Introducing your kids to firearms and the consequences

[smurf hunter]

In the spirit of this board, I intend to keep to the high road and not diverge into some rant. Please call me on it if I say anything inappropriate.

The other day my wife is on facebook and I hear her shout "oh wow, I can't believe this". My curiosity got the best of me, and I came over to look at her screen.

Turns out a neighbor had posted photos of his 10 year old boy shooting his FN9 at a "Sponge Bob" target in an indoor gun range. From the two photos I could see the boy had on "eyes and ears". My only safety concern may have been that his finger was on the trigger in one photo - but at least the muzzle was down range. I also didn't like the "gangsta" appearance in the boy's poses (tough guy look, twisted ball cap, etc).

I am very skeptical of posting anything about my family, esp. children on social media sites in the first place, and have some objection to the neighbor posting those photos for public viewing. I'm not wanting to judge, but *I* wouldn't choose to post them in that way.

Initially I thought my wife's objection was the posting of the photo, but apparently she disapproved of the boy shooting a handgun.

I was taken aback by this. I've been a recreational shooter for a few years. My 6 year old son has helped me deprime brass, knows the "4 rules" and has dry fired a .22 rifle many times. All of this has been with the implied approval of my wife. I had fully intended to bring him out to the range with me later this spring.

What my neighbor does is largely none of my business, but our kids play together. My wife and I both agree that this neighbor kid gets into mischief. Her fear is that he'll be inclined to either play with his dad's gun, or a random weapon if discovered in another home, etc. As info, this family has four boys between ages 6 and 10, all have gotten into minor trouble here and there. One has fallen out of an upstairs window (minor injuries only my some miracle), another put the family SUV in neutral and rolled through the garage door and various less catastrophic incidents over the years have happened.

Previously I was convinced that involving my kids (to the small extent I have) with guns, it removes a lot of curiosity and makes them safer.

I'm not agreeing with my wife on all of this, but I do owe it to myself and family to think beyond the "Eddie the Eagle" pamphlet.

The father in me wants to politely ask him about safety precautions and make sure his boys won't endanger themselves or other children around.

This seems intrusive -BUT he posted these photos on the internet for me to see.

Any constructive thoughts or advice are appreciated.
Thanks

 

[cambeul41]

Perhaps you could be sneaky:

• Mention that you saw the pictures
• Say that you want your son to be safe around guns
• Initiate a discussion of how to so raise him

 

[Ronsch]

Not to be too hard, but....

Seems like there are some assumptions here. First is assuming that they do not practice safety. Mayperhaps the young man was actually firing, and his father was trying to catch him as he squeezed off the round. Therefore, his finger would be on the trigger. Also, depending on the type of hearing protection (especially for me with muffs on), my covers get askance, so is it possible that his hat was inadvertently turned? I have been accused of looking too intense while shooting, especially during competitions, I tend to have on my "war" face. Shooting is a serious business to me, especially if prizes are up for grabs. Maybe the young man was concentrating.

Just saying...Seems like this might be a time to approach your neighbour with concerns, or invite him and his youngster to the range, and put on a display of what you consider proper shooting techniques.

 

[smurf hunter]

@Ronsch

Fair points. For whatever it's worth, in the photo with the finger on the trigger, the boy was making eye contact with the camera (90 degrees left of the muzzle). Not a super big deal, just a nit pick.

My wife feels his boys are too immature to be shooting a semi-auto handgun. I can't easily start THAT conversation, but a basic safety conversation might be a non-threatening dialogue.

 

[CoRoMo]

Her fear is that he'll be inclined to either play with his dad's gun, or a random weapon if discovered in another home, etc.

This is what you need to investigate. Since the neighbor posted the pictures for you to see, he sort of began the conversation. Just follow up with a question about a gun safe. Ask him if he recommends one, if he has one, as if you are interested in buying one. Find out if he secures all his guns from those kids or not. Maybe the conversation will move onto any safety lessons he might/not have given his kids. The whole thing about a finger on the trigger in the picture is useless.

I can relate BTW. A child that we are related to, posted several youtube movies of him and a friend. They had a few handguns and black rifles in every film. It appeared that these kids were shooting the movies without any supervision, so my wife contacted one of the parents and asked if the guns were real. They turned out to be painted airsoft guns, but the parents had no idea that the kids had made the movies and posted them on youtube.

