Internet Ad - FTF Sale Only

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Jaywalker

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Okay, I admit I'm a little suspicious. I've been searching lately for a couple of specific handguns and searching all the usual suspects: GunBroker, ArmsList, and various specialty forums. Most times the ads are normal - buy and ship to my FFL, but some of them... aren't.

Some of them advertize nationally in these forums and sites, but then say "Face To Face sale only." Here's where my suspicion comes in - I can't think of a legitimate reason a guy wouldn't be willing to ship FFL to FFL, especially if I'm paying the shipping fee.

So, help me out here. What are good, legitimate reasons for someone insisting on a face-to-face sale?
 
I don't want to deal with shipping. I don't transact as a business and am happier with handshake/cash transactions. I also don't trust magic internets money and you shouldn't trust sending me a check for something up front. That being said, I never post nationally and always state just how far I'm willing to drive. My $.02....
 
Is it a local sale?
If so, I can think of one reason.
The guy is old, and maybe a primary care-giver to someone else old?

Myself, if I were selling a gun?

I could easily do it at the front door of my house.
Not so much if I had to leave my wife in the truck in a parking lot at an FFL while arranging shipping & transfer inside the store.

Because she probably would wander off down the street while I was inside doing it.

Other then that?
I can't think of anything.

Especially on an out-of-state deal.
Which would be illegal on a handgun sale anyway.

rc
 
Yeah, what I worry about on a guy who insists on FTF is that he suspects it's a serial number he doesn't want a record of his selling.
 
I prefer to buy used guns FTF. I have bought several online that were as described. However, I bought one that was clearly misrepresented and damaged severely. Straightening that out was a nightmare.
 
"So, help me out here. What are good, legitimate reasons...

...for someone insisting on a face-to-face sale?"
Legitimate?
Cash.
Shipping issues..
Doesn't want a lag between shipping and payment receipt.
Been burned by receiving FFLs queering the gun in playing with it or parts swapping - seen both.

Otherwise...
Keeping the serial number below the radar.
Looking to rip you off.
Fishing for a gun owners address pursuant to burglary.
He's a "denied" individual.


Me, I like FTF for inspection purposes. Most people put up substandard photos and there's no telling electronically as to operation.
 
I guess what I have an issue with is guys who take the time to advertise something on a national or international forum, like THR, then state "FTF only." What's the point of showing the listing to potentially thousands or even millions of people if you won't sell to any of them? Post it on a local forum or in your local newspaper.
 
I guess what I have an issue with is guys who take the time to advertise something on a national or international forum, like THR, then state "FTF only." What's the point of showing the listing to potentially thousands or even millions of people if you won't sell to any of them? Post it on a local forum or in your local newspaper.
Click to expand...

broader audience.

95% of the time I sell guns to friends or family.. The other 5% I will list locally, when that doesnt gather much interest, I will put it on a national board. Markets vary widely across America.
 
A lot of those FTF on national firearms auction sites are just idjits feeling out the value of a gun they might not even want to sell at all!

rc
 
A lot of potential buyers don’t necessarily rummage through multiple local listings that may frequently only have a half dozen or so listings. It doesn’t bother me if I see a listing on a national site that’s for a local FTF only. If it’s not my state, I just go on. Actually, I’ve seen a number of listings here on THR that are that way and they are usually for a reasonable price and guns that I actually want.

The one that bothers me is one seller on GB who is in my state, but will not sell FTF. He will only ship to my FFL I would much rather burn $10 in gas and be able to inspect the gun before handing over the cash and not have to pay $65/$70 in shipping and FFL transfer fees. It just says to me that there is probably something wrong with the gun and he doesn’t want me to find out before he gets my money…. No sale!
 
Twiki357: The one that bothers me is one seller on GB who is in my state, but will not sell FTF. He will only ship to my FFL I would much rather burn $10 in gas and be able to inspect the gun before handing over the cash and not have to pay $65/$70 in shipping and FFL transfer fees. It just says to me that there is probably something wrong with the gun and he doesn’t want me to find out before he gets my money…. No sale!
Click to expand...
Nah. I actually agree with not selling FTF. (1) I don't want some stranger at my house, and (2) I don't want to go somewhere else to meet and have the guy be a no show. And (3) I really don't want to be the last guy on the record owning the piece and having ATF show up asking me about it after it's been in a crime, after being either lost, sold, or stolen. Finally, (4) I just can't see myself explaining to Special Agent Smithfield O. Jones that I really didn't know it was a stolen piece when I bought it, and the seller was a man of middle age, medium build, arrived in a pickup truck, and no I didn't get either his plate or his drivers license, sorry. I even required my son to go through the FFL route when I gave him one. Once it leaves my possession, I have no control over it, so I don't want my name on the paper.

On the other hand, I always offer three-day inspection, so the guy can return it unfired if he thinks it isn't what he bought. There's fees and shipping involved if he exercises this, but if he feels strongly enough, it's an option. I've never had a complaint, and all I've bought this way have been as described. I won't by an "As-Is" at long distance and really don't understand why anyone would. (I also filter out and never see "Reserve" price auctions on GunBroker; this is no place to be playing games and basically announcing you're hiding something. That's something for a different thread, though.)
 
