Scenario...What Would You Do?

[Ryder]

Sounds pretty straightforward to me

The guy at the door is there to watch out for his buddy and he is a stationary target in relation to the shooter. The guard will probably drop you if you attempt to take out the shooter. The shooter is pre-occupied and is less likely to notice your movements. Taking the door guard out of the equation is a safer bet and is bound to prevent any further shooting of innocents unless the shooter is deaf. The shooter is no longer topped off with ammo as was the guy at the door. If possible I'd take cover after shooting the guard, if the shooter wants to continue to play he will have to come to me. If he doesn't then it's over.

 

[B_Scott]

The active shooter is the one pulling the trigger, so if he hears a shot he may become concerned.
Secondary Scenario:
You take out guard at door. Now active shooter knows a good guy has a gun. He takes a hostage and orders you to put your gun down.

 

[durango]

Good scenario to think about and not at all far-fetched. I was in San Diego in 1984 when a lone individual walked into a McDonalds a few miles south in San Ysidro and calmly walked through the restaurant shooting and killing 21 people. The CCW restrictions in Southern California of course ensured that nobody had any means to fight back. I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be sitting there with my family waiting for him to get to my table.

Anyways, as far as the 2 shooter scenario is concerned, I think I would most likely down whoever is closest to me (and the greatest threat to me) first. If that guy by the door has a gun drawn as is guarding the crowd as his buddy does the shooting, they are both equally involved. If the guy by the door has no gun drawn, I'd go for the shooter first. My overall strategy is always protection of myself and my family. Defense of others is laudable but not the priority.

 

[P95Carry]

He takes a hostage and orders you to put your gun down.

Hmmm ..... that would be a whole new can'o'worms eh!! I guess it would be hoped that BG by door could be taken outa the frame quick enough to get onto BG shooting before he has enough time to register the new threat. Speed would be of the essence.

Then too .. even if a hostage was taken . and assuming the BG has already shot/killed .... then who is to say the hostage is too safe . Surrendering one's piece at that stage would be probably useless as you would be probably next to receive a BG bullet. Hell ... not a good situation, however you look at it..... and decision making time would be awful short.

 

[clint1911a1]

I'd have my wife lay down some covering fire with the 'ole Thompson whilst I found some defilade and got the Browning .30 caliber into position. All the while my daughter would be on the horn with the firebase, calling in coordinates for the 155's.

 

[King]

As far as the potential for taking a hostage is concerned, you have have to get the BG at the door and then acquire the shooter in your sights and stop him before he could take a hostage.

If they aren't expecting their victims to be armed, I think the shooter would try to identify which potential victim was returning fire before he decides to take a hostage. By the time he see's me, it will be too late (for him).

 

[abaddon]

Take out the door guy first, as he has deliberately taken up a position wherein he can see and engage the whole restaurant. The other guy is moving between the tables and is a harder target - if you do him first it may take a while and the door guy will fire on you. Also, it will be very hard for the active shooter to quickly recognize who is shooting his friend. Even more so if you've managed to put cover or concealement between you and the active shooter.

Jeff

 

[sm]

Hostage adds a new wrinkle.

1)I have told those close to me that I know that can shoot, "IF" I am the hostage...Take the shot. I'm serious. I'm gonna drop like a rock to BGs oppisite side of firearm. One reason is shooters tend to focus on gun and many times the guns get shot.

2) My buds will do same drill, I'm to take the shot.

For me, there is no guarantee BG will not shoot me ( hostage) anyway.
That pesky +1 rule , +1 may/may not be armed, dunno but not giving another gun to aid BGs either way.

[ If I'm hostage ( maybe that +1 got me) I will go inside If can and do disarm, I have been in contact distance, and had to do. OTOH if BG does not know I'm armed, picked me at random, to use to get others to comply, gonna be rodeo of somesorts/someways. Luby's and similar come to mind.

By my lonesome,or out of town, as I've been known to do...gonna be looking/hoping and praying I see a TFL/THR/Molon Labe shirt, hat ...something...help!

 

[Denver]

".... then who is to say the hostage is too safe . Surrendering one's piece at that stage would be probably useless as you would be probably next to receive a BG bullet."

I understand the Israelis consider hostages to already be casualties.

Pray... and then shoot well.

Kudos on the oxygen mask analogy!

 

[mrming]

unless immedately under the barrel of the active shooter, doorman has to go first. Even if you only take him out before the active BG gives you the big game over some people will be able to at least escape because of your actions. At best, half the people will be able to walk out.. He also represents the least risk of rounds hitting unintended targets.


Active BG as already has been pointed out is probably going to be focused on his work, and may not immedately realize it wasn't his boy doing the shooting. He's going to be lower on ammo, and shouldn't be able to continue without someone keeping his back safe. The stationary target is of course going to be the easier one to hit. Even better, if there was a third he'd probably be playing lookout at the front of the restuarant. it'd take 3rd time to run in, so you'd have a chance to handle the other. Or he could turn tail and take heel.

Hostages... are not our problem. If you've taken out the doorman and the other grabs a hostage, its time to grab you and yours and take flight. When people start critizing you for it, You didnt know what to do. You couldn't take responsiblity for anothers life in that manner and had a ready exit for you and yours. What are you going to do? Stay and be killed when you disarm to save the hostage? Try and make the perfect shot? I can live with being called a coward for saving my life and those who were with me. I couldn't handle not making the shot and harming someone else because i stuck around in a situation well past my skill level.

 

[G-Raptor]

Sounds pretty straightforward to me

The guy at the door is there to watch out for his buddy and he is a stationary target in relation to the shooter. The guard will probably drop you if you attempt to take out the shooter. The shooter is pre-occupied and is less likely to notice your movements. Taking the door guard out of the equation is a safer bet and is bound to prevent any further shooting of innocents unless the shooter is deaf. The shooter is no longer topped off with ammo as was the guy at the door. If possible I'd take cover after shooting the guard, if the shooter wants to continue to play he will have to come to me. If he doesn't then it's over.

I agree with Ryder and Dr. Rob.

While it's desirable to stop the shooter first, IMO taking out his backup takes precedence. The guard is much more likely to notice your initial movements. While you're tracking a bead on the shooter, the guard will be tracking you. You're more likely to end up fighting two armed men rather than one - extending the fight and possibly getting yourself killed in the process.

If you drop the guard, the shooter may or may not respond to the additional gunfire - he may assume it's his buddy joining in on the fun. If he does respond, he may or may not immediately identify you as the threat. If he does ID you, he may or may not be able to respond before you drill him. This puts the odds in your favor.

[edited to add:]
As far as the shooter possibly taking hostages, what difference does that make? He's already shooting people, so if you hand over your gun the hostages will die anyway. This would be the time to use that deadly "hostage shot" you've been practicing. NEVER give up your gun - unless it's empty.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

I Hopefully, either the active shooter is actively moving around, so he would have his back turned to me so I could take out the guard and then shoot him as he is turning around.

But if that isn't going to happen quickly, I would probably shoot the active shooter first because he needs to be stopped immediately. But if I had a moment, or there was a pause (reload?), I would shoot the farthest person away first, so I could shoot the remaining person very quickly, without having to take carefull aim.

 

[dave5339]

I'd put 2 COM into the active shooter as my wife kept an eye on the door guard. If the door guard makes an aggressive move, down he goes.

Verify BG's are no longer an active threat, call 911, render what aid I can to the victims, and then call an attorney.

Semper Fi