 

[FAS1]

If you have concerns and your kids play together than you should discuss gun safety with everyone involved. After all, they were sharing the pics with friends, family, etc. on a public forum. Educate your kids but don't underestimate their curiosity. I raised two boys that were taught gun safety and went shooting at the range but never were very interested in guns. At least they stayed safe growing up around guns. It's one of the reasons I decided to make handgun safes. Everytime I would see a tragic story in the news I kept thinking I had a better way to at least secure a handgun for HD use that would normally be left out where people feel they can access it quickly. I thought I could address both concerns with a good quality product.

 

[rondog]

Taking kids shooting.....WIN!

Having them pose "gangsta style" for photos while shooting.....FAIL!

We need more youngun's involved in the shooting sports, but we DON'T need any more punks with guns. Big difference in the two, IMO.

 

[leadaddict]

10 year old boy shooting his FN9 at a "Sponge Bob" target

Does anyone else see the irony between this part of the story and the OP's name?

I think we need to crack down on all this insinuated violence against cartoon characters.

Is all seriousness though...

No one can say what age is appropriate for any child but their own for any given firearm. Obviously there are people who don't teach their children properly, but that isn't limited to age or any other demographic.

 

[Joe in fla]

Rongog: I couldn't agree more! +1

 

[Rembrandt]

We live in an "image society".....and a picture truly does say a thousand words. Yes, we need to be aware of what the images portray and how they are used, something adults need to pass along to youngsters. Kids and guns can be the most rewarding experience for a parent, or a heartbreak. The outcome lies with the adults. If a parent is fearful of teaching those responsibilities and preparing kids for adulthood and guns, then the child will be the poorer for the adults lack of parenting skills.

All three of these kids are now avid hunters, shooters, and NRA members who are now teaching their own children about firearms. (Two are NRA certified firearm Instructors and Hunter Education Instructors)

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I would focus my energy on my own kids. Teach them what's right and wrong and that not everyone plays by the same rules. Sounds like you could be stirring up a hornet nest bringing this up with the neighbor. It might get his kids turned against yours. The best way to teach is by example.

 

[Dulvarian]

Teach your own kids that if there is someone playing with guns they could be seriously injured. Teach them the four rules. Guns are never toys, should always be used under adult supervision (disbarring extreme examples of fending off home intruders, etc, which is documented). And if someone even mentions handling a gun, get out, and don't look back.

That same strategy of get out and don't look back applies to a lot more than guns, by the way. Teach YOUR kids to do the right thing. You might be surprised at how much influence your own children have in bad situations if they are properly instructed on what to do in bad situations. My children have been instructed well enough, and I trust them enough, that if there was a gun at their friends house that someone managed to get their hands on that they would walk.

To support that point, I'll leave a non-handgun related anecdote. My family was over at my brothers house, and my brother's step-son told my 6 year old that in his house, my son could say whatever bad words he wanted. A 6 year old, not being watched by his parents, told his older 'cooler' cousin that "My mommy and daddy told me that isn't what I'm supposed to do. I'll pass." That's the kind of moral instruction kids need. I was as proud of that as I was of my son's first bulls-eye shot. (On his first range trip, no less.)

All you can hope for is that you properly instruct your children to the point that they follow your guidance even when you aren't there. And it goes way beyond just firearms. Kids die and suffer grave injuries from a lot of things that aren't firearms. Look at the statistics if you want. Guns are one of the few things that I trust my kids 99.99% about because I think that is something I have instilled in them. Respect. And that 0.01% chance is the reason that I keep training them.

I don't want anyone to think I am on a high horse. I spend a lot of time making sure my kids are ready for the world. And guns are only a small piece of what will make up their lives.

YMMV.

 

[SG1]

I agree 100% with Dulvarian. You can't control what other people's kids do, but hopefully in the process of teaching our kids about gun safety we also influence them to exit any situation that is dangerous. Especially if their friends are handling guns or dangerous weapons they aren't supposed to have access to. Hopefully through education and hands on instruction we also diminish their curiosity.

My two cents.

