Interesting conversation in the gun shop
- Thread starter mopar92
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MP-5 Hillbilly
Member
This is how I did it....takes time but simple.
I have been a FFL/SOT since 1986 out of my home until June 2008 when I opened GunRunnersUSA.com.
Your initial FFL application will cost 200.00 to cover your background, after that you pay 90.00 every 3 years.
As noted above your SOT either C2 or C3 dealer will run 500.00 per year. I decided to stick with C3 dealer just because of the ITAR issue. I can not make any post 86 mg's but can get them with a demo letter from a LE agency, but I have no worries about the ITAR...letters for me are not a problem.
A dealer had a 10/22, m4 and thompson in NH...I bought all 3 just to get dibbs on the 10/22...and it works. John Norrell made a few posties back in the day but he doesn't do that any more. I had about 1k in each of them.
Then a couple of years later a C2 died out in ID. He was a history buff, had a mg 34. bren, Grease gun, russian dp, tommy, vickers, 1919, MP-40, PPsh-41, BAR, Sten, swedish K..I wanted the BAR in the worst way but someone else beat me to it...I ended up buying the rest of the collection on one demo letter.
ATFE is NOT the big bad wolf everyone claims they are...I have heard horror stories but I have NEVER had an issue with them. You must know the rules and play by the rules.
Since the C2 died and he was the only one on the FFL/SOT ATF could have taken the post 86 guns. They let the dealer's Aunt dispose of the firerarms but the only catch was they were tax paid firearms (form 4). I had never seen a post 86 gun transferred on a form 4 until this deal.
Long story short...I bought them all except the BAR, paid 200.00 transfer tax for each one to get them to TN along with the cost of the guns...much cheaper than pre 86 guns. Since that time ATFE has allowed the transfer of post 86 guns no letter required if the C2 or C3 is going out of business.
In reality I can not "keep" any of them, but I pay 500.00 per year to be a C3 dealer so in a weird way I am "renting" them until I retire one day...until then I have PLENTY of post 86 guns to do demo's with and have a little fun in my off time.
I sell about 50+ NFA items a year so this more than covers my SOT.
JP in 10-E-C
www.gunrunnersusa.com
I have been a FFL/SOT since 1986 out of my home until June 2008 when I opened GunRunnersUSA.com.
Your initial FFL application will cost 200.00 to cover your background, after that you pay 90.00 every 3 years.
As noted above your SOT either C2 or C3 dealer will run 500.00 per year. I decided to stick with C3 dealer just because of the ITAR issue. I can not make any post 86 mg's but can get them with a demo letter from a LE agency, but I have no worries about the ITAR...letters for me are not a problem.
A dealer had a 10/22, m4 and thompson in NH...I bought all 3 just to get dibbs on the 10/22...and it works. John Norrell made a few posties back in the day but he doesn't do that any more. I had about 1k in each of them.
Then a couple of years later a C2 died out in ID. He was a history buff, had a mg 34. bren, Grease gun, russian dp, tommy, vickers, 1919, MP-40, PPsh-41, BAR, Sten, swedish K..I wanted the BAR in the worst way but someone else beat me to it...I ended up buying the rest of the collection on one demo letter.
ATFE is NOT the big bad wolf everyone claims they are...I have heard horror stories but I have NEVER had an issue with them. You must know the rules and play by the rules.
Since the C2 died and he was the only one on the FFL/SOT ATF could have taken the post 86 guns. They let the dealer's Aunt dispose of the firerarms but the only catch was they were tax paid firearms (form 4). I had never seen a post 86 gun transferred on a form 4 until this deal.
Long story short...I bought them all except the BAR, paid 200.00 transfer tax for each one to get them to TN along with the cost of the guns...much cheaper than pre 86 guns. Since that time ATFE has allowed the transfer of post 86 guns no letter required if the C2 or C3 is going out of business.
In reality I can not "keep" any of them, but I pay 500.00 per year to be a C3 dealer so in a weird way I am "renting" them until I retire one day...until then I have PLENTY of post 86 guns to do demo's with and have a little fun in my off time.
