Full Cylinder Carry On Certain Models

Dr. Dingus

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2023
Messages
90
Two questions about two different guns.
Both questions asked to me by different friends.

1. Is it safe to carry a new S&W Model 27 classic with a full cylinder? I've done so for years, just assuming it must have a passive safety built in, but I couldn't actually find information on S&W's website about what safety that model has. I'm assuming it has a transfer bar.

2. Is it safe to carry a Cim SAA clone with a full cylinder since it has a floating firing pin? I've always loaded 1, skipped 1, loaded 4, and left the hammer on an empty chamber. From what I can tell, the pin doesn't extend to the primer unless the trigger is held. Barring dropping the gun/smacking the hammer really hard (Since it is in a good holster and looped down/not going anywhere) It would appear to be safe in theory. There is also putting the hammer down between rounds in the cylinder. I've tested that with 45 colt snap caps, and the gun has yet to rotate back overtop of a cartridge.

Thanks for the input!
 
Yes.

No, unless the cylinder base pin has been locked into the safe position.
How do you go about doing that? I'd assume it would obviously be quicker to rock 5 shots and dump a 6th in if needed, verse unlock the pin, but I am curious nonetheless how you go about working the base pin. I never knew this was a thing!

Edit: I found a diagram of the base pin. Very interesting indeed. I will have to check this out when I pull out the gun next.
 
Last edited:
S&W has used the same basic action since 1945.
There are two safeties........
The hammer rebound safety forces the hammer back and locks it in place until the trigger is released and pulled again.
The hammer block is a steel bar bar that blocks the hammer from moving forward.
When the trigger is pulled the block moves DOWN from in front of the hammer so it can move forward.

Colt has used a similar rebounding hammer and hammer block since around 1900.

Newer designs usually use a transfer bar safety-ignition system.
In this system the hammer cannot directly contact the firing pin.
When the trigger is pulled a steel "paddle" raises UP in between the hammer and firing pin. When the hammer drops it contacts the bar, which transfers the impact to the firing pin.
The transfer bar system can be used on double action and single action revolvers, but the firing pin CANNOT be on the hammer, it must be in the frame.
 
Two questions about two different guns.
Both questions asked to me by different friends.

1. Is it safe to carry a new S&W Model 27 classic with a full cylinder? I've done so for years, just assuming it must have a passive safety built in, but I couldn't actually find information on S&W's website about what safety that model has. I'm assuming it has a transfer bar.

2. Is it safe to carry a Cim SAA clone with a full cylinder since it has a floating firing pin? I've always loaded 1, skipped 1, loaded 4, and left the hammer on an empty chamber. From what I can tell, the pin doesn't extend to the primer unless the trigger is held. Barring dropping the gun/smacking the hammer really hard (Since it is in a good holster and looped down/not going anywhere) It would appear to be safe in theory. There is also putting the hammer down between rounds in the cylinder. I've tested that with 45 colt snap caps, and the gun has yet to rotate back overtop of a cartridge.

Thanks for the input!
Yes, with any S&W, can't speak for Colt, Ruger or one of the others, however. Best Regards, Rod
 
Yes, with any S&W, can't speak for Colt, Ruger or one of the others, however. Best Regards, Rod
I would not argue such based upon my own practice with antique S&W, but I will say that there is well documented situations which brought about the internal safeties that a modern S&W have engineered into them. The older guns are not drop safe and probably should be carried fully loaded. Hammer on empty is advisable for antiques.
 
S&W - safe

Cimarron SAA clone - Depends on the model. Some have safety features and some don't.
 
West, I would agree that very old Smiths might not have been safe with all six chambers loaded. But if memory serves, the hammer plaque was installed sometime in World War II. Since then it’s been incorporated in all of the double actions.
While there have been some problems with the internal lock, I have not seen any in years on any of the websites, I frequent. Most of my Smiths are pre-lock, but the five that have the internal lock have been no problem for me . Best regards Rod
 
The Italian Single Action market is kind of confused right now. Some have the odd retracting firing pin that is supposed to stay back except when the trigger is pulled, some don't. Look at the gun, look at the instructions.

Smith & Wessons got the improved hammer block in 1945. I think the earlier "flag" hammer block is adequately safe when in good condition and not gummed up with Cosmoline, but then I have been known to carry a 1911 with chamber loaded, too.
 
Well, coming late to the party you've got the right answer. Smith is safe with six. I had to convince my dad of this when he showed me his gun many years ago. He still never loaded six.