 

[Davek1977]

A child KNOWLEDGEABLE about firearms and firearms safety is FAR more likley to handle a gun safely than a child with no instruction or knowledge. Guns were never really "taboo" in my house growing up. Dad has a few, and I knew they weren't to be touched. Somewhere along the way though, the "gun bug" bit me, and what once held little attraction to me suddenly became interesting. The first time I showed any curiosity about his guns, I got a lesson in gun safety. One by one, Dad brought out his guns, gave me a basic understanding of how each one operates, how to ensure they were unloaded, etc. He embraced my curisoity, rather than demonize it. He knew that, at that point, I was responsible enough to understand beyond "NO!! don't touch!!" Guns were "normalized" to me....I never had a desire to "play" with them, bedcause I knew if I ASKED....I'd not only get to touch, but I'd get to SHOOT.....and that was worth passing by the thrill of toying with guns when people weren't around. Demoning guns, or making them "taboo" is only going to increase the odds of your child becoming infatuated with them to the point of touching/playing/etc when they are unsupervised, IMO

 

[mcdonl]

I love these threads... it is all about safety.

My daughter understands and knows the four rules, and even though she does some things differently than I do (maybe BECAUSE) she does things differently than I do she is a damned good shot.

Here is a picture of her loading, and then shooting her own reloads. She was 11 at the time, but has been shooting since she was 7 or 8....





And, caliber and recoil does not seem to mean much to her as she is shooting .357's and 7.62x54 with no problems at all.

 

[ghoster]

Sounds like he has "BOYS" I also have 4 boys aaand 4 girls to. If that is all they have been into he is pretty lucky ---- city boys are never as ornery.
I also would not post pic's of my family with firearms on the web but my kids have fired guns since they were quite young with dad.

My 8 and 10 year old boys are very good shots with my 45 and 9mm. They have been shooting them for several years with me at the creek.

Sounds like you have a potential shooting buddy to me, personally I would tell the wife to chill and go ask my neighbor to go shooting.

Mommy's always worry, it's their job. Mine still fusses at me and I'm 49.

I wouldn't worry about the gansta stuff, unless his daddy is a dirtbag it is just a fad/fashon statement. My one boy's friend is a pure gansta - baggy pants, sideways hat, untied shoes ect --- heck of a shot and gets strait a's in school. He is just being COOL in his eyes. He also hikes his pants when I'm around as I usally give him a wegie

I just love to mess with his coolness

 

[Sam1911]

Several responses:

1) Hiding our activities makes it seem like we SHOULD hide our activities becasue there's something wrong, dangerous, or unseemly about them.

2) Hiding our activities misses the opportunity to put more positive, responsible, honorable shooting related messages out in the public eye.

3) Exposing out kids to guns and the shooting sports builds responsible and safe young people, used to taking potentially dangerous objects seriously. Keep them locked in a padded, safe, sheltered place until they're teenagers and they won't have developed the internal warning system that certain actions have consequences and some objects must be handled with respect. Then, when they're teenagers and break out of your hovering, stifling care, they'll wrap themselves around a tree or put a bullet in a friend because they had no frame of reference for handling dangerous tasks or items respectfully.

4) It would be a GREAT idea to get to know the family better -- and see what you can discover about their handling and storage practices. Kids are kids, but if Dad has a cavalier attitude about gun safety and responsibility, Junior can't be expected to be any better. Just because we're all "gunnies" doesn't mean we have to give everyone who shoots a blind eye. (Uh... pun not intended!)

5) The development of the ability to perform shooting skills varies greatly from kid to kid. The maturity to handle safety skills varies even more. Ask yourself honestly if your child is ready for ANY of that -- and then decide exactly how much he needs to be exposed to at a time.

6) My kids shoot, and I'm not going to hide that or pretend they don't.

 

[LiveLife]

When my son was young, I introduced him to firearms while I cleaned them. I showed him how they operate as a machinery and let him handle the parts. He soon got to help me clean them and the curiosity factor was covered with firearm safety strongly emphasized.

He didn't fear or wondered about the firearms and knew how to disassemble/assemble before he got to shoot them. It helped him focus on the shot groups instead of the noise/mechanicals of operating a firearm.

He also learned to service/ride his 6 speed quads before he learned to drive cars with manual transmission. It helped him transition as it removed the "technical fear" of operating the clutch AND keeping his eyes on the road.

I am for early responsible introduction and education of firearms.

Family that shoots together, stays together.

 

[Professor Gun]

I started my two sons shooting at about age 5. Started with rifles and revolvers in .22LR. Only one at a time got to shoot and I was within inches of my son at all times while he was shooting. They took turns shooting with Dad right behind them. If anyone violated any safety rule, no matter how minor, the violator went and sat in the truck for 15 minutes while his brother got to shoot non-stop.

