Interesting thing happened at Walmart

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You know I hate to do this, but it's funny how no one has said it yet, you all have danced around it, but no one's said it, everyone says I carry my CCW for the protection of me or my loved ones... Well how about the protection of someone you didn't know who was facing serious bodily injury or death, I mean by what I have read here it's all you, and screw everyone else, so if you saw a security officer tussling with a person you would just stand there especially after knowing the person they are tussling with has commited a crime, What a joke, put your guns in the closet and think about it, I am sorry if that hits a nerve, but I carry my CCW for my protection, and the protection of any one else who might need it, since it's obvious te police can't protect us all at any given time, I choose to make sure that I can protect myself, and anyone else around. How about this, Yes I would help, why because I have been in that situation, ohh and by the way guys and gals, mr. security is just like you and me they have no special powers as some might think, and well think about it if the security officer is tussling with a BG don't you think someone else could get hurt, I am not saying jump into the melee full bore, but damn give the guy a hand when you see that he is getting the upper hand.
What about this same scenerio except replace Security with Police, would you just stand there? This lawsuit thing, if you are so worried about being suid because you assisted in taking someone into custody, don't leave the house since anything now days can get you sued. Ohh and I have asisted many times, to take someone into custody, have I been sued NOPE, so I am not afraid of that argument, ohh and why don't you check into the good samariten clause in your state, I know here it covers exactly that. I can't be sued if I was acting in good faith, So if I have to help a fellow out I am pretty much covered, Like Smoke said it's a damn shame we worry about everything else but what's right. Just remember your little attitude when you are the one is the situation, and no one helps, and you get upset becuase there are plenty of people standing ther scratching thier heads, but no on e helps... So sad really.

Let the flames begin,....
 
*sigh* Punctuation... it's a lovely thing.

The scenarios you describe are quite different than the one under discussion. Whether I would or would not get involved in tripping up a shoplifter is a vastly different question than whether I would shoot to protect the life of someone I don't know.

And that's assuming the situation is clear. One of my daughter's friends used to yell "I'm being molested!" when the other kids wouldn't do what she wanted. (Yeah, I know, but she wasn't mine to correct.) Imagine shooting in that situation!

I understand your frustration. It does feel odd to see so many people saying "not my problem." But someone swiping a pack of gum from Wally World is hardly another Kitty Genovese case.

- 0 -
 
I remember a few weeks ago, I went to the grocery store to pick up some ice cream. This town isn't exactly the nicest town so they had a security guy there.

He had a 1911, body armor and a very serious look to him. I wouldn't want to be a thief and have him detain me.
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Where do you live?
 
KD, the only way your point makes any sense is if you somehow KNOW that the security guard is the "good guy" and other fellow is the "bad guy". having worked security (including loss prevention) for a number of years i can tell you that it isnt always the case.

It IS rare, but sometimes when a "loss prevention" (sometimes just an overzealus stock boy) apprehends someone they are doing so to be "tough" and without the proper justification for doing so. In a situation like that the person being "apprehended" has every right in the world to defend themselves. And if you jump in to hamper his self defense you are (at least morally) commiting the crime of assault against an innocent person.
 
C , I find your statements interesting. You tell KD that his statements make sense in only one context , but then go on to explain one rare situation yourself. I don't understand how, even in the rare instance, a "loss prevention" apprehending a shoplifter who refuses to be apprehended would be without justification and how you surmise that it's just about being 'tough'.

Kd, I hear ya and so does everyone else. Almost everyone has seen the shooter at the White House who was tackled by bystanders and the shooter who tried to shoot that lawyer and was tackled by bystanders. Fact is, some people are inclined to jump in and some people ain't. Don't fret over those who ain't, but know they'll still thank God for those who do. I know I've been guilty of it myself on here, but to see someone else do it brings it home. Don't reprimand others for their position , just state yours that you'd jump in and I for one will thank you much for folks like you.
 
kd7ctv,
What makes you so sure that what you're seeing and about to jump into is as it appears? I've been a peace officer for 19 years and I can tell you that very little is as it seems on the surface. If you look at the situation as originally posted you'll see that no one was in danger. Just because it appeared that a loss prevention specialist was chasing a shoplifting suspect doesn't make that the true story. For all you know you could be jumping into the middle of a domestic situation.

