Is banning handguns a "reasonable regulation"?

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Desertdog

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Is banning handguns a "reasonable regulation"? The District of Columbia certainly hopes that the Supreme Court thinks so.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296724,00.html


D.C. filed a brief last week asking the U.S. Supreme Court to let it keep its 1976 handgun ban, but how the city argued its case was what was most surprising. Instead of spending a lot of time arguing over what the constitution means, the city largely made a public policy argument. D.C. argues that whatever one thinks about the Second Amendment guaranteeing people a right to own guns, banning handguns should be allowed for public safety reasons.

Claiming that the Second Amendment doesn't protect individual rights might be a tough sell, but the city's public safety argument will be at least as tough. After the ban, D.C.'s murder rate only once fell below what it was in 1976. From 1977 to 2003, there were only two years when D.C.'s violent crime rate fell below the rate in 1976. After the ban, DC’s murder and violent rates rose relative to Maryland and Virginia as well as relative to other cities with more than 500,000 people.

But it is not just D.C. that has experienced increases in murder and violent crime after guns are banned. Chicago also experienced an increase after its ban in 1982. Island nations supposedly present ideal environments for gun control because it is relatively easy for them to control their borders, but countries such as Great Britain, Ireland, and Jamaica have experienced large increases in murder and violent crime after gun bans. For example, after handguns were banned in 1997, the number of deaths and injuries from gun crime in England and Wales increased 340 percent in the seven years from 1998 to 2005.

Passing a gun ban simply doesn't mean that we are going to get guns away from criminals. The real problem is that if it is the law-abiding good citizens who obey these laws and not the criminals, criminals have less to fear and crime can go up.

D.C.’s brief makes a number of other claims:

The ban comes "nowhere close to disarmament of residents. The District's overwhelming interest in reducing death and injury caused by handguns outweighs respondent's asserted need . . . ." The obvious key here is that DC says people can use rifles and shotguns for self-defense. D.C. also adds that they don't believe that the regulations that lock up and require the disassembling of guns does not "prevent the use of a lawful firearm in self-defense."

But locked guns are simply not as readily accessible for defensive gun uses. In the U.S., states that require guns be locked up and unloaded face a 5 percent increase in murder and a 12 percent increase in rapes. Criminals are more likely to attack people in their homes and those attacks are more likely to be successful.

Since potentially armed victims deter criminals, storing a gun locked and unloaded actually encourages increased crime.

— "All too often, handguns in the heat of anger turn domestic violence into murder."

To put it bluntly, criminals are not your typical citizens. Few people should be fearful of those who they are in relationshipswith. Almost 90 percent of adult murders already have a criminal record as an adult. As is well known, young males from their mid-teens to mid-thirties commit more than their share of crime, but even this is categorization can be substantially narrowed. We know that criminals tend to have low IQ’s as well as atypical personalities. For example, delinquents generally tended to be more “assertive, unafraid, aggressive, unconventional, extroverted, and poorly socialized,” while non-delinquents are “self-controlled, concerned about their relations with others, willing to be guided by social standards, and rich in internal feelings like insecurity, helplessness, love (or its lack), and anxiety.” Other evidence indicates that criminals tend to be more impulsive and put relatively little weight on future events. Finally, we cannot ignore the unfortunate fact that crime (particularly violent crime even more so murder) is disproportionately committed against blacks and by blacks.

— "handguns cause accidents, frequently involving children. The smaller the weapon, the more likely a child can use it, and children as young as three years old are strong enough to fire today's handguns."

Accidental gun deaths among children are, fortunately, much rarer than most people believe. With 40 million children in the United States under the age of 10, the Centers for Disease Control indicates that there were just 20 accidental gun deaths in 2003. 56 children under the age of 15. While guns get most of the attention, children are 41 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation, 32 times more likely to accidentally drown and 20 times more likely to die as a result of accidental fires. Looking at all children under 15, there were 56 accidental gun deaths in 2003— still a fraction of the deaths resulting from these other accidents for only the younger children.

Despite the image of children firing these guns and killing themselves or other children, the typical person who accidentally fires a gun is an adult male, usually in his 20s. Accidental shooters overwhelmingly have problems with alcoholism and long criminal histories, particularly arrests for violent acts. They are also disproportionately involved in automobile crashes and are much more likely to have had their driver's licenses suspended or revoked. Even if gun locks could stop children from using guns, gun locks are simply not designed to stop adult males from firing their own guns — even if they were to use the gun locks.

Of course, D.C. makes other claims as well, but the city’s crime problems and the fact that they began after the gun ban are hardly a secret. After the ban, D.C. regularly ranked number one in murder rates for cities over 500,000 people. That wasn’t even close to being true before the ban. The fact that D.C. must argue that the gun ban reduced the murder rate shows how incredibly weak the city's case really is.