When they got to around 10 or 11 (when I judged they were safe when independent) both could shoot at the same time while I stood a few feet away watching. I never did any shooting while they were shooting so I could watch them. Again all safety rules were rigidly enforced.

At about age 13 I began doing my own shooting while they were shooting, and they were allowed much more independence.

They are now ages 19 and nearly 17. They are safer (and have been since about age 12) than most adults with firearms. I trust them to go to the range by themselves and shoot any firearms in our safes. They are both avid shooters and hunters and both assist with my hunter safety classes and women's pistol classes that I conduct. Teaching responsibility with a firearm has also taught them responsibility in other areas of their lives.

It took a lot of my time when they were young, but it has paid off in a big way. I have two shooting and hunting buddies who are ready to go about any time I go shooting or hunting.

 

[rangerphil]

SAM1911, I want to comment on the pic you posted. Folks, this is the proper way to supervise a young shooter. One hand is on the child in order to allow dad to control the child's body position and add support if necessary. The other hand is hear the firearm in order to provide directional control of the weapon while giving instruction. IMO, particularly for a handgun, an adult should be so close to the young shooter that it's almost like they are both firing the weapon. BTW, your girl shows great form. Well done, sir.

 

[mcdonl]

Folks, this is the proper way to supervise a young shooter. One hand is on the child in order to allow dad to control the child's body position and add support if necessary.QUOTE]

What age would you say this applies to?

 

[Sam1911]

BTW, your girl shows great form. Well done, sir.

Well, thanks! She's seen a few things, and I don't let (my) new shooters get away with bad form. It slows down their progress and lets the gun beat them up. Weight forward, isosceles stance, proper grip, etc.

What age would you say this applies to?

Well, she was seven when that picture was taken a couple of years ago. (For scale, that's a 4" 629, with .44 Specials.)

I'd say it applies up to pretty near adulthood. I don't worry so much about an older shooter being able to support the gun, but I DO keep a tight reign on muzzle discipline.

I use a very similar approach with new shooters in IDPA practice/competition as well, but just a step or so back and out of their line of sight. I can't catch every conceivable mistake they might make, but I CAN be physically on them if they start to break the 180 deg. plane.

We're helping these new and young folks to develop the thinking skills and ingrained habits which will guide them every time they pick up a gun. But when they're very new -- and they're just about on information-overload anyway -- we can act to cushion their blunders and catch their mistakes before they become grave. Yelling at a person who's just endangered the whole line is a VERY inferior to being immediately present to STOP the shooter from endangering anyone in the first place.

In our practice sessions, if someone breaks 180 and sweeps the crowd, they're DONE for the day. That's a good teaching moment but a very hard lesson. And, there's great risk to everyone. If a newbie nearly breaks 180 but my hands are on their wrist at about 165 ... we can say, "WOAH! Careful there. Let's try that again." MUCH better.

 

[rangerphil]

I don't know that I had a particular age in mind, but here's what I think. Again, especially for handguns, I think the initial instruction phase should look like the picture when the child is young....maybe up to 10-12YO or so. Once the child learns the basics, I think dad can assume a position directly behind the shooter without direct contact. As the shooter gains experience, I think the adult can adjust his position as long as he/she remains in very close proximity to the shooter. With my grandsons, I stay right beside/behind them until they are done shooting. I don't walk off to get a drink or more ammo, etc., even if its just a few steps. I want to be close enough to my grandsons to retake control of the weapon if necessary, and to provide ongoing instruction in the safe handling off firearms.

 

[mcdonl]

Ok, that makes me feel better. My daughter was 11 in those pictures and is very safe.

 

[rangerphil]

One more thing comes to mind. Aside from the obvious safety considerations, there is another practical thing to consider.

Young shooters can be nervous and excited as they are learning to shoot for the first time. The last you want is for an itchy trigger finger to discharge the weapon before the shooter is absolutely ready. Even if pointed in a safe direction, this can intimidate the child and cause them to unnecessarily fear the process of shooting.

One more thing about teaching proper shooting techniques in general. Even for new adult shooters, I stand DIRECTLY beside or just slightly behind the shooter. It's absolutely critical that you stop an unsafe action before it occurs.