Iraq War (for instance)

[neoncowboy]

cowboy.. you seem to miss the fact that we are presently there. You can't unring a bell.

No, I acknowledged that:

At this stage in this particular conflict, we're pretty well comitted to securing Iraq for as long as they need us. I am proud of the progress the Iraqis are making and hope they succeed at freedom. After that, I really want to see a foreign policy shift in America that includes:

Actually, if you think about it, 'taking sides in their religious wars' is automatic. We're not a muslim theocracy. Therefore we're automatically the enemy. We're high on their list as we're a successful secular society.

I disagree. I believe that if we were merely a successful secular society we wouldnt' attract nearly the amount of attention from the muslim terrorists that we have. Again, Switzerland is a typical example of a non-intervening, successful (as all get out) secular/Christian society. Nobody messes with the Swiss and I don't think that has anything to do with their 'citizen army' defense force.

Instead, we use our success to blatantly, forcefully try to shape the entire world in our own image. It goes all the way back to the Spanish-American War...but since then:

• what were we involved in WW1 for?
• How many Jews did we save in WWII and what happened to Poland?
• What, besides killing a bunch of American kids and testing out new fighter planes, did we accomplish in Korea in the 50s?
• Who benefitted from the Cold War?
• 60,000 American lives later, is Vietnam more free or less free? Is America more free or less free as a result of our involvement in Vietnam?
• Grenada? ***?
• The Balkans? What do the Balkans have to do with preserving freedom?
• The Gulf War? What's it to us? (By this time, we pretty well staged that whole war by arming Saddam and baiting him into invading Iraq...but still, why do we need to be involved there?)
• Gulf War 2? The 'liberation' of Iraq. It's great to have the despot deposed, but frankly, the terrorist have a way stronger will for posessing the middle east than we're ever going to have. We will withdraw from that land eventually, and it will be ruled by Islamic dictators. In case we haven't noticed, that's the form of government the people of that region are most comfortable with.

I just don't see the point of being always involved in all this crap. Have we done some good, sure we have...but is any of it worth what we've invested and worth the trouble we have undeniably brought upon ourselves?

I don't like the trend and I don't like the results of American interventionism all around the globe. We aren't really fixing anything...just shifting global problems around and making enemies in the process.

I think we'd make a much stronger case for the cause of freedom and liberty by staying home and preserving freedom and liberty here and encouraging those around the globe to be free...through trade and our example. If they want to be free, let them bleed for iit like we did. It's not worth our blood, honor and treasure to go advancing freedom upon people who don't want it badly enough to bleed for it themselves.

I'm very proud of the Iraqis and hope their cause succeeds and that they play a role in reshaping the middle east. Likewise, I am terrified of Iran and hope that the Israelis act decisively and preemptively to neutralize the threat. It may be too late for us to become uninvolved before smashing every last one of the Islamic terrorist sponsoring nations...but I don't see Americans having the guts for that mission. So where does that leave us?

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Fine piece of cultural relativism there cz



The only "dog" I see is the strawman of an argument you posted. We cannot have the moral high ground in our present conflict with Islamic extremists because of the Crusades?

Sir, you've made your mind up, fine...i don't take it lightly that someone chooses to believe otherwise...that's your choice...but, if what you believe has worked for you so far, who am i to disagree. if you want to sticky your thinghy into others affairs...then, you in for a wake up call, Sir..it is not going to go away quietly into the good night...get ready for a licking...as we have regretably found out in the present struggle to control Iraq...that is a fact...like a wise man once told me, the worst kind of blind man is He that will not see...YMMV

 

[C. Rabbit]

would that somehow be similar to the Catholic/Christian crusaders

No. The Crusades were a response to centuries of Islamic expansion, and attacks by the Turks on the Byzantines.

and the conquistadors that "tamed" the New World?

Closer, but the Spanish did try to convert the inhabitants, and they didn't try to conquer the New World because of their religion.

You can call it 'hating western values' and pit Muslim against Christian...but then you'd have to explain why Switzerland isn't a terrorist target.

And you'd have to explain why France is.

This may be true...but without our blatant interference all over the middle east and our taking such an active role in trying to shape their political processes and policies, their oil production and sales practices and their social values...would they have any (much less crucial) support from the Arab/Muslim people at large? Without that support, would they really be able to wage a war/jihad against us? I don't think so.

