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Is a roller delayed blowback AR possible?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Cap'n Jack Burntbeard, Aug 25, 2009.

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  1. HKrazy

    HKrazy Member

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    If so, then how come AR and M14/M1A clones work reliably and HK clones don't. It is because they have to be built to much higher tolerances and are more difficult to make. Period. Fluting a barrel properly is very difficult. I have had experienced machinist/gunsmith friends try it with poor results.

    The PTR91 is no HK91/G3. Don't believe me, go to the clone section of HKPro.com and it is full of people with PTR problems.

    The G3 is one of the most controllable full auto 7.62 guns available. I've put thousands of rounds on target. Try that with a M14.

    There is a big difference between actual recoil and perceived recoil. Anyone who thinks that a bolt action gun has less recoil than any autoloader of the same caliber is ignoring the laws of physics.

    A HK91/G3 recoil can also be reduced by installing a MSG90 or HK21 buffer.

    Tell that to my black and blue shoulder after spending an afternoon firing 9MM sub-guns.

    Exactly. I have fired the UMP in 45 and 9MM and they suck. HK wanted to discontinue the MP5 but could not because nobody wanted the UMP. They are truly horrid.

    The key word here is FELT recoil as opposed to a weapons ability to stay on target.

    Facts speak for themselves. Do you really expect anybody to believe all these forces buy weapons based on marketing and inertia, not merit?