Probably not safe with the Single Action so I'd edge to go with only 5 in the cylinder. Be safe and have lots of fun.
 
The Italian Single Action market is kind of confused right now. Some have the odd retracting firing pin that is supposed to stay back except when the trigger is pulled, some don't. Look at the gun, look at the instructions.

Smith & Wessons got the improved hammer block in 1945. I think the earlier "flag" hammer block is adequately safe when in good condition and not gummed up with Cosmoline, but then I have been known to carry a 1911 with chamber loaded, too.
I have a mix of faithful 1873 clones and newer guns with a “safety”. The manual for all of them says to carry with 5 in the cylinder. I treat them all as if it’s unsafe to carry one under the hammer.
 
Cimarron is an importer. They sell SAA replicas (Colt 1873 type) made by Uberti and Pietta. Most of the current Uberti 1873s have the Cattleman 2 passive safety, a retracting firing pin. I think Uberti still recommends keeping the hammer down on an empty chamber. The Piettas are pretty true to the Colt design which means load five.

Your gun, your responsibility. Read the manual.
 
I have the cattleman II with the firing pin wedge pin in the hammer - the concept is sound but its not 100% reliable on my handgun. I keep an empty chamber under the hammer when not using the gun but will load 6 when using/shooting. There are several private label guns on the market that are the cattleman Il - the II only has three clicks when the hammer is cocked and not 4 "C-O-L-T". I think the other Ubertis have 4 and should not be carried with a live round under the hammer. If you lower the hammer easy and it is held off the frame by the firing pin it is resting on the primer - if it doesn't have a transfer bar built in to hold it off that is. You can look through the frame and see if the firing pin is making contact with the primer also.

There is the New Cattleman but it isn't the latest model its just named that. It has a long cyl pin that can be pushed back to hold the hammer back off primers. The gun can not be fired until the pin is pulled out to the firing position so it doesnt matter how many cartridges it has in it. If you carry it with the pin in the firing position do not have a live round under the lowered hammer.

The early BP ball and cap colt copies generally have a place to let the hammer down between chambers but you have to manually index the cyl. If your caps stay on as good as mine you likely wont carry it with caps on it anyway. IMO these are range toys and should only be loaded when you intend to shoot it and not packed or stored with ball and powder in them.

The Ruger New Vaquero has a Transfer bar and is safe to carry topped off. It does not have a half cock position and can be loaded/unloaded with the hammer down by opening the loading gate.

I'm not 100% sure about the gen3 Colts (I don't have one of those). Someone else may have more info on this.
 
Last edited:
I'm not 100% sure about the gen3 Colts (I don't have one of those) but I think they have a transfer bar safety also. Gen 1 & 2 don't I think. Someone else may have more info on this.
There is NO transfer bar safety system in the Third Generation Colt SAA. I had mine apart, to see about a functioning problem, and am quite certain. (The functioning problem was simply poor fitting, such a shame to be found in a just-purchased new gun.)
 
Cimarron is an importer. They sell SAA replicas (Colt 1873 type) made by Uberti and Pietta. Most of the current Uberti 1873s have the Cattleman 2 passive safety, a retracting firing pin. I think Uberti still recommends keeping the hammer down on an empty chamber. The Piettas are pretty true to the Colt design which means load five.

Your gun, your responsibility. Read the manual.
This is your answer to the SAA italian clone. After tons of research and reading. Uberti low key recommends hammer on a empty (3-click Cattleman 2 design).

Peitta is stright up 4-click and load it like the cowboys when riding your nag! <<(reference from Django, hope that was not derogatory)
 
I have two Cimmarrons. One is an Uberti I bought around two years ago and it doesn't have any safety features. One is a Pietta that I bought this summer. It had a longer cylinder pin that functioned as a safety if you pushed it forward, but it wasn't reliable (didn't stay in place well), so I replaced it with a regular cylinder pin.

They're both range toys, so IMHO they don't need "safety features".


 
Two questions about two different guns.
Both questions asked to me by different friends.

1. Is it safe to carry a new S&W Model 27 classic with a full cylinder? I've done so for years, just assuming it must have a passive safety built in, but I couldn't actually find information on S&W's website about what safety that model has. I'm assuming it has a transfer bar.

