Interstate Gifting question (Rifle)

[bigalexe]

Alright this is a question regarding the transfer of a firearm through a FTF Gift Transaction ($0.00) that is not a purchase or a trade. However the individual to which I am transferring the firearm is an out of state resident.

Do I need to go through an FFL anyway? Also would it change the rules any if I were to transport the firearm to them, as opposed to them coming to me to pick it up.

Disclaimer: The gun would be a rifle and I am sure it is legal to own/operate in their state and town of residence without licensing and legal crap. So I've made sure the gun conforms to local laws for them and my only question is regarding regulations on the transaction itself.

 

[Art Eatman]

Any interstate transaction must go through an FFL dealer and a 4473 in the receiving state. You can carry the rifle and meet the recipient at any dealer's place of business in the recipient's state.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Any interstate transaction must go through an FFL dealer and a 4473 in the receiving state. You can carry the rifle and meet the recipient at any dealer's place of business in the recipient's state.

According to the 18 USC 922 (b)(3) exception for long arms, the transfer could also occur at an FFL in the giver's state of residence as well. The transfer must occur through an FFL, however and cannot be done privately in order to comply with Federal law, regardless of where the transfer takes place.

 

[bigalexe]

Thanks, the most likely situation is me transporting the firearm and gifting it in the giftees state. The recipient prefers to drive through Canada on their way home and so Im not going to saddle them with that.

 

[Tamlin]

Don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but I have a similar question. Recently moved to Calif. from AZ (as in, 3 months ago). Going back to Tucson in a couple of weeks, and may want to pick up a rifle from my favorite gun shop out there (better prices and better selection than what I've found here). If I find what I want, can I (1) buy it myself, since it's not a handgun, or (2) have my brother (an AZ resident) purchase it, then gift it to me so I can bring it back with me? Is it just an extra form we fill out at the gun shop? Not trying to do any straw purchase thing - I can certainly pass any and all required background checks - I just want to be able to get something there if I find what I want. I've purchased around 5 guns already from this shop over the last couple of years.

Thanks.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but I have a similar question. Recently moved to Calif. from AZ (as in, 3 months ago). Going back to Tucson in a couple of weeks, and may want to pick up a rifle from my favorite gun shop out there (better prices and better selection than what I've found here). If I find what I want, can I (1) buy it myself, since it's not a handgun, or (2) have my brother (an AZ resident) purchase it, then gift it to me so I can bring it back with me? Is it just an extra form we fill out at the gun shop? Not trying to do any straw purchase thing - I can certainly pass any and all required background checks - I just want to be able to get something there if I find what I want. I've purchased around 5 guns already from this shop over the last couple of years.

1. I do not know the exact answer to this question. First, is out of state purchasing of long guns by a CA resident forbidden in CA law? I don't know the answer to that question. Second, can an out of state FFL comply with all California laws regarding the sale (or will the be willing too)? Those are the two questions that must be answered.

2. No, your brother cannot purchase the rifle and gift it to you. Because you are residents of different states, the gift must go through an FFL anyway. He could deliver the rifle to a California FFL for transfer to you. He could also deliver the rifle to an AZ FFL for transfer to you, but then the conditions of answer #1 must be met anyway, so you might as well buy the rifle yourself.

Also, for the rifle to be a gift, you can in no way compensate your brother for the rifle or for buying it.

 

[Quiet]

1. I do not know the exact answer to this question. First, is out of state purchasing of long guns by a CA resident forbidden in CA law? I don't know the answer to that question. Second, can an out of state FFL comply with all California laws regarding the sale (or will the be willing too)? Those are the two questions that must be answered.

First = yes.
CA law require firearms aquired by CA residents to be transfered through a CA FFL dealer.

Second = up to the out-of-state FFL dealer.
In order to legally ship a firearm to a CA FFL dealer, an out-of-state FFL dealer must register with the CA DOJ BOF. Even though it cost nothing to register and takes less than 5 minutes, many out-of-state FFL dealers do not want to comply and refuse to do business with residents from CA.
Also, depending on the firearm, it may need to be modified to be CA legal prior to being shipped to CA, another thing many out-of-state FFL dealers are not willing to accomodate.

2. No, your brother cannot purchase the rifle and gift it to you. Because you are residents of different states, the gift must go through an FFL anyway. He could deliver the rifle to a California FFL for transfer to you.
Also, for the rifle to be a gift, you can in no way compensate your brother for the rifle or for buying it.

