Is It Just Me, Or Does Jeff Cooper . . .
- Thread starter bad_dad_brad
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Sean, I would not say he was racist as much as I woudl say he was politcally incorrect to use the common modern term. An example would be an article in one of his books where he got to drive and fire the main gun of an M1 tank. He was talking about how high tech it was and how well trained and intelligent the tank crews were. He made a statment something like; this technology is beyond the capabilities of a towel head or a potato digger or something to that effect. I guess you could call that raciest. But what he was saying is that he felt that the US had the best troops out there using the state of the art equipment and didn't pull any punches in saying so. He wasn't worried about making everybody happy or hurting anyone's feelings.
Dean Speir
Member
Errata
I think the problem here is that while everyone has an opinion about Jeff, his writings, and his achievements, very few seem to have any solid information much less a clearer idea of what's real versus what is myth.
I'll (grudgingly) allow you the Bren Ten, but the 10mm as we know it today dates back to 1972 and Whit Collins, when it was yclept the ".40 G&A." While two others were involved at that point, as Jeff himself acknowledges in the Nosler Reloading Manual #3: John Adams and Irv Stone (of BarSto), he was not one of them. At the time that Dornaus & Dixon brought the Bren Ten project to him, seeking the credibility of his endorsement, Jeff had actually been experimenting with the 9mm Magnum round, not even a .40 caliber one.
I think the problem here is that while everyone has an opinion about Jeff, his writings, and his achievements, very few seem to have any solid information much less a clearer idea of what's real versus what is myth.
Dean Speir
Member
"Wrong" is an understatement…
When D&D tanked, Jeff distanced himself from everything Bren and 10 as quickly as possible. It is one of his bitterest experiences, second only perhaps to his sale of API in mid-'92. But that was a personal/semi-private thing; the Bren 10 was very public!
The sole responsibility for anything to do with the 10mm surviving past the D&D debacle, belongs to Colt… and they had to fight Norma every step of the way to do it!
To be fair, Harry Stanford and AMT/IAI helped, but how many would even try to make a serious brief that with the "Javelina" as the sole 10mm production pistol around, the FBI would've taken any sort of look at that cartridge as their service round?
Make no mistake, it was Colt's introduction of the "Delta Elite" that kept the 10mm cartridge in production.
Not to be unkind, but boy-o-boy, are you ever!
When D&D tanked, Jeff distanced himself from everything Bren and 10 as quickly as possible. It is one of his bitterest experiences, second only perhaps to his sale of API in mid-'92. But that was a personal/semi-private thing; the Bren 10 was very public!
The sole responsibility for anything to do with the 10mm surviving past the D&D debacle, belongs to Colt… and they had to fight Norma every step of the way to do it!
To be fair, Harry Stanford and AMT/IAI helped, but how many would even try to make a serious brief that with the "Javelina" as the sole 10mm production pistol around, the FBI would've taken any sort of look at that cartridge as their service round?
Make no mistake, it was Colt's introduction of the "Delta Elite" that kept the 10mm cartridge in production.
Cooper is bad ‘coz he uses big words!!!
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It is humorous to note that people who have problems understanding some polysyllabic words, rather than educate themselves wish to deride the writer of these words.
Amazing.
Should Col. Cooper write ‘down’ to the level of the lowest common denominator, or perhaps his writing should give impetus to stretch and gain a greater vocabulary.
As for the 1911 pistol I think there is a very simple reason the basic design is still “the bestâ€. Our hands are still shaped the same now as in the year 1911 and basic cartridge design is also the same.
Regards,
HS/LD
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It is humorous to note that people who have problems understanding some polysyllabic words, rather than educate themselves wish to deride the writer of these words.
Amazing.
Should Col. Cooper write ‘down’ to the level of the lowest common denominator, or perhaps his writing should give impetus to stretch and gain a greater vocabulary.
As for the 1911 pistol I think there is a very simple reason the basic design is still “the bestâ€. Our hands are still shaped the same now as in the year 1911 and basic cartridge design is also the same.
Regards,
HS/LD
I think you are mistaking having a well-rounded vocabulary and having delusions of grandeur. There is a difference. Judging by his writing style, JC thinks he is a 14th century EuroLord.
I can't help thinking of the Queen of Hearts (Alice in Wonderland) saying "Off with his head!" when I read Cooper's stilted, hackneyed, painfully contorted prose.
As I mentioned before, JC has contributed a lot to firearms knowledge.
I can't help thinking of the Queen of Hearts (Alice in Wonderland) saying "Off with his head!" when I read Cooper's stilted, hackneyed, painfully contorted prose.
As I mentioned before, JC has contributed a lot to firearms knowledge.