    Albania: Albanian Special forces RENEA and the Albanian Police, further procurement for regular armed forces planned.
    Algeria: Algerian Airborne Commando Division.
    Argentina: Used by GEOF, Hawk Special Operations Brigade and Argentine Naval Prefecture
    Australia: Australian Army—2nd Commando Regiment, Special Air Service Regiment, Royal Australian Air Force No. 1 & No. 2 Airfield Defense Squadrons and various Australian Federal and State law enforcement units.
    Austria: Used by the EKO Cobra anti-terrorist
    Azerbaijan: Azerbaijan Interior Guard.
    Bahrain
    Bangladesh: Army, Special Forces, Rapid Action Battalion.
    Bulgaria Bulgaria special forces
    Belgium: Gespecialiseerde Verkenningsploegen (GVP) / Equipes Specialisees de Reconnaissance (ESR), Speciaal Interventie-Eskadron (SIE) / Escadron Special d'Intervention (ESI).
    Brazil: Brazilian Army special forces and several, state police departments and Military Police (BOPE, Polícia Militar do Estado de São Paulo, Polícia Militar do Estado do Rio de Janeiro)
    Cameroon
    Canada: Various police tactical units, RCMP ERTs, Joint Task Force Two (JTF-2), naval boarding parties, Emergency Task Force (ETF Toronto). Ottawa Police Service Tactical Unit.‎‎
    Chile: 1st Battalion Airborne Forces. Unidad Anti-Terroristas (UAT).
    Colombia: Lanceros, Agrupación de Fuerzas Especiales Antiterroristas Urbanas (AFEUR).
    Democratic Republic of the Congo
    Croatia:for the military and police and special police
    Cyprus: Police.
    Czech Republic
    Denmark: Danish police and special forces.
    Egypt
    El Salvador: Used by SWAT
    Finland: Used by the Finnish police, Finnish Border Guard and Finnish Defence Forces. Designated 9.00 KP 2000 (9.00 konepistooli 2000).[4]
    France: Used by the Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale, French Foreign Legion, Commandement des Operations Speciales (COS), Groupement Special Autonome and certain specialized units within the French Army (MP5A5 and MP5SD3 variants).
    Georgia:for the police and special police
    Germany: German State Police, German Federal Police, KSK, Kampfschwimmer, Long Range Reconnaissance Company, Feldjäger (military police), GSG 9. The German Army and German Navy also employ the MP5K.
    Ghana
    Greece: Police and Greek Special Forces Directorate. Weapons are manufactured locally by Hellenic Defence Systems (EAS: Ellinika Amyntika Systimata).[8]
    Honduras
    Hong Kong: Special Duties Unit, Police Tactical Unit, Airport Security Unit, VIP Protection Unit.
    Hungary: Used by the Hungarian Police, Hungarian Prison Service and Hungarian Ground Forces.
    Iceland: Icelandic Coast Guard, Icelandic Crisis Response Unit and Special Forces of the National Commissioner.
    India: Indian Army special forces, National Security Guards, MARCOS and other units.
    Indonesia: Indonesian National Armed Forces counter-terrorism unit.
    Iran: Islamic Republic of Iran Army, Iranian police, Takavar. Weapons are manufactured locally by Defense Industries Organization.
    Ireland: Sciathan Fianoglach an Airm (Irish Army Rangers).
    Italy: All Italian special forces. Mostly encountered within GIS, NOCS and COMSUBIN. Recently, some Police units like the Cacciatori di Sardegna (a unit within the Carabinieri specialized in chasing and apprehending fugitives in wildlife environments like mountains or forests), and the Polizia di Stato Airport Security detachment of the Leonardo da Vinci-Fiumicino Airport (Rome) have replaced the standard Beretta M12 with MP5-A5 submachineguns equipped with EOTech holographic sights.
    Jamaica: Jamaica Constabulary Force (JCF).
    Japan: Japanese Special Operations Group and Special Assault Team
    Jordan: SOU-17.
    Kenya: Kenya Police.
    Kuwait: Kuwait Army.
    Latvia: Speciālo Uzdevumu Vienība , OMEGA (special forces) and military police.
    Lebanon: Navy SEALs Regiment
    Lithuania: Special forces group "SOJ", Police fast reaction team ARAS, police units
    Luxembourg
    Macao: Unidade Táctica de Intervenção da Polícia , Grupo de Operações Especiais , Grupo de Protecção de Altas Entidades e Instalações Importantes.
    Macedonia: Macedonian Special Forces.
    Malaysia: Malaysian Armed Forces, various special forces units and law enforcement agencies.
    Malta
    Mauritius
    Mexico: The Mexican Army - GAFE and Infantry Officers, law enforcement agencies such as state, federal and military police. Licence produced by SEDENA.
    Montenegro: Vojska Crne Gore (VCG).
    Morocco: Royal Moroccan Armed Forces, G.S.I.G.R., National Police Force, Gendarmerie Royale.
    Netherlands: Netherlands Marine Corps, Royal Marechaussee military police, DSI counter-terrorism unit and several other police formations.
    New Zealand: 1st Special Air Service Squadron.
    Niger
    Nigeria
    Norway: Norwegian Defence Force (The MP7 is set to replace the MP5), Beredskapstroppen and Norwegian Police.
    Pakistan: Pakistan Army standard weapon for close range engagements, built by Pakistan Ordnance Factories under license from HK.
    Spanish Navy special forces (UOE) operators armed with MP5s.
    A USMC Military Police Special Reaction Team using the MP5N.
    Panama GAP Grupo de Acción Policial (Group of Police Action) . Policía Nacional (National police) y Servicio de Protección Institucional SPI (Service of Institutional Protection)
    Peru
    Philippines: Armed Forces of the Philippines, and Philippine National Police Special Action Force and other police and SWAT units.
    Poland: GROM, police special units.
    Portugal: Various military units, including the Portuguese Army Special Operations and the Portuguese Marine Corps Special Actions Detachment (DAE). Also used by law enforcement agencies Polícia de Segurança Pública, including the Special Operations Group (GOE), and the Portuguese National Republican Guard (GNR), Policia do Exército (PE).
    Qatar
    Romania: SRI (Serviciul Român de Informaţii) counter-terrorism unit and certain police units.
    Russia[citation needed]
    Saudi Arabia: Special Forces Brigade.
    Serbia: SAJ, UBPOK, Serbian Military Police and several other police and military formations.
    Singapore: Singapore Armed Forces Commandos, Singapore Police Force.
    Slovakia: Slovak police and special forces.
    Slovenia: Police and special forces.
    South Africa: Various services.
    South Korea: ROKA 707th Special Missions Battalion, ROKN Naval Special Warfare Brigade (UDT/SEAL), KNP Special Weapons Attack Team (SWAT), ROKCG Sea Special Assault Team (SSAT).
    Spain: Various units, including the UOE and the Tercio de Extranjeros y de Moreria. Also GOE (Grupo de Operaciones Especiales), GOES (Grupo Operativo Especial de Seguridad), GEO (Grupo Especial de Operaciones), GEI (Grup Especial d'Intervenció (from Catalonia) and SVA (Customs Service).
    Sri Lanka: Sri Lanka Army Commando Regiment, Special Task Force.
    Sudan: Manufactured under a license agreement by Military Industry Corporation as the Tihraga.
    Switzerland: FSK-17, Army Reconnaissance Detachment and several Swiss police departments (including SWAT- Teams)[13]
    Sweden: National Taskforce (NI), and Piketen, Swedish Police.
    Taiwan: Republic of China Army and Republic of China Military Police, Republic of China Marine Corps Frogmen, Republic of China Coast Guard and various Police SWAT and special forces.
    Thailand: Used by the Royal Thai Police.
    Turkey: Various services. Built under license from HK by MKEK.
    United Arab Emirates: UAE Special Forces, Abu Dhabi Police SWAT, Dubai Police SWAT, UAE VIP Protection Team.
    United Kingdom: UKSF, Metropolitan Police Specialist Firearms Command, Firearms units of police forces, Royal Ulster Constabulary, Police Service of Northern Ireland, Special Air Service.
    United States: The MP5N is not standardized but in limited use with some special operations forces. Also used by many law enforcement departments and federal agencies.
    Uruguay
    Venezuela
    Vietnam: Battalion special police.
    British Virgin Islands: Maritime Patrol officers as well as armored car guards use the MP5K.