This is correct, since he is a CA resident.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This is correct, since he is a CA resident.

It would even be more correct to say, "This is correct, because the recipient is not a resident of the same state as the giver". The prohibition for the out of state gift is Federal law, not just in California.

 

[CoRoMo]

When I was once gifting a rifle to an out of state resident, I knew the law required that the transfer take place through an FFL holder. However, none of the FFL holders I contacted knew the law, and they refused to do the transfer. They simply told me to give him the gun, shake hands, and leave it at that. Be prepared to educate the FFL holder(s) that you try and go through.

Of course, you can legally loan or rent a firearm to any non-prohibited person of any state, for any period of time, as long as that period of time is considered 'temporary'. The nonresident could come to your state, and you could hand over the rifle for them to borrow. Borrow for life? Nothing against that as far as I can tell.

 

[Tamlin]

Thanks all for the input. I'm thinking that, if I find something I want (I'm looking for a 45-70 Guide Gun, and I've seen them used at good prices in this shop in the past), I'll have my brother buy it; he can then loan it to me for hunting while I'm there (I still have an AZ hunting license), and when he comes out to CA to visit, we'll do a private party-to-private party sale through a CA FFL.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I hate to throw a possible wrench into the plan. Rumor has it (unconfirmed by me) that a CA FFL cannot process a private party transaction involving an out of state resident due to some computer glitch in the system that CA uses. Something about not being able to enter the driver's license number of the person transferring the rifle if it is an out of state ID.

Just a rumor, though, I don't know if it is true or not.

 

[natman]

I hate to throw a possible wrench into the plan. Rumor has it (unconfirmed by me) that a CA FFL cannot process a private party transaction involving an out of state resident due to some computer glitch in the system that CA uses. Something about not being able to enter the driver's license number of the person transferring the rifle if it is an out of state ID.

Just a rumor, though, I don't know if it is true or not.

Partly true. A CA FFL cannot process a PPT involving an out of state seller as a fixed fee face to face transaction because the FTF paperwork can't handle an out of CA ID.

However, there is no reason that the CA FFL can't log the gun into his books using the name and address on the out of state ID, then process the transfer like any other sale.

 

[Tamlin]

%@^#$ California!

 

[deadin]

However, there is no reason that the CA FFL can't log the gun into his books using the name and address on the out of state ID, then process the transfer like any other sale.

I thought the whole idea of having to use a FFL for transfers between a resident and a non-resident was to get the gun logged in and out of the FFL's book. This is to satisfy Federal law.
Does CA have something else? It sounds like some kind of paperwork that they require for FTF's between residents.

BTW, it doesn't matter if there is any transfer of money. It's all about transfer of possession.

 

[natman]

I thought the whole idea of having to use a FFL for transfers between a resident and a non-resident was to get the gun logged in and out of the FFL's book. This is to satisfy Federal law.
Does CA have something else? It sounds like some kind of paperwork that they require for FTF's between residents.

BTW, it doesn't matter if there is any transfer of money. It's all about transfer of possession.

California uses a system called DROS to perform the background check. It satisfies the Federal NICS system requirements.

If the seller is present, a slightly different version of the DROS form is used. However the FTF version of DROS only recognizes a CA ID, so you can't use it if the seller doesn't have one.

In that case you have to proceed as if the seller is not there and process as if the gun had been shipped in and sold to the buyer using the normal DROS form.

The DROS form in either version is in addition to the Federal paperwork.

The gun gets registered in the bound book in either case and the 4473 is filled out. In other words, the Federal portion of the paperwork is the same.

+1 to it doesn't matter if the sale is a gift or a sale. Transfer of possession is the key.

 

[deadin]

In that case you have to proceed as if the seller is not there and process as if the gun had been shipped in and sold to the buyer using the normal DROS form.

That makes sense. So, I assume there are some CA FFLs that either don't know this or don't want to be bothered.

 

[natman]

In that case you have to proceed as if the seller is not there and process as if the gun had been shipped in and sold to the buyer using the normal DROS form.

That makes sense. So, I assume there are some CA FFLs that either don't know this or don't want to be bothered.

No doubt. But it is a fairly unusual operation. California is a big state and with the possible exception of the Reno/Tahoe area there wouldn't be a lot of interstate FTF transactions.