Is copper fouling real?

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The problem with that is, he is doing it to a pistol barrel, which is easy to drop into a sink or bucket. Try that with a 24" barrel on an action. You would need a special sink or something. I guess yu could do it in your bath tub.

Yeah, I guess we could shower with our rifles. Another reason rifles should be stainless steel.

3C
 
And when you're done with that, you can walk around your bedroom in your underwear, carrying your rifle, singing "this is my rifle this is my gun..."
In the army I saw a guy do just that. His rifle came out pretty clean. He still had to clean the bore and oil it. He got away with it but nobody else dared do it.
I have tried a variety of bore cleaners including a mixture of Brasso and ammonia. Pretty corrosive. Also JB bore paste. I just don't believe that accuracy stays the same without cleaning your barrel. Especially of there is copper fouling. Lapped barrels of course don't foul nearly as much.
 
I always thought I was cleaning my rifles well until I purchased a cheap endoscope from Amazon and found my riffling full of copper, less so or harder to detect on my stainless barrels, Hoppes works if left overnight verses running a brush through right after a wet patch, Pro Shot copper solvent works but I think using Hoppes overnight works better and I have a lot of Hoppes, a brush speeds up copper removal and it takes a LOT of patches to do a good cleaning
I'm under the belief that a fouled barrel is more accurate than a clean one but it seems to me if the grooves are full of copper it could affect accuracy
 
I've never really seen it, but I'm not a bench rest shooter milking every ounce of accuracy out of a barrel either. I can hit steel targets, and put shots on paper, good enough for me to shoot a 4 or 6 inch group at 100 yards. I've never really seen fouling be too much of a problem. A few patches over the years come out blue or green, the green is pretty striking when a patch comes out green. If I'm concerned I have some stronger cleaners and am not opposed to wrapping a choir boy copper scrub around a brush, just to make it more aggressive, but - I've only done it a few time, and usually when I have a new to me old firearm, and just want to clean it and get to a new baseline, cause I don't know if it has ever been cleaned ... lol for the last few years, I've really just used Hoppes solvent, and I guess I have a spritz bottle of something else in my range bag, but it is a cleaner and they are all decent IMHO. I was thinking of switching to mineral spirits, for carbon removal, and then just using the Hoppes, for a final bore clean up.
 
Crazy I came across this thread a lot of great information I just recently purchased a used rifle and was trying to sight it in with factory ammo best I could get was 2” group with either one bore didn’t look that dirty but run hoppes 9 down the barrel and the patch came out bluish green I been cleaning and soaking for 3 hours now
 
Have seen fouling several times first hand.

The worst was a rem 700 300WM that wouldn't group for anything. Used so many products to get her clean and nothing.
At first I was brushing out tiny slivers of copper and (lead?) something else.

Finally resorted to using 10 minute ammonia soaks and flushing with water to get the copper out. Turned into a decent shooter. But egads the amount of shmutz in that barrel was astonishing.
 
My first muzzleloader was a cva hawken I got used in a horse trade. It always had this ruff spot you would run into ramming balls. First time I used solvent instead of soap and water to clean it my brush pulled out a three inch long, paper thin strip of copper. Guessing someone at some point had rammed copper jacketed bullets in it. Removing this improved accuracy slightly and made ramming 100 times easier
 
Just powder coat all your bullets. wont have to worry about copper or lead fouling. I wonder if powder coating fouling will be easyer to remove? LOL.

I am going to say, as an ersatz measure, try lubricating your bullets. I did this to prevent cupro nickel fouling in my Lee Enfields. I had this awful Iraqi ball ammunition that positively left lumps of fouling, and it took weeks of soaking with Sweets to reduce the lumps. Weeks of soaking. I left a cleaning rod with a wet patch at the spot, and regularly pulled the cleaning rod and added a new saturated patch. And then I remembered that back in the old days, and I mean pre WW1 and slightly afterwards, shooters were dipping their bullets in grease to prevent cupro nickle fouling.

