Is .308 win a military caliber?

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shadow9

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It sounds like a stupid question, since most of us rightfully associate .308 Win with 7.62x51mm. However, as we also know, they are also two DIFFERENT calibers.
My question comes from the perspective of a military-caliber banning country (France comes to mind, amongst others).

While it is a chambering in our sniper rifles, the .308 Win was a Civilian cartridge, released by Winchester a couple of years before the NATO T65 (7.62x51mm). To my understanding, the sniper rifles we use in the Military are designed for 7.62x51mm, while .308 remains in the "civilian" category.

Am I missing something?
 
Well, first off, your timeline is incorrect. Winchester developed the .308 using the military 7.62x51 development info. The 7.62x51 and .308 are the same round. It's just like your mother is also your father's wife, and your grandmother's daughter. If you don't believe that you are stuck in a tiny internet minority.
 
It's just like your mother is also your father's wife, and your grandmother's daughter
Click to expand...

Not necessarily true. Case in point, child adopted or parent remarried.

Jim

But the 308 and 7.62 NATO are the same.
 
Whether it is a 'military caliber' or not is up to the government that is writing the laws. But as has been said, .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO are the same round.
 
Not to (essentially) dispute the above but I notice a slight difference in the performance ballistics when I buy 7.61x51 and .308 of the same maker and bullet type.

Having said that, yeah, really, they're the same. The difference is TINY.
 
If you reload, you will find that you use the same dies for 308 Win as you would for 7.62x51. You also use the same case gauges. Same bullets.

There is (sometimes) a marginal difference in brass case thickness and weight. This may slightly affect internal volume, but it is a small effect.

To me if you use the same cases, dies, gauges, and bullets, its the same round.
 
shadow9 said:
It sounds like a stupid question, since most of us rightfully associate .308 Win with 7.62x51mm. However, as we also know, they are also two DIFFERENT calibers.
Click to expand...

Not to pick nits but 308 Winchester and 7.62x51 are the calibers. 30-06 is the same caliber as 308 Winchester et al.

Whether 308 Winchester and 7.62x51 are the same cartridge or not is a different question. In this case, they are essentially the same.
 
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NOT fanning the flames here but I've been told that the 7.62x51 and .308 Win have the same sort of relationship as 5.56x45 and .223 Rem - that is, very similar but not close enough to shoot either out of any gun chambered for either. (Yes, I know you can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 gun but not vice versa).

I really am curious - is that true of the .308/7.62, or not? Someone mentioned a "tiny internet minority" but I've had several people tell me they're different enough you have to be careful. I don't yet own a gun chambered for either round but hope to at some point.

Thanks!
 
When will this stuff die?

PLEASE, just do yourselves all a favor and go Google the chamber pressure tests. 308 / 223, they both have been tested accross platforms with strain gauges and chronographs. Stop spreading rumors and go look up the empirical data.

SAAMI doesnt tell the army or NATO what their chamber pressure specs are going to be, because NATO is make up of a lot of countries that dont use it as a standardization source. They determine their own ammo stats.
 
Rittmeister said:
NOT fanning the flames here but I've been told that the 7.62x51 and .308 Win have the same sort of relationship as 5.56x45 and .223 Rem - that is, very similar but not close enough to shoot either out of any gun chambered for either. (Yes, I know you can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 gun but not vice versa).

I really am curious - is that true of the .308/7.62, or not? Someone mentioned a "tiny internet minority" but I've had several people tell me they're different enough you have to be careful. I don't yet own a gun chambered for either round but hope to at some point.

Thanks!
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They are not like .223/5.56. 7.62x51 and .308 Win are completely interchangeable. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed.
 
Same caliber for all legal purposes. AFAIK every ban on 7.62 includes 308 WIN. In most parts of the world only metric designations are used anyway.

If there is a modern rifle that will shoot one but not the other, I am not familiar with it.
 
"However, as we also know, they are also two DIFFERENT calibers"


^^^ Basic fallacy in reasoning, but let's start with a minor correction:


They are the same *caliber* (.308, as is used by every modern .30 caliber bullet).

I believe you intended to say that "we also know that they are different cartridges"


So, interchanging the correct nomenclature "cartridge" for your incorrect nomenclature of "caliber"


We know nothing of the sort. Your argument begins with a false statement.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

We do know that there are two specifications published for the same cartridge, one for formal acceptance by NATO forces when purchasing ammunition, and another for the use of civil producers of the cartridge for commercial sales. When a cartridge meets the formal specifications for one, it also informally meets the specifications of the other.

They are functionally identical.



Trivia: What is a NATO 7.62x63 cartridge?


Willie




.
 
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There are some differences between 5.56 & .223, but not between .308 & 7.62 x 51.
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5.56 and 7.62X51 are military designations for 223 and 308. So what if they are loaded to different specs. Winchester 223 and Remington 223 are loaded to different specs that will be as great or greater than any 5.56 round.

At worst SOME hotter 5.56 rounds may not function reliably with SOME semi autos. But the same can be said of ANY chambering. SOME 30-06 ammo will not function reliably in SOME semi autos.

Same cartridges, different names.
 
The ammunition is functionally the same. It's the rifles that may be different; 7.62x51 NATO has looser chamber specs than .308 Winchester, and using thinner walled .308 Win brass in a loose chambered 7.62 rifle might cause a case rupture during firing.
 
They are not like .223/5.56. 7.62x51 and .308 Win are completely interchangeable. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed.
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Somebody ought to have told the Savage rifle I used to have that. All the commercial .308 Winchester I tried worked perfectly. Yet the surplus 762 NATO I used required hammering the bolt open.

Maybe this was the reason:

(from http://carnival.saysuncle.com/002453.html)
7.62x51mm NATO Go 1.6355"
.308 Winchester Go 1.630"

7.62x51mm NATO Field Reject 1.6455"
.308 Winchester Field Reject 1.638"

It's perfectly possible my 762 NATO surplus was in spec (for 752 NATO ammunition) yet was too long for my .308 Win. chambered rifle.

BSW
 
There's a difference, all right. My MAS-49/56 (as rechambered by the usual drunk monkeys) runs fine on 7.62 NATO, with its thicker brass and milder pressure. The same gun starts tearing the heads off of the .308 rounds after about four fast shots.

Sure, there isn't a lot of difference. Just enough to matter in certain situations.
 
Maybe this was the reason:

(from http://carnival.saysuncle.com/002453.html)
7.62x51mm NATO Go 1.6355"
.308 Winchester Go 1.630"

7.62x51mm NATO Field Reject 1.6455"
.308 Winchester Field Reject 1.638"
Click to expand...

Those are chamber dimensions, not cartridge dimensions. The cartridges are essentially the same size. Your Savage's headspace dimensions are adjustable via the "barrel nut", so perhaps your rifle's headspace is set a bit tight.

Don
 
Gee, that session was pretty civilized. What happened to the usual ranters who start screaming that firing .308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO (or vice versa) will blow up rifles by the thousands and destroy civilization as we know it?

Jim
 
"My question comes from the perspective of a military-caliber banning country..."

Rest assured, dearly beloved, that you'll stay out of jail if you regard the .308 Winchester as a military cartridge. Take it for granted that the folks with the badges will do so. :)
 
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