Dean Speir
Member
[heh heh]
We have spoken!
Ironically, the publisher of his (considerably redacted¹) "Commentaries," caters to that very LCD.
¹.- And if you don't think so, compare that which is currently available on-line with what appears in print three-four months from now.
Now wait just a minute, BigG, you can have "stilted" and "painfully contorted prose," or you can have "hackneyed," butcha can't have both!
We have spoken!
And there's the rub.
Ironically, the publisher of his (considerably redacted¹) "Commentaries," caters to that very LCD.
¹.- And if you don't think so, compare that which is currently available on-line with what appears in print three-four months from now.
Hi, Dean Speir
I think the "hackneyed" comes from Cooper's self-congratulatory chortling when he occasionally coins a word yet never tires of reminding the reader. "Hoplophobe" (where is the barf icon when I need it) is one that for some reason generates disgust in my mind while "Crunchenticker" I admit elicits a chuckle.
I think the "hackneyed" comes from Cooper's self-congratulatory chortling when he occasionally coins a word yet never tires of reminding the reader. "Hoplophobe" (where is the barf icon when I need it) is one that for some reason generates disgust in my mind while "Crunchenticker" I admit elicits a chuckle.
Dean Speir
Member
Uh-oh…
Okay, so you yourself are not adverse to "reinventing" the language a bit, we see.
Tha's all right, I am the proud (actually, pleased as punch!) holder of such coinage m'self. It's what we, as writers, do… or at least should be doing.
Okay, so you yourself are not adverse to "reinventing" the language a bit, we see.
Tha's all right, I am the proud (actually, pleased as punch!) holder of such coinage m'self. It's what we, as writers, do… or at least should be doing.
Cooper's Word Choice Continued...
That's right. But the real test is when OTHER PEOPLE sing your praises as a wordsmith. It don't count when you blow your own horn!
I just imagine (I admit) Mr. Cooper sitting there smirking with self satisfaction each time he inserts the word hoplophobe into JC's Commentaries, which seems to be at every opportunity. In fact, it seems to me he makes sure to use it at least once per commentary and I've been reading it since Volume I, real time on the Internet, before there were any gun forums to speak of.
Goblin is a cool word but I don't hear it or read it elsewhere so I assume it has not passed into the language as a truly successful coined word should. Crunchenticker I use myself to describe the DA/SA auto pistol.
That's right. But the real test is when OTHER PEOPLE sing your praises as a wordsmith. It don't count when you blow your own horn!
I just imagine (I admit) Mr. Cooper sitting there smirking with self satisfaction each time he inserts the word hoplophobe into JC's Commentaries, which seems to be at every opportunity. In fact, it seems to me he makes sure to use it at least once per commentary and I've been reading it since Volume I, real time on the Internet, before there were any gun forums to speak of.
Goblin is a cool word but I don't hear it or read it elsewhere so I assume it has not passed into the language as a truly successful coined word should. Crunchenticker I use myself to describe the DA/SA auto pistol.
Joe Demko
Member
I have far less of a problem with JC, however annoying I find his writing style, than I do with some of his followers. At times, they seem to have confused him with the other JC.
Pendragon
Member
Always makes me giggle.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Well, I just happen to enjoy the heck out of Cooper's writing style. I find it to be great fun. His ten-dollar words aren't nearly so much of a problem as some of the $25 variety from Bill Buckley!
And I just don't understand what is so off-putting from his use of the editorial "We". I grew up in a world where that was standard procedure. I find his writing to be refreshing, particularly after too many years of having to write engineering reports exclusively in third person, past tense.
As far as the 1911, there are few handguns I haven't shot, during the last five-plus decades, from Lilliput to Raging Bull. I have found that the Weaver stance and the 1911 to be the best for me. What's best for you is your business and not mine.
, Art
And I just don't understand what is so off-putting from his use of the editorial "We". I grew up in a world where that was standard procedure. I find his writing to be refreshing, particularly after too many years of having to write engineering reports exclusively in third person, past tense.
As far as the 1911, there are few handguns I haven't shot, during the last five-plus decades, from Lilliput to Raging Bull. I have found that the Weaver stance and the 1911 to be the best for me. What's best for you is your business and not mine.
, ArtHarold Mayo
Member
Goblin is a cool word but I don't hear it or read it elsewhere so I assume it has not passed into the language as a truly successful coined word should.
Mr. Cooper did not coin the word "goblin"...
It has been part of our language for centuries. It is unlikely that "hoplophobe" is in Webster's but I assure you that "goblin" is.
Mr. Cooper did not coin the word "goblin"...
It has been part of our language for centuries. It is unlikely that "hoplophobe" is in Webster's but I assure you that "goblin" is.