That tin on the top is filled with a grease.

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Shooters would take their cartridges, dip the bullets in the grease, and pull them out. I did that, and no jacket fouling at all from those 303 Iraqi bullets. None at all! Then I got lazy, dropped chunks of grease in a bag, and shaked cartridges with the grease, and coated the cartridges that way. It worked, but was messier than the dip and twist method.

Over time, I have walked away from industrial greases. Greasing cartridges is messy on the fingers both in the prep and in the shooting. Fingers get dirty and I don't want industrial greases in my mouth or eyes. However there are plenty of human grade greases on supermarket shelves. Vasoline works well. Hair gels are stiffer, one in the picture has beeswax and is fairly thick. I like the thicker stuff. Depending on the amount of grease used, (and I have deliberately used an excessive amount of grease to see what happens), grease will flow back into the action.

30-06 round: Big Grease before on left, after on right

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the grease rings in the extractor groove show that grease flows down the case sides out to the action.

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grease squeezed into the action with massive grease globs on the bullets

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dip and twist method and amount of grease on bolt face

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Because I was also fireforming these belted magnum cartridges, I smeared grease over the cases. That way the case slide to the bolt face without grabbing onto the chamber. After firing, I had a perfectly fireformed and stress free case. From then, all I had to do was bump the shoulder back 0.003" during full length resizing.

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shot well too

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I have yet to shoot the thing, but I have a pre 64 M70 with a custom 300 Win Mag barrel. Before I purchased it, I made sure to push a patch down the tube, as the seller is someone I know, who never cleans his weapons after shooting them!. I don't want a pitted barrel. When I first looked down the tube, I could not see grooves and barely saw lands. The tube was full of jacket fouling. However, once I wore out a brass bristle brush, there was a nice shiny bore under all that fouling. The seller kept notes of load development, and looking at them, I noticed a written comment: "finally found an accurate load!". I am very sure he had not found an accurate load, that just by chance, he shot a good group. If he had fired more rounds, he would have been back to blown groups because the tube was full of jacket fouling. When I do shoot this barrel, it will be with greased bullets, because I know, this barrel is a fouler.

I do have a JC Higgins M50 with a chrome plated bore.

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and it copper fouls something awful, and groups walk, and then blow once the tube has around 20 rounds through it. I paid a gunsmith to lap the thing, and that helped, but it still copper fouled. So, I tried greasing bullets. No copper fouling.

I cannot hold hard enough to notice any inaccuracy with my greased ammunition. These are typical groups

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Blow enough lubricant down the barrel, and jacket to barrel friction will be reduced to the level, that material from the bullet will not rub off onto the barrel. I am also of the opinion that reduced friction will reduce bullet engraving resistance, reducing pressures just at the throat. I can't prove it yet, but I am sure that grease coating the throat will reduce flame temperatures and engraving resistance and extend the lifetime of the throat, and the rest of the barrel. I mean, come on, remove the grease from your wheel bearings and see how long they last. Of course a grease layer blown in front of the bullet is going to reduce wear.

I will bet the Swiss noticed benefits from greasing their bullets, they were doing that from the 1888's, up to the 1980's

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The grease ring on these bullets is dry, in consistency, between candle wax and toilet bowl ring grease. Sort of in that range. In the pre WW1 Arms and the Man magazine, shooters were offering up grease recipes that were probably as hard as modern bullet lubes to prevent jacket fouling.

If you have a barrel that jacket fouls, try grease. And take some cleaning wipes and hand cleaner to wipe your hands clean before the drive home.
 