So now diplomacy is an excuse for terrorism? Was Clinton trying to change their 'social values' when they attacked us in 1993, 1998, and 2000?
The reality is that this cannot be explained by such mundane reasons as interference in their affairs. The people are oppressed and the news censored. Do you think the average Joe over there wakes up and, upon reading his paper, proclaims 'Those dastardly Americans are using diplomacy again! I wish Osama would bomb them.'? Nor did the terrorist need public support from Arab countries to plan attacks in Afghanistan.

Our enemies have not been developed, our realization that they exist and won't go away by Bill Clinton biting his lip on TV has. Our enemies don't care about American foreign policy (though it provides a convenient excuse to dupe people), they are motivated by religious fanaticism, the belief that the infidels, and their way of life, must be destroyed. Remember how terrorists in Iraq recently said 'democracy is a tool of satan' or some such thing? Look at conflicts around the globe and observe how many involve Muslims on one side or the other. Sudan, Chechnya, Indonesia-by the way, how does your theory of 'people hate our diplomacy so much they'll blow themselves up to kill us' fit in with terrorists attacking the most populated Muslim country in the world?-Israel, Iraq, Balkans, French Riots, Australian riots, etc., etc.

CR

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Yo, Mr. Neoncowboy, +1

You have a tough row to hoe here though.

As much as we like to espouse, "Truth, Justice and the American Way" I yam sorry, Superman was a comic.

We are a warlike nation. We might as well be a bunch of Vikings in our longships or some Huns sweeping down across the Steppes.

One guy said way up string,

No, I don't believe we brought this on ourselves by making enemies. You can follow that trail all the way back to Cain and Abel. The sorry fact is that there is no race, no nation on earth which did not displace or conquer someone else. And therefore there is no people, race, nation, or faith who can justify doing what the Islamists do today.

which, if read faithfully, means the complete opposite of what he was trying to say.

If there is no race or nation that did not displace then why would Islam be any different? I call doublespeak.

Then later, he said,

War is not good for business.
Those cold-hearted greedy corporations had it much easier when there was no war in the ME. Whatever you may think of "Big Oil", it was sure cheaper in 1989 to get oil out of the region than it is now. Why fight for oil when you can just buy it? Why would a preisdent get himself into the present mess for money, when he and his friends already have plenty? Makes absolutely no sense.

I call BS here.

War is GOOD for business. WWII created the middle class and enrichified many many.

Why did Eisenhower warn us of the Military Industrial Complex? To keep us safe from video games?

I will post arguments against more of the inanities presented above at a later time.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Crosshair]

Unfortunately, America can't isolate herself anymore, though in some cases I'd love to see her withdraw: Europe, for example. Let those ungrateful jerks carry their own defense.

The seeds of the present conflict were planted before America's birth, planted by the Prophet himself. Let us not forget that the Crusades were a COUNTERATTACK in response to Islam's invasions of the west.

Yes, get our people out of Europe, they are big boys now and can take care of themselves. You are also correct about the Crusades, remember Christopher Columbus got the funding for his trip after the Spanish had repelled a muslim invasion of Spain.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

So, now we are supposed to believe that Cortez went to Mexico to bring them Christianity.

The good ol' USofA was almost isolationist prior to WWI.

Wilson just HADDA make the world safe for Democracy. (a classic PR misnomer)

We were the powerhouse in WWII because were almost self sufficient (another way of saying isolationist). We were a manufacturing giant. We created the war materials for almost all the Allies. (That was good for business)

WWII created the middle class with discretionary spending abilities out the wazoo. (a huge market)

High paid workers are good for markets, but not conducive to high profit margins. Manufacturers had to figure out how to make more, make more.

Thus we export the labor to a third world country and import the goods.

So there you have it. Make it out of the country and figger out a way to avoid import tariffs. Nafta, Gatt, Gafta, Crafta, Crapta ad nauseum. In order to control the profits, we gotta mess with foreign countries.

There may be no cure for it. China is doing now, what we were doing in and post WWII. American business leaders are losing control of their cheap labor pools. Now the money is leaving the country and the cheap dvd players are coming in. Soon the dvd players will be at the dump and the money will all be in China.

We are eating our seed corn.

We think we can maintain superiority by shuffling papers and electrons. High tech is moving offshore too.

The end is near, repent.

 

[Khornet]

So sorry, crop circle,

but in spite of what the Jefferson Airplane said, war is most definitely not good business. It complicates things like exchange of funds, shipping of products, etc. Stability is what big business needs, and they don't care what kind of stability it is. Big business would cetainly have preferred that the current war was never started. They can make the big bucks easier in peacetime.