*John Lott is the author of the book "Freedomnomics," and is a Senior Research Scientist at the University of Maryland.
 
In order for that "reasoning" to make sense, you'd have to believe that the 1st Amendment permits the banning of Judaism, so long as people are allowed to be Catholics or Zoroastrians instead.
 
If we compare it to driving:
Mandatory seatbelt use is a reasonable restriction.
Speed limits are a reasonable restriction.
Banning cars is not a reasonable restriction.

Deanimator makes a good analogy with the 1st amendment.
 
Reasonable is by definition subject to opinion. What is reasonable to one isn't reasonable to another. Besides, the second amendment doesn't say anything about reasonable regulation, it says shall not infringe.

Deanimator makes a good analogy with the 1st amendment.
Is it reasonable to prohibit freedom of speech before an election? Some people think so.
 
Of course, we have no idea what the standard will be for evaluation of a law under the Second. The bare bones EP analysis requires that a law has some rational basis, but almost all laws pass this muster even if they are absurd. Presumably if the Second is deemed to protect an individual right, the government will need to pass a higher level of scrutiny. The court is likely to create some form of balancing test to weigh the public safety allegedly being protected by the law against the individual right being restricted. It's an unfought battle at this point. This is not going to be an open policy debate. The courts are very reluctant to second guess a government's policy choices. Any attack on their reasoning will be much more subtle.

If we compare it to driving:
Mandatory seatbelt use is a reasonable restriction.
Speed limits are a reasonable restriction.
Banning cars is not a reasonable restriction.

Really? All 50 states have been able to ban autos from particular areas as they see fit. There's no reason under the federal Constitution why a state could simply shut down the highways to auto traffic for all time instead of just for a short period. Though of course there may be issues with that arising under some state statute.
 
"Reasonable restrictions" to free speech has a few meanings.

1. Yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater can be illegal.
2. Free political speech does not mean a guaranteed right to use speech disrupt others engaged in lawful, peaceful activities, just a right to express oneself publicly.
3. "Obscenity" can be illegal, in some contexts.

By that measure, "reasonable restrictions" mean that the "right to keep and bear arms" does not mean "the right to plink at tin cans on the sidewalk downtown during rush hour with people all around." I think we can hang with that.

It means that assault can be illegal. The right to "keep and bear" does not mean the "right to threaten the innocent with a gun." I think we can hang with that, too.

The third point, though, is a bit touchier. Does it mean that guns can be banned in many places because people don't like them? Who doesn't like them? What is the standard? Who gets to claim they are "offended"?

That's probably where the problems will lie, just as they do with "free speech."
 
The plinking and the threatening deal with the use of arms, not "Keep and Bear". The free speech aspects of the First Amendment deal with "Use". The First Amendment and the Second Amendment are apples and oranges.

This -
"Claiming that the Second Amendment doesn't protect individual rights might be a tough sell, but the city's public safety argument will be at least as tough."
- from the article, brings to mind the true aspect of the Second Amendment. Regardless of whether the Amendment protects an individual right or not is immaterial. The Right shall not be infringed. Period.

Later on in the article is this:
"The obvious key here is that DC says people can use rifles and shotguns for self-defense. D.C. also adds that they don't believe that the regulations that lock up and require the disassembling of guns does not "prevent the use of a lawful firearm in self-defense."
DC claims that even though handguns are banned, the right may still be exercised with rifles and shotguns. Again, it isn't about exercising the right but about how government shall not infringe upon the right. And they are talking about the use of arms and not the keeping and bearing thereof. The whole case is supposed to be about the keeping and bearing of arms, not the use of them. Am I not correct?

Fenty and company are heavily engaged in obfuscation. That is all they have. They have no defense.

Woody

This crap will continue until the Court stops allowing itself to be misused as a legislative branch of government, or as an alternative to amending the Constitution. B.E. Wood
 
Well written and well thought out, Desertdog. However, are you expecting anything different from gun opponents? They have an agenda that does not include logic or statistics. Your argument is grounded in logic and statistics. The opposing argument is grounded in emotion. No surprises all around.
 
If "self-defense" is an issue...

Once DC acknowledges that self-defense is an acceptable reason to own a gun, they have (you should pardon the expression) shot themselves in the foot. Handguns are, in their very nature, defensive weapons. Long guns are much less useful in that role; they are harder to carry, to conceal, and to deploy, whether on the street or at home.

Of course, this argument appeals to logic, which is not important to anti-self-defense organizations or individuals; perhaps it will be of more interest to the Court.

(on the term "anti-self-defense", see here:

http://www.seark.net/~jlove/pc.htm

Some good advice on controlling the language in the debate)
 
Deanimator:

In order for that "reasoning" to make sense, you'd have to believe that the 1st Amendment permits the banning of Judaism, so long as people are allowed to be Catholics or Zoroastrians instead.