I hope these articles from the Arms and the Man are interesting. Without Google scanning them into Google books, I would never have found them. There was vibrant and active experimentation with greased bullets before the Army shut the whole thing down. The Army made over 1 million "low number M1903's" in factories without temperature gages and obsolete production controls. Since metal temperatures were judged by the eye, and forge shop workers were being paid piece rate, billets frequently were over heated. For the forge shop workers, hotter meant faster stamping, and more money. A perverse incentive if there was ever one. Low number Army rifles were blowing in front of shooter faces, with Army ammunition. The Army of course, never admits fault or failure, and when "perfect" Army rifles were blowing up with "perfect" Army ammunition, they found a scapegoat: greased bullets. The Army lied, created false data, said greased bullets were dangerous and created overpressures which blew up rifles. The Army never, ever, admitted that the actions blew because the metal was burnt in the factory, and the Army banned greased bullets from NRA competition. And just about that time, bullet jackets were improved to the point that jacket fouling was no longer the horrible problem it was was cupro nickle bullets.

Townsend Whelen on Mobilubricant. 31 July 1913 Arms and the Man

The question I wished to solve were: Is the use of mobilubricant worth while, and what are the results on accuracy? Mobilubricant is a thick grease of about the consistency of butter at a temperature of 70 degrees F and a trifle darker in color. It is made by the Vacuum Oil Company, of Rochester, N.Y., and is used for automobiles. Enough to last a lifetime can be bought for a dollar. The method of using it is to twirl the bullets in it until all that portion of the bullet outside the shell is covered with a thin film of the grease. Reasonable care is taken not to get any grease on the shell and to have a fairly uniform coating on each bullet. Cartridges thus treated are inserted in the chamber or magazine of the rifle and fired in this condition. In the hunting field the grease can be carried in a rubber waterproof match safe in the pocket and the bullets greased before putting them in the magazine.

In experimenting with the grease the bore of the rifle was first slightly lubricated by swabbing with a flannel patch slightly oiled with Mobilubricant.

This treatment of the bullet does to a great extent, but not wholly, prevent metallic fouling in rifles of very high velocity. It does prevent the metallic fouling being deposited in discernible lumps, and the novice would suppose that it prevented it entirely as it can no longer be seen by the eye. The blue color can, however, always be obtained by swabbing the with ammonia showing that despite the grease there is a thin plating of the bore with cupro-nickel. This plating is quiet thin and can be entirely removed by a few minutes of swabbing with stronger ammonia, Winchester Crystal Cleanser or Neidner’s Firearm Dope, whereas, when metallic fouling occurs in lumps, it can not be removed without the regular application of the metal fouling solution.

Mobilubricant had the effect of preventing metallic fouling in lumps in all the rifles in which I tried except in on 280 Ross rifle. In the other it did prevent it, but in this rifle it fouled in lumps despite the use of the Mobilubricant as detailed above. The experiment was then tried of mixing Acheson Graphite, grade 1340 with the Mobilubricant to a thick grease and using this. The grease did prevent the fouling in the Ross, and I am inclined to believe that the use of the graphite with the Mobilubricant is a good thing with all rifles.

In regard to the effect on accuracy when using Mobilubriant, I found that in every case its use increased the accuracy with the 30-40 and .30 caliber Model 1906 rifles using high power ammunition. In every case with these rifles the groups shot with the Mobilubricant were smaller than when the rifles were shot dry. Its effect on the accuracy of the Savage .22 High power was rather detrimental. The Ross was used only with greased bullets so that I can not tell of its effect in this rifle, but the accuracy with the grease was certainly all one would ask for. In a .303 Savage the rifle shat as well with the grease as without it. Mobilubricant did not work well with alloy bullets, seeming in these cases to ruin the accuracy. Apparently its use has not effect at all on the elevations. Normal elevations at hunting ranges seem to be the same with as without the grease. It is probable, however, that there will be a difference in elevations at the long ranges due to a difference in velocity which would not show up at hunting ranges.

Well, of course, know that the use of this grease decreased the rapidity of wear or erosion of the bore. Generally speaking, the bore of a Springfield in which Mobilubricant has been used looks after 5,000 rounds about the same as to wear as the bore of one which has been shot dry looks after 1,500.