You have to understand that business is apolitical. It has no ideology. Its only guiding principle is fidelity to the stockholders. That is neither admirable nor reprehensible. If you insist on assigning some nefarious geopolitical ideology upon it, you are being a simpleton.

 

[neoncowboy]

So now diplomacy is an excuse for terrorism?

No! We aren't talking about excuses...there is no 'excuse' for terrorism or unprovoked violence upon innocents. That's not what I'm talking about.

I am just postulating that maybe America's LONG STANDING foreing policies of:

• unconditional support for Israel
• promoting democracy and western values (in other words: pissing on islamic theocracies) in the middle east
• supporting the warlord/dictator of the month in whatever pissant nation in the middle east

Might be contributing factors to why they hate us enough to blow themselves up. Especially the Israel thing...we've pretty well aligned ourselves with the whol Arab world's most bitter, hated enemy. It's not an excuse, but it doesn't take a genius to see how they would identify us as their enemy.

 

[cowboybobb693]

No! We aren't talking about excuses...there is no 'excuse' for terrorism or unprovoked violence upon innocents. That's not what I'm talking about.

I am just postulating that maybe America's LONG STANDING foreing policies of:

• unconditional support for Israel
• promoting democracy and western values (in other words: pissing on islamic theocracies) in the middle east
• supporting the warlord/dictator of the month in whatever pissant nation in the middle east

Might be contributing factors to why they hate us enough to blow themselves up. Especially the Israel thing...we've pretty well aligned ourselves with the whol Arab world's most bitter, hated enemy. It's not an excuse, but it doesn't take a genius to see how they would identify us as their enemy.

So Neon are you saying that we SHOULD NOT be supporting Israel ???
Let me see, who is the democratic nation in that area of the world that wholly supports us ??? Who despite being bombed/rocket attacked during the 1st Gulf war listened to reason and did not NUKE the crap outta Iraq ??? Who has had more citizens killed by psyco bombers in that region ???
Oh and by the way, I'm Jewish, so I do take your comments to heart.

 

[shermacman]

Yup, it is all about Israel.
If we abandoned Israel the entire Islamic world would suddenly stop behaving like a Stone Age death cult. Once again, Islam would become the freedom loving, peaceful bastion of Democracy and Love that it was until 1948.
Truth and justice would reign over the entire Middle East!
Honest!

 

[cowboybobb693]

Yup, it is all about Israel.
If we abandoned Israel the entire Islamic world would suddenly stop behaving like a Stone Age death cult. Once again, Islam would become the freedom loving, peaceful bastion of Democracy and Love that it was until 1948.
Truth and justice would reign over the entire Middle East!
Honest!

Good One !!!
thanks for the chuckle

 

[cropcirclewalker]

You have to understand that business is apolitical. It has no ideology. Its only guiding principle is fidelity to the stockholders. That is neither admirable nor reprehensible. If you insist on assigning some nefarious geopolitical ideology upon it, you are being a simpleton.

I don't remember what the Jefferson Airplane said, but I do remember some words in an old song by Bobby Dylan, back in the folk music days when I was a dumb a$$ed sailor.

"I'm an old time travelin' man, And I know just what to do.

Yes, I'm an old time travelin' man, and I know just what to do.

I sell rifles to the Arabs.............

I sell tennis shoes to the Jews."

As much as I hold him in low regard, FDR manipulated us into WWII to cure us of our depression.

Please do not say that war is not good for business.

Some say that Kennedy was assinated because he was going to bring us home from Viet Nam.

You have to understand that business is apolitical. It has no ideology. Its only guiding principle is fidelity to the stockholders.

Your own words above are just a further argument in my favor. It's almost as if you are doing that on purpose. Is this satire?

I would never stoop to calling you a simpleton, since I prefer to drive you crazy by consistently responding to your inanities in a calmly logical fashion which does not include name-calling, a procedure I learned from Pax.