I sell about 50+ NFA items a year so this more than covers my SOT.
JP in 10-E-C
www.gunrunnersusa.com
IBEWBULL
Member
In reply to JTH .
The illegal automatic weapons are coming into Mexico via the same route as the drugs. Third world countries are flooding the drug market with what ever weapon they want. From the Klashnekoff to the RPG and possibly much more.
Less than a handful of crimes have ever been committed with a legally owned class III weapon since the law was passed.
Back in the 70's when semi automatic military look alike guns became popular some began collecting. Now the nomenclature has changed to assault rifle, incorrectly I may add. Since an assault rifle by definition is a select fire rifle which fires an intermediate round. I digressed here , sorry.
I hope we all recall who put the kibochi on manufacturing class III weapons.
Ronnie Reagan signed the law which made manufacturer legal only if for a government contract. All of the shop prototypes from the little guys went away.
Lessening the competition with big corporations in the USA and stifling American ingenuity.
I wonder how long it will be before drill presses, lathes and welders are registered?
I know this is an old thread but the points art still interesting.
The illegal automatic weapons are coming into Mexico via the same route as the drugs. Third world countries are flooding the drug market with what ever weapon they want. From the Klashnekoff to the RPG and possibly much more.
Less than a handful of crimes have ever been committed with a legally owned class III weapon since the law was passed.
Back in the 70's when semi automatic military look alike guns became popular some began collecting. Now the nomenclature has changed to assault rifle, incorrectly I may add. Since an assault rifle by definition is a select fire rifle which fires an intermediate round. I digressed here , sorry.
I hope we all recall who put the kibochi on manufacturing class III weapons.
Ronnie Reagan signed the law which made manufacturer legal only if for a government contract. All of the shop prototypes from the little guys went away.
Lessening the competition with big corporations in the USA and stifling American ingenuity.
I wonder how long it will be before drill presses, lathes and welders are registered?
I know this is an old thread but the points art still interesting.
Black Butte
Member
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mortablunt
Member
Civvies can't make new full auto weapons. Now as for the argument that ther are things a civilian doesn't need, like a machine gun, do keep in mind that it's not too hard to progressively think like that and eventually end up going the IANSA or GFSA route and just saying "We don't need guns at all!"
451 Detonics
Member
The Akins used a spring to pull the trigger against the finger thus the gun was firing more than one round with a single pull on the trigger. The new SlideFire stock requires the user to pull the trigger for each shot by using the support hand to reset the trigger.
It was the spring that killed the Atkins...
It was the spring that killed the Atkins...
SDC
Member
But that WAS the intent of the bill when it was passed; $200 in 1934 translates to more than $3000 today, and the average salary at that time (Depression) was around $1500 per year. They realized that a law that required such a fee would essentially prohibit private ownership (except for the rich), but that anything higher would be so transparent that a court would be likely to strike it down. If they passed a law today that said you had to pay a fee of 2 year's worth of salary to buy a firearm, wouldn't you think that amounted to "a conspiracy to increase costs out of the range of an average man"?
JWF III
Member
Back to the main question...
If I'm not mistaken (and I know I'll be corrected quickly if I am), but I believe on Norrells 10/22s the trigger group is the Title 2 item. Similar to Auto-sears in HKs and Lightning Links in ARs.
IOW, I think you could buy a transferable Norrell trigger group, drop it in your 10/22, and be good to go.
That would be far cheaper than Class 3 FFL, SOT, shop equipment, etc., etc., etc.. Additionally, you could keep it as long as you wanted, and will it to someone at your death. Neither of which you could do with a FA gun you legally manufactured.
Wyman
MasterSergeantA
Member
JWF is correct. Norrell trigger packs...with or without a 10/22 attached...are currently going for about $8K. Not cheap by any means, but when compared to setting up shop as a SOT...
UZIs are going for about the same price. M-11/9s are much less. Of course, ammunition costs are very different. If you plan to shoot a LOT, you might actually save money in the long run with the Norrell pack.