Summing up the tests in regard to the use of Mobilubricant we find that :Its use decreases the amount of metallic fouling; it simplifies cleaning the bore; it prevents from one-half to two thirds the wear and erosion of the bore; it considerably increases the accuracy in most rifles; and it does not affect the levation or zero up to 200 yards and probably very little up to 500 yards.
 
These articles are so long that it requires an individual post.


27 April 1918 Rifle Training in War, part 4 Major Smith Brookhart, Arms and the Man

The use of greased bullets in rifle training is very desirable. There was a time when riflemen argued about the effect of grease upon the accuracy of the rifle but it long ago ended in favor of the grease.

The Winchester Company is now making all of its tests of both rifles and ammunition with greased bullets. When bullets were fired dry it was found the ammunition from the first loading machines would give the best velocity, with slightly reduced velocities apparent in the product of succeeding machines although fired from the same rifle. After they began greasing the bullets the velocity held even and steady. The results from the last machines were just as good as the first. It is true the velocity of greased bullets is higher, but it is even. They all go the same, providing they are greased about the same. It was claimed that grease in the chamber caused the primers to blow uot but that is a mistake. There is a higher pressure caused by the more perfect sealing of the bore when grease is used, but the pressure is not increased enough to blow out a properly seated primer.

The greatest benefit of the greased bullet is its effect upon the life of the rifle. In tests a few year ago all of the rifles which figured in the trials were worn out and lost their accuracy under three thousand round when fired with dry bullets. Those fired with greased bullets held their accuracy from 6700 to 7200 rounds. Accuracy as used here must not be confounded with “serviceable” as applied to the ordnance tests. These rifles showed no loss of accuracy until they had fired the above number of rounds and without the grease they showed loss of accuracy upon firing less than half the number. If the use of grease will double the life of a rifle, it is very important.

Grease also prevents metal fouling and prevents acid fouling for the powder. It is a fine preservative for the bore of the rifle, but it has some disadvantages. As generally used it is dirty and disagreeable to handle. If mixed with sand and dirt it is very injurious to the rifle. It must e kept clean and it must be applied evenly. A small amount on each bullet is sufficient. It causes a certain amount of smoke and that may prevent its use on the battle field and especially by snipers. Nevertheless, it protects the rifle and ought to be used during the training period. If a bad quality of grease is used it causes carbon fouling.

Mobilubricant, Polarine, cup grease, or Keystone Journal grease may be used by putting the point of each bullet in the grease or by rubbing it over the bullets on a whole clup. Blue ointment used in the same way makes an excellent bullet grease. The best plan is a compound of 40% beeswax and 40% Carnauba wax and 20% Petrolatum. This must be melted and the bullets must be warmed and dipped into it. If the bullets are cold they take too much. They can be warmed with hot water. This compound hardens, is clean and easy to handle. When fired it leaves a trace of smoke along the entire course of the bullet, but that is no disadvantage in training. The great riflemen of the United States have nearly all used greased bullets during the last half dozen years.

Metal fouling is also entirely prevented by the use of greased bullets.

The rifle is preserved and its life prolonged by the use of greased bullets.

The use of grease is fool proof.

The only possible injuries that can result from its use arise when sand or dirt becomes mixed with and scratch the bore or when grease closes up the bore and bursts the barrel.

Both are easily avoided.

The writer has ample proof of these conclusions. He has commanded riflemen when the won world championships with rifles that had been fired more than 3000 times without any cleaning whatever. But every bullet had been greased. One of these rifles that had fired over 3300 rounds without cleaning the bore, showed signs of loss in accuracy at 1000 yards the day before the Palma match in 1912. The bore was wiped out and a collection of hard baked carbon fouling was found near the muzzle. This was removed with a steel brush and next day that rifle put on 216 points out of a possible 225 at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. This was the second score in the team that made the world’s record in the Palma match-and the man who made 217 also greased his bullets. This rifle fired 3300 rounds before cleaning of any kind was necessary, and then was only because of a carbon fouling which was easily removed. There was no acid reaction. Since that date other riflemen have won the Herrick, the Wimbledon, the Marine Corps and the Regimental Championship with the same treatment of their rifles. These are the greatest test of accuracy in the United States. The failure to clean the ordinary fouling from the rifle daily, was no advantage. Neither did it cause any injury. A better way would be to wipe it out and oil, but the burned grease is a protection and not an injury to the bore.