 

[BADUNAME4]

There was no link between Pearl Harbor and Hitler just as there was no link between 9/11 and Saddam, but we took the necessary decisive action each time. Said another way: The war in Iraq, specifically, is our only option. The web of global terrorism wants you and I dead and it is growing. They seek to blame our freedom for the failed policies of their oppressive forms of governance.
The current strategy is dangerous, risky, divisive and brilliant. I say "divisive" because self serving legislators who have a track record of putting politics over people are using the same tactics that got us all into this mess in the first place.
In it's simplest discussion: Terrorism diminishes as freedom increases. People are less likely to become terrorists when they're free and therefore have better options available. Or: The choice is war or terror - take your pick.
So, yes; it's my opinion that it's unpatriotic to be against this war and it's treasonous for Congressmen and Senators to undermine our President at every opportunity, during time of war, for (perceived) political gain.

 

[gc70]

The statements I've read from Osama all indicate that 9/11 was retaliation for:
1. our troops stationed all over saudi arabia
2. embargoes of Iraq
3. unconditional support of Israel

And why was it a problem for American troops to be invited by the government of Suadia Arabia to use facilities in that country? Could it be because the troops were infidels who had the audacity to even set foot on the soil of that most holy of Islamic countries? That was bin Laden's first complaint.

Complaints about the embargoes of Iraq and unconditional support of Israel were simply PR bones tossed out to play on the popular reactions of the Muslim masses. Blue-blooded Saudi Sunnis like bin Laden could care less about a majority-Shiite country like Iraq or about Palestinians - except for their propaganda value.

 

[JerryM]

Terorists attacked us because they desire to take over the world for Islam. They hate Israel and because we are committed to the security of Israel they hate us for that.

We are embarked upon the correct course for ourselves and the world in general. The notion that we should just come home and all will be well, plus thinking that "big oil" is the reason for the high prices of gasoline, is nonsense.

The more I see of Libertarianism the more it looks like anarchy, and on the moral side Democrats.
Jerry

 

[cropcirclewalker]

I harken back to the fifties. I was just a kid but I can still remember my grandfather (born 1874) and his absolute belief that TV rassling was real.

O'course, he would have been in his late 70's then and maybe senility was setting in.

It was beyond his comprehension that the rulers of the networks would stoop so low as to lie to us.

When I hear the repetition of the spins here it just makes me think of him. The utter suspension of logic and reason in the belief that our rulers would not do bad stuff.

 

[Khornet]

Cropcircle,

"War is good business, invest your son. And I'd rather have my country die for me.." Jefferson Airplane

If you don't think business is apolitical and amoral, tehn you don't understand business. In which case, your therory about big busines being behind the decisions of nations is quite ill-informed, no?

 

[shermacman]

Yo, lost in the Crop Circle:

As much as I hold him in low regard, FDR manipulated us into WWII to cure us of our depression.

Wow.

Just plain wow.

No Japs, No Hitler, No Moose-a-leanie.

Wow.

Does any one else know this? I mean, dude, this is revolutionary! Or are you the only one who knows this?

 

[neoncowboy]

No Japs, No Hitler, No Moose-a-leanie.

Wow.

Why do you think the japanese attacked pearl harbor?

Hitler had been terrorizing Europe for awhile before we saw fit to intervene. What exactly was our purpose there? Protecting 'American freedom' somehow? What did we do in Europe in WWII...I mean, aside from helping to give birth to the USSR. We didn't save Poland from anything. We didn't save the lives of 6 million jews/gypsies. I guess we saved the French from the Nazis...but what good did that really do in the long run?

The way you say it, it sounds like the rise of evil dictators in Europe is such an obvious reason for America to send it's sons and daughters off to die...but I don't see it. I don't understand why we have to act as the arbiter of justice all over the world, especially in nations where the people themselves aren't willing/able to fight and repel that evil that threatens them.

Hitler was more or less a European problem. What did it have to do with us?

Not that there's anything wrong with fighting evil...just that it doesn't really do any ultimate good. The world remains plagued with evil and we spill our blood more or less in vain. Our involvement in Europe may have temporarily saved some people from suffering under some tyrant...but only to give way to some other people suffering (for years) under some other, much worse tyrant.

 

[neoncowboy]

Terorists attacked us because they desire to take over the world for Islam.

How did attacking us advance that cause? I mean, I can grant you that they would love an Islamic world and enjoy the delusion of grandeur seeing themselves as rulers of the world...but come on, they know that's a fantasy.

How was 9/11 a good move tactically if the strategy is world domination?

All they did was to piss us off and turn more or less the whole rest of the world against them. Much the same as sawing off heads in Fallujah a few years later.

These people are fanatics and tactical buffoons.

Yes, they hate us. But you have to acknowledge that we've been really generous handing them reasons to hate us.