UZIs are going for about the same price. M-11/9s are much less. Of course, ammunition costs are very different. If you plan to shoot a LOT, you might actually save money in the long run with the Norrell pack.
LiquidTension
Member
Or you could save even more money getting the M11/9 with a Lage Max-11/22 upper
A lot of the weapons flowing into Mexico come from Venezuela, which purchased a factory from Russia to make AK-47's, light MG's and RPG's. But our President once called Chavez a "great Latin American statesman" so nothing has been or will be done. It is easier to get Obama's left-wing base worked up by blaming the "evil" NRA than by blaming a Marxist-Leninist Hero and ally of Iran.
That aside, the exact status of "trick" gadgets to make a gun fire full auto or simulate full auto fire can only be determined in a court. BUT, BATFE can bring in a hundred "experts" to testify their way, and rarely have courts contradicted their views and rulings. And when a federal court does, BATFE appeals to the district court, and on up. Meanwhile, the lower court will always allow the original BATFE ruling to remain in effect, pending appeal. Even when a federal circuit court of appeals rules against them, BATFE says that ruling applies ONLY to that circuit and not to the rest of the country, and the appellant has to take the cast to the Supreme Court and get them to accept it.
You may think a BATFE rule or regulation is silly, stupid, or whatever. But fighting them takes big bucks and plenty of time. In most cases, the citizen eventually decides it isn't worth it and gives up, which is what BATFE counts on.
Jim
That aside, the exact status of "trick" gadgets to make a gun fire full auto or simulate full auto fire can only be determined in a court. BUT, BATFE can bring in a hundred "experts" to testify their way, and rarely have courts contradicted their views and rulings. And when a federal court does, BATFE appeals to the district court, and on up. Meanwhile, the lower court will always allow the original BATFE ruling to remain in effect, pending appeal. Even when a federal circuit court of appeals rules against them, BATFE says that ruling applies ONLY to that circuit and not to the rest of the country, and the appellant has to take the cast to the Supreme Court and get them to accept it.
You may think a BATFE rule or regulation is silly, stupid, or whatever. But fighting them takes big bucks and plenty of time. In most cases, the citizen eventually decides it isn't worth it and gives up, which is what BATFE counts on.
Jim
MasterSergeantA
Member
Liquid Tension is obviously correct. Getting the Lage unit was my answer...but I alrady had the M-11/9 and another of his uppers, so it only made sense. If Calico Light Weapons ever gets around to building their .22LR mod for the M-11 (I already have the 9mm version), I will dance in the meadow at midnight.
Jim is also correct about each of the points he makes. I would add only that I live here down on the border, work at a local gun shop, and knew USBP Special Agent Brian Terry, so I have an additional view of things. It ain't all Comrade Chavez's fault. Comrade Obama has a hand in it, either directly or through incompetence.
Jim is also correct about each of the points he makes. I would add only that I live here down on the border, work at a local gun shop, and knew USBP Special Agent Brian Terry, so I have an additional view of things. It ain't all Comrade Chavez's fault. Comrade Obama has a hand in it, either directly or through incompetence.
You don't get hassled because you're clearly in business. Selling an NFA item a week may not be a big business, but it's obviously more than just a hobby. Besides your NFA business, your website also provides good evidence you are selling other firearms.
That makes you significantly different from someone who really has no interest in running a firearms related business and is merely trying to find a legal loophole that allows them to make or buy a few post-86 machineguns.
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crossrhodes
Member
???
Sorry for asking but what is this belt loop and shoe string thing?
Sorry for asking but what is this belt loop and shoe string thing?
The belt loop thing is a reference to bump firing technique.
The shoe lace thing is a reference to this:
http://jpfo.org/images02/shoestring.jpg
The shoe lace thing is a reference to this:
http://jpfo.org/images02/shoestring.jpg
crossrhodes
Member
Thanks
Thanks Kozak6. I was aware of bump fire but never heard it in those term.
Thanks Kozak6. I was aware of bump fire but never heard it in those term.
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