Interesting powder/ case deterioration

[Elkins45]

I had a box of 270 that was loaded sometime in the early 90's from relatively new brass. The loads were 55 grains of IMR 4831 under a Hornady 130 spire point. I fired a few last weekend and noticed smoke from the action on the first shot. Every case split and dumped some (but not a scary amount) of gas into the action. After the third shot I concluded something was wrong and brought the remainder home.

I pulled them all and noticed that all of the billets were blue/green and corroded. Some of the powder grains were actually blue as well, and when I dumped the powder out of the container there was some weird azure dust left behind. So it seems clear the powder (orange metal can from the early 90's) is deteriorating and corroding the bullets. I weighed all of the charges and none were overloads.

Most interesting was the effect on the brass. Every single case exhibited cracking somewhere after the bullet came out. Some were neck cracks but there were also a bunch that cracked at the shoulder or lengthwise along the body. It seems like whatever was out gassing from the powder that made the brass exceptionally brittle.

I'm glad I stopped shooting them and pulled them down. All of the components went in the trash where they belong.

 

[gamestalker]

This demonstrates one of the reasons why I'm so anal about how I prepare my brass for loading. What I'm specifically referring too, is that I will very often rinse my bottle neck brass with acetone, but at the very least I use 91% alcohol. I've been criticized and labeled as OCD, which is definitely true. But I have seen the effect that residual lube and moisture can have on the powder, brass, and bullets, thus I have experienced a similar occurrence of internal corrosion with bottle necks that have sat for a number of years as you described.

I know there is a pretty thin line between obsession, and necessity, and what I do I feel is a necessity. If I'm loading a batch that's going to get shot in the near future, I don't bother rinsing with acetone, and will instead just wipe the inside of the brass out with alcohol after the final tumbling.

Tumbling, this is a 3 step process for me when it involves bottle neck brass. I first tumble in a regular walnut media, in other words, it's not very sterile and is simply for knocking any grit off.

Following that, I then lube and resize. After the resize, I use a Q tip and alcohol to remove any residual lube, inside and out. I use as many clean Q tips as it takes to get them coming out clean, especially under the shoulder.

Then they go into a clean walnut media, in other words not contaminated with lube. Following that tumbling, I then tumble them in near sterile corn cob. Then after they come out of the corn cob and depending on whether they will be stored for a while before getting used, I'll literally dip and rinse them in acetone to make sure they are completely free of any lube or other contaminate. But if they are only going to be stored fora month or so, I just give them a final Q tip and alcohol wipe.

I've pulled rounds that I loaded 10-15 years ago, and the powder is still free flowing, and there is no sign what so ever of any corrosion inside the brass, or on the unexposed bullet base or body.

The conditions that the ammo is stored in is also very important IMO. I store my ammo in the same fashion I store powder and primers, that being a dry cool place, free from exposure to the elements.

GS

 

[Salmoneye]

Here is an old thread of mine that has to do with bad powder and resulting corrosion...

This is factory ammo, not reloads:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542632

 

[fguffey]

Elkins45, I have pulled down 450 +/- a few 7mm Remington Magnums and 257 Weatherby Magnums in the last 6 months. All of the ammo was loaded between 1971 and 1973. Most of the ammo would have fired. All of the ammo was loaded with the same powder.

Problems, some of the necks pulled off with the bullets, some of the cases were cracked at the neck, some of the powder was caked, some of the powder in the cases was caked on top below the bullet, some of the powder was caked next to the primer.

Conclusion? The powder was not bad, it went bad after the ammo was loaded.

F. Guffey

 

[243winxb]

Reloaded ammo -long term storage-bad idea IMO

This is why i no long put ammo in storage. Used brass has left over chemical residue that needs to be fully removed before reloading for storing.

 

[Slamfire]

I have written extensively on the lifetime of gunpowder. Contrary to the expectations of shooters, and the immortality suggested by moronic gun writers, gunpowder does not last forever. In fact it is quite mortal. These are threads which I provided information, a couple of which has pictures which Salmoneye took. Thanks!

Old Powder Caused Fire!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=788841


Old powder

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=787843


Shelf life of reloads?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=758305


Look at the pictures in this thread:


Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3745264

The green corrosion you are seeing is from nitric acid gas coming out of deteriorated gunpowder. This nitric acid gas also attacks the brass causing case splits. When the corrosion is extreme it will cause pin hole through corrosion of the case. I have seen all of these.

Gunpowder lifetime is unpredictable, a rule of thumb is 20 years for double based, 45 years for single based. Some fails sooner. Hardly any gunpowder is safe past 45 years. Old gunpowder in bulk will autocombust. Old gunpowder in cartridge cases will blow up your gun. Heat is the worst enemy of gunpowder, temperatures over 86 F accelerate the deterioration.

 

[Gummi Bear]

That is definitely weird.

The closest I've come to anything like that, was when I received my great uncle's rifle. He lived in the mountains and kept it propped in the corner as a "just in case". When I got it, it had been kept loaded with some WW II surplus ammo, and the green crud was climbing up the barrel. Took me probably 10 cleaning sessions to clear all that out.

It invokes an interesting conversation point on case prep

I have been fortunate to have never had any kind of experience like that. I have even shot stuff my grandfather loaded back in the 50's (admittedly he wasn't too big on cartridge cleaning, and used wax as a size lube)

I am fully and completely sold on stainless media tumbling. A buddy first bought into it, and that got me interested. Been doing it for a few years now, and I get perfect clean brass with no lubricant left on the case.