2. Is it safe to carry a Cim SAA clone with a full cylinder since it has a floating firing pin? I've always loaded 1, skipped 1, loaded 4, and left the hammer on an empty chamber. From what I can tell, the pin doesn't extend to the primer unless the trigger is held. Barring dropping the gun/smacking the hammer really hard (Since it is in a good holster and looped down/not going anywhere) It would appear to be safe in theory. There is also putting the hammer down between rounds in the cylinder. I've tested that with 45 colt snap caps, and the gun has yet to rotate back overtop of a cartridge.

Thanks for the input!
Yes on the M27.

Not really on the Cimarron. The floating pin is supposed to make it safe to load 6, but the literature with Uberti guns still cautions against it. I don't know why they would design that safety mechanism if it wasn't safe, but that's the lawyers for you.

The floating firing pin design eliminated the first "click" when pulling the hammer back, which on the original SAA design pulled the firing pin just behind the recoil shield so it didn't rest directly on the primer. I'd rather have the original 4-click action myself, but my Uberti SAA (same as the Cimarron)) also has that floating pin design. The pin is supposed to float unless the finger puts constant pressure on the trigger. I've seen a couple of videos that show how to defeat it, but I'd rather find an old style hammer. I've not had any function issues with mine, so I guess I'll leave it alone.
 
You can look into the space between the hammer and the firing pin on the SAA as you cock the pistol to see if it has a "transfer bar safety." It's a thin flattened piece of metal that rises only when the trigger is squeezed. When the trigger is pulled, the hammer strikes the transfer bar which transfers the force of the hammer to the firing pin. Without the pull of the trigger the hammer cannot physically make contact with the firing pin, making it safe to carry with all cylinders loaded.

You can probably google "transfer bar safety" for your specific model to learn more about it.
 
Not really on the Cimarron. The floating pin is supposed to make it safe to load 6, but the literature with Uberti guns still cautions against it. I don't know why they would design that safety mechanism if it wasn't safe, but that's the lawyers for you.
This. Bought one of the 'retreating firing pin' Taylor marketed SAAs, not realizing how it worked. Since I didn't really trust it anyway, I replaced it with an original type. Taylor was great about selling me a traditional four-clicks hammer, and it works fine. IMHO, old style guns should work like the old guns; the manual safety on my '92 Miroku Winchester pisses me off, but at least I can ignore it. The last of the domestic '94s had a really obnoxious crossbolt safety.
Moon
 
This. Bought one of the 'retreating firing pin' Taylor marketed SAAs, not realizing how it worked. Since I didn't really trust it anyway, I replaced it with an original type. Taylor was great about selling me a traditional four-clicks hammer, and it works fine. IMHO, old style guns should work like the old guns; the manual safety on my '92 Miroku Winchester pisses me off, but at least I can ignore it. The last of the domestic '94s had a really obnoxious crossbolt safety.
Moon
I bought a Uberti Cattleman because the reviews said it was a four click gun with no additional safety mechanism. What I received was a Cattleman II with a cylinder pin safety safety. I was irked, but kept the gun anyway. I rarely just pull the hammer back to hear it click four times and other than that its a fine gun.
 
Howdy

Over the years there have been various changes regarding hammer blocks in Smith and Wesson double action revolvers with side swinging cylinders. This is the lockwork of a 38 Military and Police 1st Model (Model of 1899). The mechanism is quite different from later S&W double action revolvers. Note the lack of a rebound slide. Notice too, there is no hammer block. All revolvers with side swinging cylinders must have a rebounding hammer, so the cylinder can be swung out without the firing pin getting stuck in a fired primer. In this photo the hammer is down in the 'at rest' position. It has been cammed back by the part below the hammer and the hammer is about 1/16" away from its stop on the frame. If the hammer spur were to be struck with a strong blow, it was possible for parts to break, allowing the firing pin to strike a primer in a loaded chamber. However this was relatively unlikely, this system was much more robust than the system used in the old Colt Single Action revolvers.

GR90Vh.jpg





This is the mechanism from 38 M&P that left the factory around 1908. There is no hammer block. Note how the bump on top of the rebound slide has wedged the hammer back from the frame, pulling the firing pin back. A strong enough blow to the hammer spur could possibly break parts, allowing the firing pin to strike a cartridge under the hammer, but it was relatively unlikely to happen.

t1tSZf.jpg





Over the years S&W has used three distinct styles of hammer blocks. This is the first type. I have positioned the hand in the slot it occupies in the side plate. The hammer block is a piece of spring steel, peened in place in the side plate. The rectangular tab at the top of the hammer block extends toward us in this photo. When at rest, the tab at the top of the hammer block rested between the hammer and the frame, preventing the hammer from going forward all the way. When the hand rose up, it pushed a spring loaded pin in. The pin in turn pushed the hammer block down into its slot, withdrawing the top tab from between the frame and the hammer, allowing the hammer to fall all the way. Sorry, I do not have an exact date for when this style of hammer block first showed up, but the revolver this side plate is off of shipped in 1920.