    My knowledge on this subject comes from firing tens of thousands of rounds through hundreds of different machine guns.

    The fact is roller locked weapons are as good if not better than almost anything out there. However they are expensive and difficult to produce properly. So, gun manufactures have stayed or moved away from the design for financial not technical reasons.

    The G36 and the HK416 are much less expensive than roller lock designs and work well.
     
  2. Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey member

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    That's it right there. Why bother with something that is more difficult to engineer and manufacture when there's another design that's just as good, if not better, but much easier to engineer/manufacture?

    Same reason why we don't see milled steel receivers anymore.
     
  3. Cap'n Jack Burntbeard

    Cap'n Jack Burntbeard Member

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    >HKrazy
    As your name suggests, you seem to appreciate this unique action as much as i do.

    All I am asking is that this great design be brought into the 21st century with a modern two piece upper-lower design like the XCR did for the long stroke gas piston Kalashnikov style action.
    The specs would be as follows:
    1 H&K style roller delayed blowback action.
    2 the lower must contain the magwell, the trigger group, grip, and buttstock.
    3 the upper must be a milled alloy flattop.
    4 the barrel must be easily free-floated.
    5 if it is chambered in 5.56x45 it MUST accept stanag magazines.
    6 if it is chambered in 7.62x51 it should use a common, readily available, non proprietary magazine.
    7 a last round bolt hold open would be nice but not necessary.
    8 it must use a drop in trigger group.
    9 the charging handle must be non reciprocating and on the side of the rifle.
    10 a built in port buffer would be a good idea.
    11 it must be easily field stripped by hand.

    That pretty much sums up the requirements for a modern roller delayed blowback rifle.

    Sadly it would probably sell for $3,000 or more
     
  4. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    HKrazy, it doesn't sound like I or anyone else will be able to reason with you. I think PTR-91 and JL Denter would be quite surprised at your claim that their product is less reliable than the original HK, especially when all reviews I've seen, not to mention my personal ownership experience, indicate that the PTR is better made than a real HK. As for actual vs. perceived and felt recoil, my cheek and shoulder each perceived bruises from firing a PTR91, while they didn't perceive bruises from firing the exact same ammo (out of the same box!) from the M1A that replaced it.

    As far as machining, any shop that can make a functioning AR-15 can probably make two G3's in the same amount of time.

    Where exactly have you fired 1000's of rounds full-auto through a G3? I'm not aware of any military using the G3 in full auto mode to any extent. Do you personally own an NFA item marked "HK"? Could having sunk 5 figures into such a collectible have colored your opinions?
     
  5. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    That doesn't sound very much like an AR anymore...

    BSW
     
  6. mp5a3

    mp5a3 Member

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    AS far as the reliability of the MP5.. Per Frank James MP5 book "project 64"


    NASA owned a MP5 that shot over 571,000 rounds before being decommisioned. The MP5 SN 316019 went in service August of 1984 and come out October of 1992.

    Parts that were replaced because of wear.

    five roller holders
    five firing pins springs
    four extractors
    four extractor springs
    three firing pins
    two set of oversized locking rollers
    one roller holder pin
    one recoil spring assembly
    one mag release spring

    As far as the barrel goes

    "It had trouble hitting an IPSC target at 10 feet with full-auto. It says the lands and grooves were still visible, but didn't give any diameter measurements"
     
  7. Wes Janson

    Wes Janson Member

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    No one flutes chambers anymore, because it's a half-assed workaround for excessive chamber pressures upon unlocking. Just like no one builds beltfeds that require the ammo to be oiled before chambering-it's a sign of an improperly balanced action. Being the most skilled carriage maker in the world does not help you win the Indy 500.

    If that's so, then why is it that owners across the world widely report that the AR and M14 platforms recoil less than the roller-locked HK? It's as if you're claiming that .38 Special has more recoil than .357 Magnum, to the contrary of the experience of every shooter out there.

    Well, we know for a fact they don't buy them because of HK's stellar customer service and support.

    Anyone who's worked in the firearms industry selling weapons will tell you that the primary factor driving sales of a given firearm is public perception. If the public thinks that something is cool, powerful, exotic, or all of the above, then they'll go nuts trying to buy one. This works just the same for military, law enforcement, and government officials. The truth is, very few buyers have significant experience across a variety of platforms and offerings, and thus there's a widespread lack of product diversity in use (which is only accentuated by the snowball effects of the secondary markets).