I think that everyone who posted they would stay out of it, said that they'd stay out because no one was endangered.

If you carry your weapon so that you can fight crime and/or evil, I would suggest that you're in the wrong line of work. Just because you haven't been sued, injured or arrested yet, doesn't mean it won't happen at some time in the future. You should make certain that the outcome of your intervention is worth the risk you're taking. As far as I'm concerned, given only the situation metioned in the first post in this thread, you just said that your life is worth whatever Wal-Mart was charging for the CD/DVD or whatever else the shoplifter allegedly took.

Jeff
 
With all due respect, No none yet has suggested shooting a "perp" for shoplifting, so the CCW thing is moot. This is really about jumpimg in and helping apprehending an obvious criminal. Luckily some will and unfornutaley most won't. Better to err with your conviction.
 
Gene :)

CCW unfortunately is an issue with respect to weapon retention IF one decides on involvement. Since physical contact with the perp is being considered, so must the risk of inadvertently ARMING a likely increasingly-desperate perp should you fail to conceal/retain your weapon.

That risk can far outweigh the shop's loss of merchandise, for a gun in a criminal fugitive's hands puts innocent lives and limbs in real danger.



horge
 
In my state, shoplifting AND resisting arrest by force becomes Robbery, 2nd. Felony. I still would make sure myself and my party were safe and go to another EXIT. I have jumped in before. I evacuated the store of customers first. The manager was being pistolwhipped. Tough. Safety of others comes first. The greater good. I get involved. The risk is an issue. What matters is getting the reduction in numbers of potential targets for harm. The threat is in a tussle with store security? Good! He is distracted. Clear the immediate area. I could care less if a chuck steak has grown legs.
 
Horge brings up a good point. When you carry a weapon there is at least one weapon in every situation you become involved in..the one you brought there.

On May 22, 2004, Lt. Vickie Wax, 51, a 27 year veteran of the Baton Rouge, LA police department was killed when a shoplifter she was trying to subdue disarmed her and shot her in the head with her own weapon. A Wal-Mart security officer was present and they had one cuff on the suspect when the fight broke out. Lt. Wax was moonlighting as a Loss Prevention Officer for Wal-Mart at the time. A bystander, Stanford Wilson, 51 jumped in to help the struggling officers and was shot multiple times in the upper body. The other Wal-Mart employee, who I believe was unarmed was shot in the shoulder. The suspect then escaped and turned himself in the next day.

Some questions for all you people with your CCWs who are going to jump into the fight:

1. Do you carry your firearm in a holster designed with retention while engaged in hand to hand struggles?

2. Have you sought out special training in retaining your weapon in a hand to hand fight?

3. Do you regularly practice weapons retention?

There was one firearm present when this fight started. It was in the hands of the good guys. At the end of the fight, 3 good guys were shot, one killed and two seriously wounded.

So how well can you fight one handed? Remember, the other hand is holding your carry piece in your Milt Sparks Executive Companion.

What about liability? Do you think your state's Good Samaratin law will protect you from the lawsuits if you lose your weapon in a hand to hand fight and innocent bystanders are shot?

Is the DVD or CD that Wal-Mart stands to lose worth all that? That's the chance you take everytime you go hand to hand while you're armed with a firearm.

Jeff
 
Something else to think about. You are chasing a "Shop Lifter" (it is in quotes because you didn't really see him you just saw someone that you assumed to be a WalMart Loss Prevention officer chasing someone), you draw you weapon, the local constabulatory arrives....who do you think they are going to be much more interested in? The guy lying on the ground screaming "Officers he is a mad man....shoot him!!" or you??

The fallacy with all of these "What would you do" scenerios is that the people answering have the benefit of time and space. You have maybe 10-25 seconds to make you decision. You can only see what you can see. I take a lot of the advice on the internet with a big grain of salt.
 