0oLnJS.jpg





Smith and Wesson has always striven to reduce cost to manufacture. This is a later style of hammer block, with less parts. Again, the tab at the top of the hammer block was normally in position between the hammer and the frame. Notice the tab on the side of this hammer block. When the hand rose, the ramp on the backside of the hand engaged the tab on the side of the hammer block, pushing it down into its slot in the side plate, allowing the hammer to fall all the way.

W0f61M.jpg





In 1944 (not 1945) a sailor was killed when a Victory Model Smith and Wesson fell to the deck of a warship. I have heard several versions of this story, but the most believable one I heard is that a pilot was climbing out of the cockpit of his plane on an aircraft carrier, and his revolver fell to the deck. If this version is true, the revolver would have fallen quite a distance as he climbed off the wing of his plane, and when it landed on its hammer it discharged, killing the sailor. An investigation found that hardened cosmoline had probably prevented the spring steel hammer block from moving forward to the 'safe' position, and the force had been enough to break enough parts and the revolver discharged. S&W was in danger of losing their lucrative contracts with the military, so all the engineers were called in, and within a week a new style of hammer block had been designed. The new hammer block is the thin, slanted piece of steel. I have positioned it as it sits in the revolver with the hammer down. It rides in a slot in the side plate. This hammer block is actually redundant. Notice the bump at the top of the rebound slide is keeping the hammer back away from the frame. The hammer block is resting in position, but the hammer is not touching it. There is a pin in the side of the rebound slide. When the rebound slide is pulled back, in either single action or double action mode, the pin will pull the hammer block down, allowing the hammer to fall all the way. This style of hammer block has been in every revolver S&W has made since 1944. All revolvers with this style of hammer block are completely safe to carry fully loaded. This particular 44 Hand Ejector 4th Model shipped in 1955.

dylFeT.jpg





Colt patented the Positive Lock mechanism in 1905. A hammer block prevented the hammer from falling all the way until the trigger was pulled or the hammer cocked. The arrow is pointing to the hammer block in this Colt Detective Special that shipped in 1934.

MwbWOA.jpg





While I'm at it, these are the lockwork parts of a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army. The lower arrow is pointing to the sear, the tip of the trigger. The upper arrow is pointing to the so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer. First, notice how thin the tip of the sear is. Next notice the overhanging lip on the 'safety cock' notch. If the sear is resting in the 'safety cock' notch, it would not take much of a blow to the hammer spur to snap off the sear and allow the hammer to fall, firing a round under the hammer. Anyone who is familiar with these revolvers knows to NEVER carry it fully loaded with six rounds, but to ALWAYS keep an empty chamber under the hammer. The parts of all three generations of Colts, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd share these features, none are made with any sort of hammer block. This system is considerably more fragile than any of the designs by Smith and Wesson. Yes, some Italian replicas of Colts were imported with a two position cylinder base pin. This was done so they could be imported. The idea is if the pin is in the rear position, it will block the hammer from falling. Not a practical safety device, one will not want to stop and pull the pin forward if one is suddenly confronted by bad guys.

7bdIs8.jpg





This is a photo of a style of hammer block that Uberti was using on their imported revolvers a bunch of years ago. The part below the firing pin actuated a hammer block at the bottom of the hammer that prevented the hammer from falling all the way unless the trigger was pulled.

QDKSc3.jpg





Since the mid 1970s all Ruger revolvers have had a Transfer Bar, not a hammer block. The transfer bar transfers the blow of the hammer to the frame mounted firing pin. These revolvers are completely safe to carry fully loaded, whereas the older Three Screw Rugers are not. They do not have a hammer block or transfer bar, and can discharge if the hammer spur is struck by a heavy blow. Just like a Colt, the old Three Screw Rugers must never be carried fully loaded.

I have very little experience with the new Uberits, the ones with the floating hammer. The idea is they should be safe to carry fully loaded. However I was shooting one a few years ago and it did not fire every time I pulled the trigger. Probably a burr or something inside was preventing the firing pin from moving forward all the way.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top