    Fact is, the West's subgun market post-WWII never really had a great deal of choices, usually between bad and worse. HK released a workable, decent design, and then they marketed the hell out of it and their brand. And in the absence of strong opposition, it worked.

    From the industry's point of view, you can only look at HK and facepalm over an endless number of technical or business-related issues. From the market's point of view, HK = Badass, ergo HK is the brand to buy if you've got the finances for it. In the intervening years since the MP5 was released, there's been quite a bit of innovation, despite the massive damper on development from the Hughes Amendment. The MP5 and its operating system are fundamentally obsolete, and have been for years.
     
  8. mgregg85

    mgregg85 Member

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    Interesting idea, but why? What are you hoping to accomplish with a roller AR?
     
  9. HKrazy

    HKrazy Member

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    Are you serious?

    Reason requires facts.

    Here are seven threads from the last two weeks alone where people have reported major problems on HKPro with their PTR91s:

    What gunsmith to get a PTR91 to run?:
    http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110100

    any one with a PTR not have it Jam UP?:
    http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109862

    PTR's that don't run on mil-surp ammo:
    http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109745

    New PTR problem:
    http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109515

    Post here if your PTR has not been 100%:
    http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109211

    Serious PTR-91 Problem:
    http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109259

    Problems with new PTR:
    http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107846

    The facts speak for themselves.

    If the folks at PTR are surprised by the reliability problems with their guns, then they must live in a cave with no internet.

    As for a PTR91 being better than a genuine HK, I suppose next you'll tell me that a Mustang is as good as Ferrari. They both have little horses on them so they must be the same.

    Not knowing of any militaries that use the G3 in full auto is only a further demonstration of your lack of knowledge on the subject as there are quite a few.

    NATO:

    Canada
    Denmark: G3A5, as the Gevær Model 1966 (Gv M/66). Another variant, designated Gevær Model 1975 (Gv M/75) was leased from the German government. Almost all G3s in Danish service were replaced in the late 1990s by the Diemaco C7 rifle, designated Gv M/95, and the Diemaco C8 carbine, designated Gv M/96. Conscripts are sometimes still taught to operate the rifle, due to shortages of M/95 if the Total Defence force is to be activated. The Danish Home guard issued the Gv M/66 as late as 2006.
    Estonia: Uses Swedish-made Ak 4s.
    France: Formerly made by MAS under contract from Heckler & Koch. Manufactured primarily for export to nations such as Lebanon. No longer produced.
    Germany: Mostly replaced by the Heckler & Koch G36, but still large quantities in storage and sometimes used as DMRs.
    Great Britain
    Greece: Made under license by Ellinika Amyntika Systimata (EAS) (English - "Hellenic Defense Systems"), formerly under Elliniki Biomihania Oplon (EBO) ("Hellenic Arms Industry"). It replaced the American M1 Garand in the late 1970s. It is still the main service rifle of the Hellenic Army G3A3 are issued to soldiers and G3A4 to lower ranking officers. Special forces and drill teams use other rifles.
    Iceland: Used by the Coast Guard (replacing the Lee-Enfield bolt-action rifle) and the Icelandic Crisis Response unit (both the G3A5 and AG-3 variants).
    Italy
    Latvia: Mostly uses Swedish-made Ak 4s and some G3A3 models.
    Lithuania: Uses Swedish-made Ak 4s.
    Norway: AG-3, a modified G3A5 made by Norsk Forsvarsteknologi, later renamed to Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk.
    Netherlands
    Portugal: Made under license by INDEP as the m/961 (G3) and m/963 (G3A3).
    Turkey: Made under license by Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu (MKEK) ("Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation") as the G3A7.
    United Kingdom: Used by UKSF and SAS.
    United States: Used by Navy SEALs and Army Rangers.