Big difference between assisting in the apprehension of someone a Wally World security guard deems a suspect in a minor property crime and being willing to save someone's life from assault. :rolleyes:

I don't think I'd step in on a walmart shoplifting scene. Petty crime, major superstore chain, big time possible trouble for me and my family, especially if packing (which I would be) as was mentioned above. It's a sure bummer to stand by and let someone get away with shoplifting, even if it is wally world, but in this situation, there is just too much at risk personally for such a minor crime.

It's a shame. There was a time when people wouldn't hesitate to stop someone from doing something wrong. Now we have to make calculations and weigh outcomes.

On second thought...maybe I would have checked the guy. Who knows.

- Gabe
 
All I want to know is, why does every security detail always have some big overweight guy? And if you've worked at a place that has an overweight security guy; why does he always seem to act like a hard@$$?
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Hmm. Well, according to the American Medical Association, I'm obese. 5'11, 290. 54and1/2 inch chest. 40 inch waist. I say I'm cornfed. It never stopped me from keeping up with the rest of my academy class.
I'm that "overweight" security guy you mentioned.
I'm the one they call when somebody has the little guys on our team cornered. I'm the guy who pulls thugs off of people. I'm the guy who wades into the 10 man fight at the bar and starts dropping folks.
Why do I act like a harda$$?
I don't. But you have to project a certain attitude when dealing with gang members. Polite, yet tough. They view kindness as weakness.
 
The "Loss Control" folks at Wal-Mart are the only ones who are having any fun, dashing into the parking lot after "perps", for minimum wage + 10%.
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Actually, Loss Prevention at Wal Mart makes management wages. Same with Longs Drugs and Burlington Coat factory, to name a couple.


And besides, where do you think the Mall Ninjas get their start?
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You have it backwards,man. Loss Prevention is higher in the food chain.
Security is lower rung.
Sheessh, I thought everybody knew.
 
Jeff White:If you carry your weapon so that you can fight crime and/or evil, I would suggest that you're in the wrong line of work. Just because you haven't been sued, injured or arrested yet, doesn't mean it won't happen at some time in the future. You should make certain that the outcome of your intervention is worth the risk you're taking. As far as I'm concerned, given only the situation metioned in the first post in this thread, you just said that your life is worth whatever Wal-Mart was charging for the CD/DVD or whatever else the shoplifter allegedly took.

So are you saying that the LPO's life isn't worth as much as mine, if it was you in the struggle would you still be saying that your life isn't worth that much? I mean you just said you had 19 years on the job as a peace officer, I would think you would welcome assistance when you needed it, then again I also know there are many LEO's out there who think they need no assistance what so ever regardless of the situation. I'm sorry if you think I am wrong here but my life isn't worthmore then anyone elses(criminals excluded) So if you think that maybe it's you who need to look for a different line of work, As I said I carry my weapon for not only my protection but for the protection of others, and I am a citizen, so are you saying that Police officers only carry to protect themselves.... Ohh and You can be sued for anything, so me why worry about something that can happen just because I walk out the door. are you woried that you will be sued when you are driving?... I mean my dad was sued over an accident that wasn't his fault, does that mean my dad doesn't drive anymore NO so if you are so concerned about being sued don't carry a weapon it's that simple, are there steps to take to CYA yep there sure are.

Josey: In my state, shoplifting AND resisting arrest by force becomes Robbery, 2nd. Felony.
The same applies here where I live, so now the shoplifter has now commited a robbery...... More serious crime I would think.