It would save many million of dollars lost in worn out rifles if-

The War Department would prohibit the use of the solutions and instead-

Issue the beeswax, Carnauba wax and petrolatum compound for greasing bullets.

It would increase the efficiency of men in rifle practice.

It would make rifle cleaning easy and preserve the rifle.

The president of the National Rifle Association now has a rifle that has fired over 7000 rounds of greased bullets and is still at its best for accuracy It has never been treated with the solutions.

2 Nov 1918 Little Lessons In Reloading, by John Lynn, No 3- Greasing Bullets.

One of the most serviceable bullet lubricants is a mixture of mobilubricant, graphite and beeswax. Before giving the proportions most desirable, it is well to analyze the subject a bit.

Bullets are lubricated to cut down or prevent leading and metal fouling of the rifle barrel, to make cleaning for the barrel easier, and to make bullet resistance to powder gases more uniform. They are lubricated also to reduce friction and wear on the barrel, to increase bullet velocity, to lessen barrel flip slightly, and in some cases, to secure marked increases in accuracy. Some of these points are frequently overlooked by shooters.

The grease first of all must be of such a nature that heat will not “break it up” chemically and release elements in it which are not of a lubricating nature. It so happens that very many materials commonly thought of as greases will not conform to this test. In fact, some of them give free carbon when subjected to the high temperature of small bore rifles, and this carbon acts in the barrel like sand or powdered emery instead of a lubricant.

Other greases simply disappear under high temperature. To a large extent tallow does this. It is a lubricant, all right, for big-bore, low-powder bullets, where the temperature is low, but in more modern cartridges is nearly worthless. The melting point of tallow and other similar greases is so low that when a cartridge is loaded into a hot barrel it quickly becomes liquid and unless the base of the bullet fits the shell neck very tight, may drain back into the powder.

Mobilubricant is all lubricant, even at the highest temperature. In itself it would be an ideal bullet grease if it were not so soft, but it rubs off too easily for most convenient reloading and melts too soon for best results in cartridges. Graphite, a dry powder, is another goo lubricant, since it never changes under the highest temperature-but it cannot be made to stick to the bullets without mixing it in some carrier. Beeswax belongs to the class of lubricants which largely evaporate at high temperature, enough to carry the other materials to the point where they are needed before it goes off the job. The combination of the three is extremely effectual.

The manufacturers state that five to ten per cent of graphite should be added to ordinary cup greases, for use in bearing. For bullets the maximum can be used-that is, the quantity should be at least 10 percent of the weight of the other elements, and may well be 10 percent of the mobilubricant alone. Usually it will take almost as much beeswax as mobilubricant to make the mixture stiff enough, though if less than this can be used all the better. The beeswax is of no value except as a carrier.

The best way of lubricating cast bullets is with a machine that forces on the grease at the same time they are sized, as the Ideal does. Metal-cased bullets must be lubricated by hand just before they are put in the rifle, and the box of grease with a bullet-sized hole in the top cannot be beat as a help, though many shooters simply use a finger. Cast bullets can be lubricated by hand by taking a lump of grease on a finger and rubbing it over the grooves, about as satisfactorily as by dipping them and wiping of cutting off the surplus.

Other materials to take the place of beeswax, especially, and of mobilubricant have been available, but are not now, on account of the war. One caution necessary is to be sure that every bullet is lubricated equally all the way round. If one side is dry, or nearly so, the result almost surely will be a falling off in accuracy. Another important point for owners of high power rifles is to shoot as few dry bullets as possible, since one such will reduce the life of the barrel as much as several well and properly greased.
 
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