    Non-NATO;
    Angola
    Argentina: Used by special operations groups such as the Hawk Special Operations Brigade.
    Azerbaijan
    Bahrain
    Bangladesh: Manufactured by the Bangladesh Ordnance Factory for the armed forces.
    Bhutan
    Bolivia
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Brazil: Used by many special operations groups like BOPE, and also by the Força Aérea Brasileira Infantry.
    Brunei
    Burkina Faso
    Burma
    Burundi
    Cambodia: In limited service by the Khmer Republic during the Cambodian Civil War, since the 1970-75s.
    Chad
    Chile: In use in limited numbers by the artillery troops, reserves and training units.
    Cyprus
    Djibouti
    Dominican Republic
    Ecuador
    El Salvador
    Ethiopia
    Gabon
    Ghana
    Georgia
    Guyana
    Haiti
    Iran: Manufactured locally by Defense Industries Organization in two variants, the fixed stock G3-A4 and a bullpup variant known as the G3-A3.
    Indonesia: Employed by the Indonesian Air Force, special forces (the Korphaskhas) since the early 1960s during the campaign against the Dutch in West Irian. The gun is currently held in reserve and training formations.
    Ivory Coast
    Jordan
    Kenya
    Kuwait
    Lebanon: Used in very limited numbers with the ISF (Internal Security Forces), and in the Lebanese Army.
    Libya
    Malawi
    Malaysia: Both Malaysian Grup Gerak Khas, Paskal, VAT 69 and UTK special forces used the G3SG/1 as their primary sniping rifle since the early 1970s. In 1990 the G3 was replaced by the MSG-90 and PSG-1 as their primary precision rifles.
    Mauritania
    Mexico: Made under license by DIM (Departamento de la Industriá Militar) and DGFD (Dirección General de Fábricas de la Defensa). Used by both the Mexican Army and the Federal Police.
    Morocco
    Myanmar: Known as the Ka Pa Sa BA-63 (G3A3), BA-72 (G3K) and BA-100 (G3A3ZF) built at the Ka Pa Sa state factories.
    Niger
    Nigeria: Under license by Defense Industries Corporation
    Pakistan: Variants in use by the Pakistani military are locally produced by Pakistan Ordnance Factories in Wah Cantt. Manufactured are the G3A3 and a version of the G3A4, which carries the factory designation G3P4.
    Paraguay
    Peru
    Philippines
    Qatar
    Saudi Arabia: Made under license by Al-Kharj Arsenal and issued to all branches of the armed forces.
    Senegal
    Sierra Leone
    Somalia
    Sri Lanka: Purchased a few thousand Pakistani-made G3A3s to fight against Tamil militants in the early 1980s and currently those rifles are being replaced by the Chinese Type 56 assault rifle.
    Sudan: Made under license by Military Industry Corporation as the Dinar.
    Sweden: Made under license by Förenade Fabriksverken (FFV) as the Ak 4 (Automatkarbin 4). Two sub-variants are known to exist, one equipped with a rail and Aimpoint sight (Ak 4B) and the other with a 4x magnifying optic (Ak 4OR). It has since been replaced by the Ak 5 (Automatkarbin 5; a modified version of the FN FNC) in the regular army. It is still in use in Hemvärnet ("Swedish Home Guard").
    Tanzania
    Thailand
    Togo
    Uganda
    United Arab Emirates
    Yemen
    Zaire
    Zambia
    Zimbabwe

    I bough my HK sear long before they were five figures and I doubt the experts who chose the G3 for the militaries just listed even know what NFA means never mind having their opinions colored by it. They bought HK for the same reason I did, because it is the best tool for the job.
     
  10. HKrazy

    HKrazy Member

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    I'm not even going to touch that one because it only shows a total lack of understanding of how a roller locked HK works.

    I don't know who your sources are, but the M14 is considered to be one of the hardest to control full auto 7.62 NATO battle rifles ever.

    THR is probably the best general firearms forum on the internet. However one of it's serious problems is the high level of vocal HK haters who take every opportunity to hate and bash what is clearly one of the best firearm designs of all time. It is to bad that genuine HKs are rare and expensive and many people can't have them but thats no reason to trash talk them. It makes as much sense as going on a car forum and saying Mercedes and BMWs are crap just because you don't own one.

    I don't come on this forum and rag on anyones choice of military weapon. There are many great designs out there and most of them are great guns and all have their weak points and strong points.

    HK are a typical German design. Over engineered, difficult and expensive to manufacture and tricky to work on, just like a Mercedes, a BMW or a German WWII tank. I love over engineering and after shooting many types of machine guns I have defiantly decided that HK is the best for me. If you look at the list of organizations that have adopted the G3 and MP5, you can see I am hardly alone in my conclusion and that hundreds of tactical firearm experts from around the world have decided it is the best tool for the job.

    To keep my skills up I compete in monthly sub-gun matches that are set up by a gentleman who is a retired SWAT training officer from a large northeast state. He sets up fun tactical courses that involve shooting from cover, moving targets, do not hit hostage targets and many other features to keep you on your toes. He now works at one of the most successful gun stores in the United States and has appeared on television as a firearms expert. He is, with out a doubt, a leading authority on firearms and machine guns. He has access to just about any gun you can imagine. Guess what sub-gun he competes with almost every month.... an MP5.

    So, when a bunch of arm chair commandos come on this forum spewing hate and say that HK roller locked guns are outdated junk... Well I guess all I can do is laugh and feel sorry for them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  11. Cap'n Jack Burntbeard

    Cap'n Jack Burntbeard Member

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    Thank you Krazy, the meritless hostility towards the roller-blowback system appears to be the only hurdle in creating such a weapon, that i think would hold its own against modern DI, long, and short gas operated "rotabolts".
     