Darn. I wish I'd said that. Give me a few days and I will. :) Nicely done.

I suspect that there's also a good argument to be made that banning handguns while allowing rifles and shotguns is blatant discrimination against the handicapped.

Some people do not have two functioning arms or hands and therefore cannot use a long gun but are able to use a handgun well. Other people simply do not have the physical strength to employ a rifle or shotgun but, again, can do so with a handgun. Many people do not have the skill to disassemble and reassemble a firearm, and a prudent government should not want to require people to do so.

Mayor Fenty and the District of Columbia might consider all such people trivial. I don't. I would be surprised and saddened if the Supreme Court shares Mayor Fenty's outlook on the value of human lives. I'm not surprised that Mayor Fenty has that outloook, though, because a mayor that did value the lives of his constituents would not persist in supporting a law that costs so many of them.
 
"The obvious key here is that DC says people can use rifles and shotguns for self-defense. D.C. also adds that they don't believe that the regulations that lock up and require the disassembling of guns does not "prevent the use of a lawful firearm in self-defense."

So much for reason. Just how does one use a disassembled firearm for self-defense? I guess, if someone breaks into your home, you're supposed to throw the parts at them.

Fenty, and those of his ilk, aren't interested in reason. They are interested in pushing their agenda. If reason played any part in their thinking, they would recognize the indisputable fact that DC, Chicago, the State of NJ, and other anti-gun areas of this country, have by far the highest crime rates. You can show them statistics to support that claim until you're blue in the face, and it makes no impression. They simply will not admit that 40 years of gun control in this country has done nothing to reduce crime, or that criminals will always find a way to get guns.
 
Clarification:
The DC Circuit court threw out the "functional gun ban", and DC/Fenty has not appealed that part of the verdict. Their appeal is even based on long guns being functional at time of defensive need. Given the legal gymnastics performed to get to this point, many have not yet realized DC has grudgingly accepted that one can now keep shotguns/rifles unlocked, assembled & loaded at home.

...except that the DC Circuit court issued a stay putting off that repeal, the "functional gun ban" is still administratively in effect, and the Heller team is asking DC Circuit court to end the stay on that part of the verdict. DC's response to that request is due September 24, and should be particularly entertaining.
 
My handgun is useful as a militia tool so I can fight my way to my Militaristic clone rifle..

I know variations of this statement have been made time and again, but there is truth to it.

I am not lugging around a rifle everywhere I go, but I have a defensive tool that will allow me the ability to get to it if the SHTF..

Think SHTF can't ever happen? It is happening right now somewhere.
 
Some people do not have two functioning arms or hands and therefore cannot use a long gun but are able to use a handgun well.
Some buffoon will doubtless declare that they can defend themselves with the martial arts...
 
DC cannot separate the handguns from "arms" in the 2A. The argument brought to the SC is not about public policy, but Constitutional law. By separating handguns from other "arms", and making a public policy appeal to the SC, I do believe DC has already lost their case, if the SC now takes it.
 
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The rationale for special regulation or banning of handguns is that they're concealable. That's the rationale for even bothering to identify them legally as a distinct class of firearms.

That is not a valid rationale. How can something be bad when hidden but not bad when displayed openly? That's a fashion choice. If open carry in big cities weren't already either illegal or rare as a purple cow (except in AZ and maybe VA), criminals could open carry and still keep the advantage of surprise. A criminal with a handgun is less dangerous than a criminal with a long gun, so if you're going to ban handguns based on something other than the silly "hidden=bad" rationale, why not ban all guns?

That is of course the endgame; the only reason for banning handguns is the idea that all guns should be banned, but those long guns are used by hunters so banning them outright isn't politically possible. Or at least the only guns people actually carry except in the woods are handguns, and so those need to be banned to effect a de-facto ban on all gun carry.

And I think gun carry is really the reason for banning guns. Does anyone really care who has what in their home or apartment? Not really. It's the mythical fear guns on the street that everyone cares about. That's why guns are banned, regulated, and taxed. Because people are worried about their criminal use in society, not who has what under their mattress. Bad people who have guns carry those guns. By banning guns the idea is that bad people can be prevented from toting guns around to kill people.

So because the only nexus where the law has a chance in Hell of stopping the proliferation of firearms is at the point of sale, the theory goes that we must give up our rights to handguns (or all guns) simply to prevent a few bad people from carrying them around... because, well, we all know that weapon carry laws are unenforceable and don't work.
 
reasonable regulation is not in the constitution. the GOV does not have the power to restrict ownership or carrying of arms at all. that power has been specifically prohibited from the gov by the 2nd.

all the case law in the world cant override the simple and unavoidable language of the second and the duty to uphold it thrust upon us as gun owners and citizens.

we are the last line of defense when the gov oversteps its authority. write your local federal judges and lawmakers. let them know you are armed, trained and ready to enforce your rights. then follow up.
 
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