Jeff white again: Horge brings up a good point. When you carry a weapon there is at least one weapon in every situation you become involved in..the one you brought there.
Well if you are carring concealed in all reality no one will know but you, if you are carring in a holster that your weapon comes out of easily, maybe you need to rethink your holster needs, every holster I use will retain the weapon even if turned upside down and smacked repeatidly. And with regards to LEO's I was amazed when I rode along with Rochecter NY PD one night, I being from Washington Most if not all departments here require a triple retention holster while on duty, what amazed my form my ride alon was that they where using single retention holsters. I had carried ina triple retention, and even told the officer I rode with that I felt uncomfortable without one, I mean why make it easy for the BG, how many times have you seen or heard of a BG overpowering a cop and trying to take thier weapon but couldn't get it out of the holster. I have even brought up the fact to our armory SGT, since I work in a prison, and our perimeter units are armed, and are using the uncle mikes holsters, they are single retention, I told them that when dealing with an escapee wouldn't it be better to have a triple retention so far everyone agrees, but we don't buy the holsters the state does, so until they see the light we are stuck with what we got.
 
Okay, let's stick with the reality of the situation, as it is what we know for sure. We have an individual with a wife and two young children who sees a potential problem occurring at teh Wal Mart. What are his obligations? Legally? None. he has no legal responsibility to get involved or assist in the detention of someone, especially not knowing the situation (why was he being detained? who knows...). Morally? This is where the fun begins. We can spend a week debating teh morality of stepping into this situation, but in the reality of the situation, our man did the right thing, morally, ethically, and legally. What did he do? he made sure his wife and children were safe, by noticing a problem, watching the situation unfold, and taking care of his family. Playing "what if" can be fun, but let's not forget reality. Brave for being situationally aware, and protecting your family. And, more so, bravo for thinking "what if" and allowing us this entertainment.
 
If someone had been hurt (say assaulted, left bleeding on the floor, etc.) and I witnessed it, I think I might have tried to stop him. But for a property crime I did not see I think I'd let those who's job it is do their job.

But If I had my kid with me I would NOT have left my kid alone to do anything.
 
Since we are all so good at "what if'ing", let's look at this situation again:

1. The "suspect" just dissed the Wal Mart guy, who wants to get even.

2. The suspect has been dating the Wall Mart guy's sister, and he wants it to stop.

3. The suspect has been dating the Wall Mart guy, and they are having a lover's quarrel.

4. The suspect and the Wall Mart guy belong to different gangs, with a score to settle.

and so on....

See how quickly you can end up involved in something you know nothing about? We 'assumed' the "suspect" was a thief, and the Wally World guy was acting "on the job". None of that may be true. If no lives are at risk, be a good witness. I guarentee you'll feel stupid when you grab the "suspect", the Wally World guy punches him out while you hold him, and then you find out is was a personal beef, not a theft. And his lawyer will have a field day with your bank account.
 
kd7ctv,
Let's reveiw the situation as smoke originally posted it:

The wife and I are making a quick run to the major metroplitan area closest to us, she decides at the last minute to make a diaper run to the Walmart.

We are walking up to the front door and observe security anda cashier dash out of the store and grab a guy. They get him by the arm and walk him back inside. Guy looks like a sterotypical thug.

THe wife is holding the hand of our 4 year old and I have the 18month old in my arms. As the wife is getting a basket I'm still watching the to see what they do with this guy they caught.

The large security guy is still holding on to the arm of the guy and the cashier has walked off. The security guy is talking on a radio. The suspected BG is eyeing the door and the security guy is not paying a lot of attention but still has him by the arm.

I told my wife "He's fixing to run." THe guy was all but holding a sign announcing his intentions. As I said this the BG raises his arm real casually and the security guy lets go and the BG bolts for the door like a shot. HE easily outruns the overly large security guy (who was much faster than I gave him credit for) and then a swarm of Walmart people hit the door and I can't see anymore. Don't know if they caught him or not, but the odds were good. For some reason there were a bunch of cops and firetrucks and EMT in the parking lot around a car, when I could last see the bad guy he was heading straigth towards them.
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What information do you have to make your decision to intervene with? What do you know for sure? Do you know for sure that the sterotypical thug has actually committed a crime? No. Given Wal-Mart's policy on keeping eyes on shoplifters there is a good possibility he did...bet then again, maybe he didn't. We had an incident here where a Wal-Mart LP person followed a woman out of the store, confronted her, she refused to cooperate, got in her car and left. LP guy jumps into his car, chases the woman down the road, she pulls into a convenience store for gas, LP guy pulls in and blocks her in and tries to take her into custody. Convenience store clerk calls 911. Our officers show up to what they think is an attempted abduction. Once things get sorted out, it turns out the LP guy had the wrong woman, and she was the wife of a local attorney :uhoh: .