  12. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    HKrazy, I don't expect to convince you, but I want to note my views for the benefit of future readers, so they don't get a one-sided view that in my opinion is far too favorable to the HK design.

    Lots and lots of countries used the G3, as you proudly keep reposting that list. I note that most of them are very small countries, many of them were "non-aligned" states that perhaps didn't want the FN-FAL (right arm of the free world) or AK (opposite), and many of them use "police" in the entry.

    Anyway, so several dozen countries issued the G3, and perhaps many of them bought the select-fire version. No one trains with the G3 or any other .308 battle rifle (M14, FAL) in full-auto because it isn't controllable on full-auto. The closest .308 to come to being controllable was the original AR-10, which last I checked was adopted only by Sudan (incidentally, Sudan is on your G3 list - so how many did they issue?). The CETME, from which the G3 was derived, was intended for a reduced-power .308 round that was somewhat more controllable on full auto, but not really adopted outside of Spain.

    The most widely used rifle is the AK, by far, followed by the FN-FAL. I'd like to see the same list you post with total #s for each country and #s of other weapons they used contemporaneously.

    I had a PTR, and construction quality was just about flawless. And reliability was literally 100.000% in my useage. I suspect that if I go to a Colt forum I'll "learn" that all non-Colt AR15s are junk, and if I go to a Glock forum I'll find that XDs are junk, etc. etc.

    As for construction quality, all the independent reviews I've read of the PTR mention that it is made as well as or better than an original HK91. I don't own 100 of each to do a comparison, of course, so I'll just have to rely on magazine reviews - magazines that probably get more advertising revenue from HK than from JLD/PTR91.

    Yes, you certainly have defiantly decided! :) As for the German statement, it sounds like a commercial. I think the G3 compares best with the AK-47, with its stamped sheetmetal and trunion construction, lack of a last-shot bolt hold-open, and awkward ergonomics, except that the AK is easier to make and more finely engineered (gas piston and springing is regulated so that the carrier never hits the receiver - buffers are completely superfluous and in some cases harmful due to the design). Manufacturing something in a precise and expensive way is not always the same as good engineering.
     
  13. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    From post #26 by HKrazy

    By Jove, I believe he's got it!
     
  14. Wes Janson

    Wes Janson Member

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    You assert that no one knows how to make a roller-locked rifle. I assert that the very principle itself is inefficient and obsolete. Back up your statement with proof that consists of something more than a list of countries culled from Wikipedia that once, three decades ago, equipped a battalion or two with G3s. Please show me why and how it is so difficult to manufacture a roller-locking rifle, and please explain how it is that difficult to manufacture = better. And then explain just why it's superior to a standard gas piston operating system.

    We're talking about both semi and full-auto fire, and unlike some here, I actually have shot the M14 on rock and roll. It's not nearly as uncontrollable as most of the internet makes it out to be-although anyone shooting 7.62x51 on full auto from a magazine-fed weapon is probably wasting ammo in a military setting. Which is why no one uses said 7.62 rifles in full auto anyhow.

    Hate to burst your bubble, but I've shot or handled far more HKs than most people ever have, including a few pieces that are virtually nonexistent, and my opinion of them is backed up by more than a fair amount of first-hand experience. From the asinine over-engineering of the 416 all the way back to the CETME, they've always had the tendency to do things their way-even when it's demonstrably inferior from a design perspective.

    Thousands of organizations around the world have adopted the Kalashnikov as their weapon of choice-far, far more than have ever issued the MP5 or CETME/G3 clones. If your argument is based solely on numbers, then wouldn't you have to admit that the AK is a superior design?

    I don't look to third-world countries to see what the best-made aircraft or automobile is, and I certainly don't look to them to tell me what the best battle rifle from 1960 was.

    The MP5 is a decent weapon, but from everything I've seen it's outclassed by many more modern designs. Hell, a dressed-up Mac will outshoot one in competition, given the same level of shooter skill. There are competitors who can pick up a pump-action Mossberg, a Hi-Point, and an SKS, and still win their local 3-gun competition..but that doesn't mean that any of those designs are ideal or even particularly decent, it just means that they're being used by an exceptional shooter. I typically shoot competitions with whatever I happen to feel like that day (so long as it isn't an AR), just for the sake of trying something different.

    Who here sounds the most like an "arm chair commando", rabidly defending his chosen namesake?

    Bingo. Making something that uses more parts, costs more to make, and works less efficiently, all for the sake of a more "elegant" engineering solution, isn't any solution at all.
     
  15. nalioth

    nalioth Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    This myth keeps popping up.

    Allow me to dispel it:

    The Cetme Model "C" is designed for 7.62x51 NATO. The model "A" and "B" were produced in experimental numbers for use with the "reduced power ammo", but the program didn't pan out.