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Jaywalker... If ATFknocks on your door, tell them that you sold it legally and to go get bent. Something to be said for having a few that you bought FTF. And I am perfectly legal and eligible to purchase from an FFL.
 
FTF is fine if it works for both parties. I only buy guns that the seller is willing to ship from an FFL to my FFL....I use postal money orders so if he cheats me the post office will follow up for using the US mail to defraud. I pay in advance and have my FFL coordinate with his FFL. I pay all additional fees to have this done up front. I do the same when selling - I will only ship via FFL to an FFL and then only after I have received a postal money order which protects the buyer. If I get the MO from a buyer and don't ship the gun the USPS *will* follow up and it will not be pretty for me. I also have my FFL (licensed/bonded/insured) pack the gun and have it in their possession when the check hits the mail so the buyers FFL can verify that the gun is no longer in my possession so I *can't* cheat anyone. The FFL I use will not lie for me.

If someone doesn't wanna play this way I'm totally cool with it. :)

But I don't buy or sell FTF so that deal is done and he'll have to find another buyer. :cool: I completely understand if someone wants to do it FTF for any reason that suits them. I just don't roll that way personally.

And my experience with telling the ATF to "get bent" is that it's way cheaper to play nice with them than to pay a lawyer $100 an hour to get them off my back when they *do* get bent. I have not found the ATF to have a sense of humor although individual agents on the phone have been outstanding to me. Way easier and cheaper to do everything with ones hands on the table. IMO.

VooDoo
 
Vodoun daV,

You are singing my song in all particulars, except for letting loose of the item to my FFL before the buyer mails his MO. I hadn't considered that, but will incorporate that in the future. It's an excellent idea!

You also did the "ATF get bent" thing much more cleanly than I would have. I have too much to lose to want to share any more of it with the feds or lawyers just because I couldn't be troubled to be polite. Just as I wouldn't taunt a loaded policeman, I also won't taunt a loaded prosecutor.
 
I think people way over think the whole "What if the ATF shows up at my door?" thing.

Who cares if they show up at my door. I have never one time broken the law in regards to purchasing or selling a firearm. Let them come. And I don't have to pay a lawyer unless charges are filed against me. Which there won't be because I haven't done anything.

Oh and Vodoun, good luck finding an attorney for $100 an hour. You can't get a car mechanic for less than that. ;)
I work in the legal field and attorneys here start out and $175-$200 an hour. And we're in middle America where things are much cheaper than the coastal regions. I'd say we're probably in the lower half of the country in what attorneys charge.
 
Face to Face so that I can see see the individual I'm selling to & copy the pertinent info from the buyers Concealed Permit License, if not , NO SALE ............
 
Some people don't like messing with FFL's. I know several people who will not buy or sell other than FTF because they hate paper trails (and they're not doing anything wrong - they just don't want the government knowing they have or have had guns).

I personally have no issue doing business through FFL's, but I wouldn't immediately suspect someone if they wanted to buy/sell FTF only.

I will say that lately if I've sold anything I tend to try to sell FTF anyways. Seems that locally people are willing to pay more versus something like Gunbroker (some people are just intimidated by the perceived red tape of buying that way) and I typically can post my gun and have it sold and cash in hand within 3 or 4 hours, compared to days of auction time on Gunbroker then waiting for a money order to arrive via snail mail.
 
I can think of several really good reasons:

1) Many people don't feel comfortable with their knowledge of the applicable firearms laws with regard to how they must ship and what they must disclose, and which carriers they may use for a hand gun vs a long gun.

2) Many people don't want to mess with the hassle of dealing with UPS or FedEx front desk people who think they are unable to accept firearms. Do a search here on THR. You'll find many threads of people who have experienced this.

3) Many people don't want to deal with FFLs that have their own rules. For instance many FFLs require the sender to include a copy of their driver's license, which is *not* required by law. I don't personally object, but apparently many people do.

4) Payment is instant. No waiting for the buyer to send payment and for the FFL to provide his info.

5) Payment is secure, as long as you know the difference between real greenbacks and counterfeit ones. No worrying about fake money orders or cashier's check, or personal or company checks that are either bogus or will bounce (yes, I have received all of the above).

MANY people simply don't want to mess with shipping, and this is apparently well understood by the power that be here at THR. That's the reason why firearms sale posts are required to contain the state in the listing title--so that buyers can narrow down which ads to bother browsing.

-Matt
 
It's simpler to not deal with a FFL for one, and I don't like the hassle of dealing with FFL. Hassle hassle hassle. Time is money, if you're willing to pay more for my firearm and time to send it to you I'll do so through a FFL, but its a time thing for me. Just like I don't deliver unless they'll pay for delivery, gas and time!
 
Copy pertinent papers? So we rally against registration by the government, but you'll go ahead and do your own. Letter of the law. No more, no less.
 
Never bought a gun on line and done the whole shipping transfer thing. Doubt I ever will.
Liberals screwed up my FTF years ago when they plugged their so called gunshow loophole and last year when they totally eliminated private sales.
hopefully some of that can start to get fixed after tonight.
 
Most of the transactions I've done have been FTF private party transactions. If someone had a gun that I really wanted & they insisted that it be done through an FFL, that wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me. That said, I like to inspect a gun before buying and if I can buy without paying shipping or transfer fees, so much the better.
 
100% agree with VooDoo, couldn't have said it better myself.
 
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