 

[rg1]

Loaded a small batch of factory NEW brass back in the 90's with recent manufactured powder. Just last year I wanted the new unfired brass for a new bullet and load. Pulled the bullets and dumped the powder. Some of the powder came out in like new condition but several cases the powder did not pour out. It had turned a black crystal like substance and required a pick to bust up the powder before it would come out of the case. Some still stuck to the case walls. I firmly believe the NEW factory cases were contaminated in case forming oil lubrication and were never cleaned and the lube contaminated my powder. I wonder what would have happened if I fired those cases. Luckily with good record keeping and labeled boxes I knew that these were the only cases loaded with this new brass. I now treat any new cases like they were never cleaned by the factory. Your cases have been badly damaged by the deteriorating powder and the acid it produced.

 

[Elkins45]

I have never encountered a ball powder going bad, but I have seen at least two different lots of IMR 4831 and a couple of other IMR stick powders that were obviously going bad.

Just as another bit of data, this particular box of ammo was never stored in harsh conditions and the powder was bought new sometime after 1989 because that's when I started loading center fire rifles.

 

[gamestalker]

Well after reading through some of these posts, I don't feel all that OCD any more. I just figure that the powder and internal brass is going to last a bit longer, and shoot a bit more consistently if it is completely free of contaminates, and is stored at an acceptable temperature and in a dry environment.

The one other thing I do with ammo that's been sitting for a while, is I bump the bullets also. They do weld pretty good, and it doesn't take very long for that to happen.

GS

 

[W.E.G.]

This happens sometimes.

However, it is the exception.

The caveat about long-term storage of handloads is wise.
Check your supplies on a regular basis.

Most handloads will be absolutely fine after a long period of time.
Some (small percentage) will have degraded.

This even happens with factory-new ammo.
Why do you think armies get rid of "surplus ammo?"

You must determine what is your personal threshold for deadlining ammo, whether it is factory-loaded or hand-loaded.

You don't get what you EXpect.

You only get what you INspect.

 

[Slamfire]

The amount of ammunition being destroyed because it is too unreliable to issue and too dangerous to store, is just mind boggling. These articles describe amounts. The US destroys almost a $ 1 Billion in old munitions per year!

Burning the Bullet INDUSTRIAL DEMILITARIZATION OF AMMUNITION

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/file...13/en/Small-Arms-Survey-2013-Chapter-9-EN.pdf

Capabilities and Capacities: A Survey of South-east Europe’s Demilitarization Infrastructure

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/file...S-SR15-South-East-Europe-Demilitarization.pdf

Recently I read one post, the poster was claiming ammunition had to last forever because he had been issued WW2 ammunition in the 80's to shoot at the range. It was beyond his comprehension that Ammunition Technicians are behind the scenes, examining lots of ammunition, and removing lots to be demilitarized which were unfit to issue. It would have also been beyond his comprehension that some of the demilled lots were younger than the stuff he fired. To him, he was issued old ammunition, therefore all old ammunition has to be good, because the stuff he shot was good.

Through Gun Magazines and the like, the shooting public has been actively indoctrinated to believe that ammunition is immortal. I have read any number of articles by prestigious gunwriters, not so much claiming that gunpowder lasts forever, but the entire articles are written so the reader gets the impression that it does. Sort of like those Cigarette ads where Doctors endorse a brand. If Doctors smoke cigarettes, then they must be good for you, right?



It is in no one's economic interest to educate the public about the stability of gunpowder. If the public became aware that gunpowder aged, and aged badly, then the shooting public might get picky. Might not want to pay full price for ammunition that is 20 years old, or older. Might want to know just exactly when the stuff was made, when the powder was made. If you notice, the shooting public is not exactly demanding this data, and in fact, many deny that ammunition will ever go bad. So the dumbing down campaign has been successful. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[fguffey]

I bump the bullets also. They do weld pretty good, and it doesn't take very long for that to happen.

That is the problem I have with neck tension, again, I want all the bullet hold I can get. I have pulled down ammo, all type and kind of ammo from about every decade with the exception of the 1920s and '30s. I have never found a bullet that was stuck to the neck of the case. I have pulled down ammo that was loaded by reloaders with bad habits.

I have pulled down 8mm57 ammo with late 1930 head stamps. My interest was to get rid of the primers. The inside of the cases looked as good today as it did when the ammo was loaded. I stored the primed cases in 30 Cal. ammo cans. 15 years after pulling the bullets/powder the inside of the cases still 'looking good'.

F. Guffey

 

[Ironicaintit]

I think i may begin a habit. Annually, pull small samples of older stock and test for stuck projectiles and decayed powder. Then visually inspect everything for corrosion leaking through.
I have some stuff, both reloads and factory, that are very, very old.

The only problem ive found yet; some mil-surp 30-06 from 1909 that had gone green and fuzzy around the neck.

 

[joem1945]

Looks like it might have gotten damp. I bought some 1938 vintage 8 mm that got wet and everything looked like that only worse.

 

[Elkins45]

Looks like it might have gotten damp. I bought some 1938 vintage 8 mm that got wet and everything looked like that only worse.

Not a chance it ever got wet.