    The model "C" Cetme is what the world has been seeing since the '60s, and is virtually identical to the G3 (both the G3 and the Cetme "C" originated with the Model "B" Cetme)
     
  16. HKrazy

    HKrazy Member

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    Location:
    USA
    The proof is in all the crappy HK clones out there versus the originals that work like clockwork. On the other hand it is you you have offered no proof whosoever that the design is inefficient and obsolete.

    I don't claim to be a spectacular shooter but I can dump a 20 round mag in a G3 in FA while holding it on target. It took some practice but it's not difficult. Where is the proof that no one uses 7.62 in full auto. If a truck full of explosives was bearing down on a soldier with a 7.62 rifle, he wouldn't use semi.

    The M14s reputation is well know and well deserved. It is based on the Garand and was never meant to be a FA gun in the first place. I have fired them in rock and roll also and they are less controllable than a G3, FAL, AR10, Valmet or an AK. The reason armies switched to 5.56 was to carry more ammo, not because there was no such thing as a controllable full auto 7.62.

    Talk about unsubstantiated opinion. You just took the prize.

    Most countries that adopted the AK-47 did not do it by free choice so your point is moot. Nothing wrong with a good AK though.

    I also agree in any competition its the shooter not the gun that matters most.

    Again, you are showing more of your unfounded bias. What's wrong with ARs?

    If you really think that then you are seriously disconnected from reality. Macs have always been one step above junk and the price they fetch is proof of that.

    Unlike you I am not claiming to have all the answers and have tried to use references to back up what I am saying. You are all opinion and no facts. Just believe me, I know what I'm talking about is all you are saying. That is all most people who are disagreeing with me are saying.

    If you took offense to the arm chair commando comment then I must have struck a nerve and if the shoe fits wear it.

    Go ahead, prove roller locked rifles are inefficient and obsolete.

    I'm done running rings around your logic for tonight. Good Night.
     
  17. starkadder

    starkadder Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    111
    So.... here we go again, Ford v/s Chevy. Is there no end to the ridiculous point-counter point, mine is better than yours mentality?
    Do any of you really think that a developed country is going to equip thier military with a disfunctional, inferior, or as some would put it "crap" battle rifle? (well... other than the French)
    The HK (C.E.T.M.E.) roller system was a very ingeniuous design that removed from the equation several moving parts and points of failure most gas operated designs have in common, the system is very strong, very accruate, and extremly reliable, that is fact!
    I own three HK's, G3, HK93, MP5, and also a CETME and they are all superb weapons.
    I own four AR's; Colt CAR-15, Colt AR-15A2, Armalite AR-10, and a M4orgery that I built myself, they are all superb weapons.
    I own four AK's; Yugo M63, WASR 10, Valmet RPK, and a Bulgarian AK74, they are all superb weapons.
    And for good measure I will list the STG58 built on an Imbel receiver and the S.A. M1A1, they are also both superb weapons.
    Some of you will call me a liar or cringe at my weapons-care routine but I shoot my weapons, often, as often as range time and ammunition funds allow it and I do not do a detail strip and cleaning every time I do. These are for the most part Mil-Spec weapons and I treat them as such, if I have to clean it every time I run a few mags through it I don't want it, and I can tell you that all of them do what they were designed to do, every time.:D
    My point is they are all tools of war, nothing else, when you are in the military of what ever country you happen to live you get whats issued and you are trained to use it and you learn to adapt to weight, sights, ergonimics, and limitations.
    In a present day combat situation I would not feel in any way inadequate with any of these weapons, I do think that there are some scenerios where some of these would not be my first choice ie; house clearing with an M-14, but if my targets were in open country @ 600yds it would be, THERE IS NO PERFECT WEAPON so give it a rest already.:banghead::banghead::banghead:


    This is this! It's not something else, it's this!

    Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

    ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.
     
  18. Cap'n Jack Burntbeard

    Cap'n Jack Burntbeard Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    215
    Location:
    Fairfax VT
    +1 starkadder
    Are you picking on the FAMAS?
    I like the roller delayed blowback for its simplicity of operation and secondly it does not impart any asymmetrical or rotational force on the receiver, which helps accuracy.
    As I've stated before, I just want to see this legendary action given a proper home in a modern battle rifle receiver.

    I own a CETME, the recoil is strong but not sharp, which makes it very controllable, it actually feels softer than my Krebs KTR-08s Saiga AK.
    If one cannot handle the recoil on a CETME, one is holding the rifle wrong, especially that guy who said it bruised him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
  19. mp5a3

    mp5a3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    366
    Let me repeat..

    AS far as the reliability of the MP5.. Per Frank James MP5 book "project 64"


    NASA owned a MP5 that shot over 571,000 rounds before being decommisioned. The MP5 SN 316019 went in service August of 1984 and come out October of 1992.