Who's life was in danger?
As I said this the BG raises his arm real casually and the security guy lets go and the BG bolts for the door like a shot.
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Smoke didn't say that the suspect attacked the LP person. The suspect didn't attack anyone else. What do you think might have happened if you'd have jumped in and started a fight with the suspect? Would he have reisted your tackle? You say that every CCW holster you own will hold your handgun when it's held upside down. That's not the best judge of how secure it would be in a fight. Have you ever gone full contact for a minute or two with your CCW gear on? Even though you say your weapon is concealed, it's not likely to remain so once the fight goes to ground. It probably won't take the BG long to figure out you're armed in a ground fight either. I don't see any way you're going to be effective hand to hand while worrying about retaining your weapon in an open topped holster.

Retention holsters are a liability unless the officers using them or the department issuing them are willing to devote the hours of training necessary to become proficient in their use and to maintain that level of profiency. Most manufacturers recommend weekly practice. This sounds easy until it comes time to actually make the time to do it. If I were responsible for arming a prison escapee detail made up of COs who normally aren't armed, I'd issue single retention holsters too. I think the likelyhood of an officer who probably hasn't even worn a holstered weapon since the last qualification shoot would be too slow or maybe even unable to draw his weapon if needed. There are other ways to retain your weapon then just by using a level III holster.

I'm not against helping someone. I do recommend that we weigh the cost/benefits ratio before we jump into a situation. Armed citizens have to always remember that they bring a gun to every fight they get into. In my opinion the situation Smoke related was not a good situation to become involved in. That doesn't mean that one should never become involved.

Jeff
 
If you stopped him you would be affecting a citizens arrest. In Oregon, in order to make a citizens arrest you have to have actually witnessed a crime. This applies to the guard as well. So the "suspect" running away is not a crime, the guard may have (better have) seen him shoplift, but you did not. Guards are not sworn officers so you could not be witnessing resisting arrest either.

I would imagine all states are simular...citizens have to witness the crime in order to make an arrest, police need PC only. The only way I would stop him is if I witnessed him assaulting someone or a simular violent felony. I wouldn't get involved (physically) over a misdemeanor even if I did witness it.
 
kd7ctv, the training I got in CCW class told us to stay out of any situation we could. Give up the wallet or run the other way, but get out of it without shooting if you can. If I pull up to the 7/11 and there's a guy with a gun pointed at the clerk's head, am I going to jump in? Not on your life! One guy here did that, took a bullet to the head and left a wife and kid behind. For what? Convenience store clerks get shot once in every 32 or so robberies around here, so chances are there is no need for you to intervene. I do not get paid to protect others, nor do I have any legal immunity.

I think Smoke did the right thing. Around here Wal-Mart "guards" all seem to be at least 60 years old and ride around in the little carts with the lights flashing. Let 'em run the guy down with the security cart. :p
 
smoke, I hope this question is in the nature of a joke. No rational person would put themselves, or their family at risk to stop a shoplifter in Wally World.
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Why?

Its a little overdone, but I am sure many people felt the same way in Nazi Germany about the Jews. Why should I put myself and family in danger to help someone else? If at a time when this incidient is so minor and you do nothing, why do you think you will do something when it "really" matters?

When it really matters, you wont know it. You will instead sit back and think "how does this affect me and my family."

You should do it because its the right thing to do.
 
Its a little overdone, but I am sure many people felt the same way in Nazi Germany about the Jews. Why should I put myself and family in danger to help someone else? If at a time when this incidient is so minor and you do nothing, why do you think you will do something when it "really" matters?
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Um, so you are HONESTLY comparing the act of allowing a shoplifter get away at Wally world to allowing a race of people to be incinerated?
 
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