile of a sane price, I'd have one of those instead. I couldn't, so I have the 65.

Product-wise, S&W left me behind a long time ago. A lot of their recent product looks like Vin Diesel should be shooting space pterodactyls with it. That's why save for that lone 65, every one of my revolvers is AT LEAST 20-25 years old. Which is as it should be. You'd have to be pretty stupid to spend $800-1000 for something you don't like or need.
 
So am I correct in assuming I can have my gunsmith remove the locking mechanism entirely? Or is loctite the only other way to disable it? My 629 is for wilderness defence and a malfunctioning internal lock would be bad... If I have a misfire, you just pull the triger again, if the lock has rendered the gun inoperable if have something a little better than a stick....
 
I like...I don't like...I like...I don't like. What we have here is a failure to communicate. What you dont like and what doesn't work are two horses of a different color. The world does not revolve around your preferences; you do however have the right to spout about them. Me too. Bottom line: There are no mechanical malfunctions on these S&W locks...there are only human error malfunctions...you know, people who are unable to follow instructions...the kind of people who blame the map because they cannot follow a compass direction. Look...if you do not want the perfectly operational locking device on a S&W...dont buy it. If you have one you dont like...sell it to me (at cost of course). Go and lobby S&W. I used to know people who ranted and raved about SS weapons...and how only "real" weapons were blued...or the wood vs plastic crowd...etc. Look...the weapons work just fine. You just don't like them. Me...I dont care if there is a hole in the side of the metal. I just dont use the lock. I pull the trigger, hammer falls...gun goes boom...smoke out the barrel.:rolleyes:
 
There are no mechanical malfunctions on these S&W locks...there are only human error malfunctions.
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So then let's nail this down:

Are you saying that the people on smith-wessonforum.com who have posted FIRST HAND experience of lock failures LIED?

That's a simple yes or no question.

Please answer it.
 
The locks make no difference in performance. Just don't use them if you don't want to.
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You don't consider not being able to fire a "difference in performance"? In what capacity is the firearm performing where that doesn't matter, "paperweight"?

It's well documented that sometimes you don't get a choice as to using the the locks. They sometimes make that decision FOR you.
 
I don't have anything against the lock concerning S&W revolvers.

Its just that vintage S&W revolvers with bright blue finishes, pinned barrels, recessed cylinders, beautiful wood stocks, no MIM parts, color-case hardened triggers and hammers and smoother actions than newer S&W revolvers are still available at very reasonable prices(Most at least).

New S&W revolvers typically lack all of the above features. They are stronger than older models, but with the exception of the 29 or 19 you have little to worry about when it comes to the strength of almost any vintage S&W revolvers as long as you don't pound hot ammo through them on a consistent basis.

IMO the lock is a non-issue. I just happen to buy non-lock S&W revolvers for the above reasons mentioned.
 
Nope...I am not saying that anybody lied. I am saying they screwed up. Human error. They did not turn the lock all the way. Kind of like somebody not putting their weapon back together correctly and then stating that the weapon doesn't work. Got it? If the car runs out of gas...do you blame the car or the operator? Now me...I'd think the operator needs a bit of instruction...I would not go around saying that all Fords were crap nowadays.
 
I am saying they screwed up. Human error. They did not turn the lock all the way.
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Many years ago, several parachutists were killed jumping Security Parachute Company's "Crossbow" parachute.

It turned out that it was possible to make a small mistake when packing the parachute (and jumpers packed their own) so the main parachute wouldn't open. It was also possible to pull the reserve ripcord at the wrong angle -- and it wouldn't come out.

With only seconds to live, I don't want to trust my life to something that may malfunction due to a small error I made. I want a fail safe system.
 
QUOTE:
**Bottom line: There are no mechanical malfunctions on these S&W locks...there are only human error malfunctions...**




That's funny.
 
Nope...I am not saying that anybody lied. I am saying they screwed up. Human error. They did not turn the lock all the way.
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Then certainly you can cite at least one documented case presented on http://www.smith-wessonforum.com where you can show this to have happened.

Until such time, the above is what's called an "unsupported assertion".

The claims of lock failure on http://www.smith-wessonforum.com are however much more detailed and convincing.
 
QUOTE:
**Bottom line: There are no mechanical malfunctions on these S&W locks...there are only human error malfunctions...**




That's funny.
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One could plausibly argue that trusting ones life to a revolver equipped with S&W's current ILS qualifies as a "human error malfunction". After all it's clearly an error in human judgement to willingly premise ones continued existence on a mechanical device with a proven track record of unreliability.
 
My revovler works perfectly, albeit it has an unsightly hole in the side. Have you personally had a malfunction with the lock? You keep referring me/us to the Taurus site withouth citing a specific thread...can you give me something specific to look at? Are we going to disucss second person hearsay? I tell you it is all balderdash. I just wrote to S&W engineers...I will post their response on here if and when I get a response. I am also asking and searching if S&W has been sued for this "imaginary malfunctioning lock" which would surely be the case if it actually happend (and was not found to be operator error after a little investigation)...ya think? Please do not pass your fantasy off as factual. Show me/us the proof that there is a flaw in this locking mechanism.
 
Without a doubt the single most idiotic thing that has ever happened to the handgun community. I mean 10 round mags are disgusting, but at least they don't have the potential of rendering the gun useless. Unfortunately, we live in Liberal Soccer Mom USA and it will get worse before it gets better.
 
I'm not a fan of the internal lock but I think they're a wave of the future especially w/ states like CA requiring more & more "safety" features on new guns.
 
QUOTE:
***One could plausibly argue that trusting ones life to a revolver equipped with S&W's current ILS qualifies as a "human error malfunction". After all it's clearly an error in human judgement to willingly premise ones continued existence on a mechanical device with a proven track record of unreliability.***

:D :D




Deanimator, someone once told me that if you jump off a tall building, it's gonna hurt but, I refuse to believe it 'til it happens to me.;) :evil:




10-RING, surprisingly CA can't share the blame of the locks. CA neither requires or recognizes internal locks. That disgrace goes to 1 or 2 states in the east.
 
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