Pendragon
Member
Wow!
I thought he just meant that Coopers use of goblin had not caught on. Of course Cooper did not coin that word...
I thought he just meant that Coopers use of goblin had not caught on. Of course Cooper did not coin that word...
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Possibly he was the first to apply it to Bad Guys? (In print, anyway.)
"Hoplophobe" is a lovely word. I've thoroughly enjoyed dropping "Hoplophobia" into gun discussions where anti- to mildly-anti- types were present.
"Well, that attitude is merely hoplophobia, readily dealt with by any competent psychiatrist..." and said with a shrug, of course; sort of a "toss-off" remark. The implication is "MY mental health is superior to YOUR mental health," without it being spoken of as such.
And folks don't expect Greek words from a redneck, particularly in the context of psychiatry.
Art
"Hoplophobe" is a lovely word. I've thoroughly enjoyed dropping "Hoplophobia" into gun discussions where anti- to mildly-anti- types were present.
"Well, that attitude is merely hoplophobia, readily dealt with by any competent psychiatrist..." and said with a shrug, of course; sort of a "toss-off" remark.
The implication is "MY mental health is superior to YOUR mental health," without it being spoken of as such.And folks don't expect Greek words from a redneck, particularly in the context of psychiatry.
Art
bad_dad_brad
Member
Regarding the M1911, this is sort of what I was referring to. I still want one though, just for fun.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2940
Honestly, I would rather have a Glock for the intended purpose of handgun self-defense. I won't debate that the M1911 is more accurate, it is. But I think the .45 modern pistols are less finicky.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2940
Honestly, I would rather have a Glock for the intended purpose of handgun self-defense. I won't debate that the M1911 is more accurate, it is. But I think the .45 modern pistols are less finicky.
Thumper
Member
Dean...good to have you here. Can I tell people I know you?
I don't mind a man of strong opinions.
In fact, I'd rather deal with someone of strong opinions; at least I know where they stand, right or wrong. Jeff Cooper is a man who doesn't leave you wondering where he stands on any number of issues, and he's too old to care about "political correctness," whatever the ***K that means.
True, he's not the best writer in the world, but I like his sometimes odd, sometimes quaint mingling of words. As someone else said, his writing is an acquired taste.
"They don't make many like him anymore." They sure don't, and that's a pity. What will we be left with when he's gone? I'll miss his "Commentaries" dearly when that inevitable day comes.
As for the 1911, it's a hell of a handgun. Is it the right gun for everyone? Hardly. But its balance and power is THE standard for any combat handgun to emulate. Of course it isn't perfect, and from what I've read some small parts can be a bit fragile, but the basic design is quite user friendly. I have one 1911 and more than anything else, I love its balance in my hand.
DAL
P.S. My newly-acquired Glock 26 will be my carry gun when clothing permits (the job goes to my S&W 642 otherwise), and I'll even use it in IDPA competition, but for the sheer joy of a wonderfully-designed instrument, firing a 1911 is a hard act to beat.
In fact, I'd rather deal with someone of strong opinions; at least I know where they stand, right or wrong. Jeff Cooper is a man who doesn't leave you wondering where he stands on any number of issues, and he's too old to care about "political correctness," whatever the ***K that means.
True, he's not the best writer in the world, but I like his sometimes odd, sometimes quaint mingling of words. As someone else said, his writing is an acquired taste.
"They don't make many like him anymore." They sure don't, and that's a pity. What will we be left with when he's gone? I'll miss his "Commentaries" dearly when that inevitable day comes.
As for the 1911, it's a hell of a handgun. Is it the right gun for everyone? Hardly. But its balance and power is THE standard for any combat handgun to emulate. Of course it isn't perfect, and from what I've read some small parts can be a bit fragile, but the basic design is quite user friendly. I have one 1911 and more than anything else, I love its balance in my hand.
DAL
P.S. My newly-acquired Glock 26 will be my carry gun when clothing permits (the job goes to my S&W 642 otherwise), and I'll even use it in IDPA competition, but for the sheer joy of a wonderfully-designed instrument, firing a 1911 is a hard act to beat.
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Elmer Keith
Just started reading Keith's Rifles for Big Game again. Elmer at his worst was a better stylist than Jeff at his best. JMHO
Mind you, I agree with most of the stuff Jeff writes. Just don't care for how he packages it. Quaint -- yes, that's a good word for Cooper's style; quaint.
Just started reading Keith's Rifles for Big Game again. Elmer at his worst was a better stylist than Jeff at his best. JMHO
Mind you, I agree with most of the stuff Jeff writes. Just don't care for how he packages it. Quaint -- yes, that's a good word for Cooper's style; quaint.
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