 

[shermacman]

Not that there's anything wrong with fighting evil...just that it doesn't really do any ultimate good.

OK, I quit. You win. The sun will go cold, the universe will expand into entropic decay. Nothing matters anyway.

Have a nice day!

 

[neoncowboy]

So Neon are you saying that we SHOULD NOT be supporting Israel ???
Let me see, who is the democratic nation in that area of the world that wholly supports us ??? Who despite being bombed/rocket attacked during the 1st Gulf war listened to reason and did not NUKE the crap outta Iraq ??? Who has had more citizens killed by psyco bombers in that region ???

No, I'm saying that our foreign policy of support for Israel has been primarily the reason why we have so many enemies in the middle east.

I would think that a little more indifference toward Israel would be a good thing. It's not as if Israel needs our arms...they can get plenty of arms both internally and from the Russians. They don't need our money, there's plenty of money in the world earmarked for Israel. They don't need our military, for it's size, the Israeli army is the most dengerous in the world!

I would think Israel, if ever freed of all the strings attached to the foreign aid/arms support it receives from the US, would finally be able to take the gloves off the kick the crap out of her enemies that surround her.

The US state dept. demanding restraint from Israel is not really doing anything good for the Israeli people. Don't you think?

I'd love more than anything to see Israel level the Iranian nuclear facilities, sieze the temple mount, kill that psycopath the Iranians have as a leader and draw a line in the sand, daring the Syrians, Lebanese or anyone else to make a move.

That's a fight between Israel and her enemies though. I don't think it really has anything to do with the US.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

If you don't think business is apolitical and amoral, tehn you don't understand business. In which case, your therory about big busines being behind the decisions of nations is quite ill-informed, no?

You are just too clever by half. You say something that bolsters my argument and then, somehow, you reverse it to mean that the opposite of what you say is relevant.

I will type r..e..a..l s..l..o..w.... I do think business is apolitical and amoral. Business owes its alegiance to the bottom line, not the nation. That is what I have been trying to say. It's gotta be satire. I am a fool.

I know you are, but what am I?

 

[neoncowboy]

OK, I quit. You win. The sun will go cold, the universe will expand into entropic decay. Nothing matters anyway.

Have a nice day!

lol.

OK, maybe that went a little too far. I'm not really that fatalistic, I'm just trying to make sense of a complicated world.

I guess I just don't see how one sovereign nation can legitimately claim to have the moral authority to take sides in another sovereign nations conflicts. We make plenty of enemies doing that and anyone we ever take sides with is going to be 'the bad guy' to some degree or another.

Case in point: in WWII we sided with Russia to defeat the Nazis. Great, where did that leave us? We sided with the Chinese to defeat the Japs, where did that leave us? Net gain in either case? Zero. Cost? Incredible.

We can't depose all of the evil in the world, there's simply too much of it. Anymore, our own morality is so decayed that it's sort of a joke for America to come rushing to anybody's aid as the 'enforcer of morality' and all that.

I guess I just don't see what would be so bad about withdrawing a little bit, or maybe quite a lot, and letting the people of the world sort out their own conflicts for awhile.

 

[RealGun]

No, I'm saying that our foreign policy of support for Israel has been primarily the reason why we have so many enemies in the middle east.

I would think that a little more indifference toward Israel would be a good thing. It's not as if Israel needs our arms...they can get plenty of arms both internally and from the Russians. They don't need our money, there's plenty of money in the world earmarked for Israel. They don't need our military, for it's size, the Israeli army is the most dengerous in the world!

I would think Israel, if ever freed of all the strings attached to the foreign aid/arms support it receives from the US, would finally be able to take the gloves off the kick the crap out of her enemies that surround her.

The US state dept. demanding restraint from Israel is not really doing anything good for the Israeli people. Don't you think?

I'd love more than anything to see Israel level the Iranian nuclear facilities, sieze the temple mount, kill that psycopath the Iranians have as a leader and draw a line in the sand, daring the Syrians, Lebanese or anyone else to make a move.

That's a fight between Israel and her enemies though. I don't think it really has anything to do with the US.

Israel is under agreement not to use US military equipment for offensive purposes. Preemptive wars would be highly controversial. Restraint is always expected. They violated that in Lebanon. Whatever they do should probably include consulting with US policy officials. Based upon this agreement, they get higher tech stuff than most countries do. That may be most apparent in the electronic capabilities of their fighter planes and in the missile technology.