    Parts that were replaced because of wear.

    five roller holders
    five firing pins springs
    four extractors
    four extractor springs
    three firing pins
    two set of oversized locking rollers
    one roller holder pin
    one recoil spring assembly
    one mag release spring

    As far as the barrel goes

    "It had trouble hitting an IPSC target at 10 feet with full-auto. It says the lands and grooves were still visible, but didn't give any diameter measurements"
     
  20. HKrazy

    HKrazy Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    101
    Location:
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    starkadder, I agree with you 100%. Except this really isn't a Ford vs Chevy discussion here. If you look at this thread, I have not seen anyone call any other battle rifle crap. I have only objected because people have called roller lock rifles crap, when they clearly aren't.

    There have been a few design blunders over the years, the Chauchat and original SA80 come to mind, but almost all of the battle rifles that have been fielded in quantity are decent weapons deserving of respect in their own right.

    I also shoot most of them, often in full auto. If someone came on this forum and said ARs, AKs or FALs are inefficient and obsolete crap, I would vigorously disagree with them also.
     
  21. Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,486
    So the moral to the story is......

    .......delayed blowback weapons do not offer anything more than conventional operating systems other than increased production cost.
     
  22. starkadder

    starkadder Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    111
    Not in particular, the French have fielded many fine weapons used by soldiers all over the world because that was all that was availible to them;:neener:
    Chauchat
    1935-A
    MAS-35
    MAS-36
    MAS-49
    And on the collectors side other than the venerable Lebel and Manlicher Berthier, they are usualy in great shape,(never fired and only dropped once):evil:

    HKrazy, I am on your side here. I love the roller lock system, it is genious in it's simplicity albeit more difficult to manufacture than some other modern systems. The finer points are:
    No gas system to foul or break.
    Comparibly few moving parts to wear or break.
    Head space can be checked and adjusted with mechanic's tools.
    Inhierently improved accuacy because of lack of torque in the action.
    Lighter recoil in all calibers compared to other designs.(yes it's true)

    After several trips to the range and several thousand rounds my 93 has replaced my AR as my light caliber go-to weapon, I absolutly love it, but when all else fails and the zombies come the G3 will be in my hand.:)


    This is this! It's not something else, it's this!

    Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

    ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.
     
  23. HKrazy

    HKrazy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    USA
    Back to the original point of this post, I agree that a piston operated roller locked rifle would be an interesting concept that might be worth pursuing.

    As I stated earlier, the Germans tried such a design at the end of WWII, but decided the piston was redundant because you could use the spent case as the gas piston with the advantage of less parts. This concept was continued with both HK and CETME designs. However, just like Eugene Stoners direct impingement AR, the bolt and locking area get dirty. The current trend of gas piston ARs is designed to alleviate the eventual stoppage of the AR due to powder residue and keep the bolt cooler to prevent cook off discharges.

    While stoppages due to fouling and cook offs have been less of a problem with roller locked guns than ARs, it still might offer some advantages if the locking piece was driven by a separate piston.

    The biggest problem with a separate piston is increase in reciprocating mass and the bending effect on the barrel. If you have ever seen a slow motion video of a AK on full auto you can see that the piston moves the barrel all over the place.

    Modern piston driven designs uses small, light weight pistons and op-rods with a short impulse to address this problem.

    As Cap'n Jack Burntbeard pointed out, one of the real advantages of roller lock design is it's lack of asymmetrical or rotational force on the receiver.

    You could make a symmetrical piston but it would have high reciprocating weight unless you could made it mostly from carbon fiber or some other high tech material.

    So, you would loose the symmetrical advantage by using a piston, but still have no rotational force. Of course the SKS, FAL and VZ58 also have no rotational force so you might just be re-inventing the wheel. Both Stoner with the AR and HK with the G36 did keep rotational mass to a minimum because the lack of twisting motion does improve follow up shot and full auto controllability.

    The M14 and to a lesser extent the AK are rifles that have a little to much rotating mass for their own good.

    The question is, with the small rotational mass in a AR, would there be a noticeable advantage by getting rid of it.

    If I had Bill Gates money I would build a machine shop with all kinds of manufacturing and test equipment. Then I would happily spend the rest of my life testing all these concepts out and seeing if I could build a better rifle.

    If the money comes through, I post a notice here on THR that I'm accepting resumes.
     
  24. jackdanson

    jackdanson Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Messages:
    859
    Ignoring all the HK back and forths. (geez they can't even load a magazine right!) I don't know the purpose of have a roller delayed blowback AR. It seems like a fix for a problem that doesn't exist.
     
  25. Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,486

    So much misinformation. This is why people on other boards think The High Road is a joke of a forum.
     
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